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Dragon Age: Bioware striving for same experience for PC and consoles.

Remember when games would push the limit on the pc then their engine would be tweaked and chopped until the game worked on consoles, usually with reduced visuals but basically the same gameplay.


I miss those days.
 
Aaron said:
You'll have to define 'depth' first. If you mean in story, what about KOTOR? If you mean in game mechanics, what about Morrowind?
I can see it with story or single character game mechanics. But I don't think I've ever seen a real time squad based tactical rpg that worked well on consoles with a controller.

In the same way that I've never seen an RTS like warcraft work well on consoles with a controller.

You can force it... but it will never work as well. Either you get a clumsy interface where you are controlling a mouse cursor with a controller, or things get dumbed down and a lot more AI control has to be added to compensate for the decreased control and reactionary ability that the player has.

I do think people give bioware too much credit for the depth of options like is being described here with class choices, certain spells, etc. I think that has more to do with trying to faithfully reconstruct the D&D ruleset vs making your own ruleset than it has to do with PCs vs Consoles. The D&D ruleset has had, what, decades to mature? Of course it is going to be more complex than anything created for a single game.

And I do think PC games have had better stories/characters, but that that is more coincidence than anything to do with PC's specifically.
 
Durante said:
I wasn't aware that Obsidian won't release a game in 09.



This is news to me. I had to look on the Wiki page to even know what you are talking about.

Alpha Protocol? It looks interesting, but not a classic RPG cut in the mold of BG2 and the like.
 
Durante said:
Some people like to complain about the D&D ruleset, but I still haven't seen a game not based on a pen&paper ruleset that offers even a fraction of the variety of strategies available in, say, BG2.
slayn said:
I do think people give bioware too much credit for the depth of options like is being described here with class choices, certain spells, etc. I think that has more to do with trying to faithfully reconstruct the D&D ruleset vs making your own ruleset than it has to do with PCs vs Consoles. The D&D ruleset has had, what, decades to mature? Of course it is going to be more complex than anything created for a single game..
gollumsluvslave said:
That is true about BG etc, but most of that was due to THE implementation of AD&D rules in a game, not because of Bioware perse, IMO. Take AD&D away from Bioware and they lose a lot of what made BG2 what it was - i.e. the depth was all AD&D.
So I'm not the only one who thinks that.
 
Azih said:
ESPECIALLY since he goes on to freaking say They're freaking changing the interface and the controls on the console versions so grow a pair and stop having hysterics.


It's just lip service. He knows the PC gamer base and he knows what pitfalls to avoid.
 
ToxicAdam said:
Really, Bioware died with Jade Empire. They got a taste of that console money and never looked back.

As a PC fan, with the absolute death of the single player RPG experience, we have no choice but to bend over and accept whatever they do. You may bitch and complain, but you will still play this game because nothing else will be out there that will even be close.

Even if it does have a ton of flaws, it will still probably be the top (single player) RPG of the year, just by default.

The Witcher's sequel/expansion (likely due out next year) will give it a good run for its money though, and the next NWN2 expansion as well.
 
Wait, PC and console have different interfaces right? This better be a Shadowrun situation, where plugging in a gamepad causes the interface to switch to the console one, so PC isn't left with a gimped interface.
 
My problem with this is not that the game might be 'dumbed down', but because it usually ends up with a horrible interface. KOTOR and Oblivion, oh god.
 
Minsc said:
The Witcher's sequel/expansion (likely due out next year) will give it a good run for its money though, and the next NWN2 expansion as well.


Yes, of course. I was referring to new properties.
 
proposition said:
My problem with this is not that the game might be 'dumbed down', but because it usually ends up with a horrible interface. KOTOR and Oblivion, oh god.

This x1000.

Oblivion's inventory system was a tragedy considering you could pick up anything that wasn't nailed down, but only see 10 items at a time.
 
ToxicAdam said:
This is news to me. I had to look on the Wiki page to even know what you are talking about.

Alpha Protocol? It looks interesting, but not a classic RPG cut in the mold of BG2 and the like.

Also I believe a new NWN expansion. Mask of the Betrayer is suppose to be the best thing since sliced bread
 
MrPing1000 said:
Remember when games would push the limit on the pc then their engine would be tweaked and chopped until the game worked on consoles, usually with reduced visuals but basically the same gameplay.


I miss those days.

Those days are gone forever. If you look at the latest computer sales for the UK, it shows a very disturbing trend for PC game developers.
70% of all computers sales in UK were laptops with remainder being desktops. All these laptops have integrated GFX cards, can't run latest games at all.
It was 50-50% split last year and it only going to get less % for desktops in the future.

The only way to guarantee sales for PC developer is to develop for consoles either in tandem with PCs or consoles exclusively.
 
Minsc said:
The Witcher's sequel/expansion (likely due out next year) will give it a good run for its money though, and the next NWN2 expansion as well.

Wait, there's another Witcher game coming? Got a link?
 
HK-47 said:
Mask of the Betrayer is suppose to be the best thing since Planescape:Torment
Fixed, though I disagree with EviLore on that. But that's most likely because I chose to play the one alignment (
Chaotic Good
) that gets the most unsatisfying ending by far in MotB.
 
proposition said:
My problem with this is not that the game might be 'dumbed down', but because it usually ends up with a horrible interface. KOTOR and Oblivion, oh god.


Mass Effect controlled nicely on the pc.
 
kevm3 said:
The depth of the combat and the 'social experience' being simplified is why people are angry. DA was supposed to be the game catered towards PC gamers after Bioware catered to console gamers with Kotor, Jade Empire and Mass Effect.

Now, back to what makes it so special. In BG2, from a purely combat perspective, mages play COMPLETELY different than fighters. Mages aren't merely archers who throw balls of fire instead of arrows. They can summon elementals who may or may not be friendly towards you... use combo spells to wreak havoc on enemies. For example, entangle some enemies and then spam the room with poison clouds. That's just the simple part. What makes it so good is the DEPTH. Fighters play different than mages, but fighters of different kits play completely different from each other. A barbarian, who can use armor, will play different than a Kensei, who can't use armor but gets attack bonuses. Let's not even get into dual classing.

Now let me give you a direct example of the complexity of combat and why it is good. You see a room full of golems that vastly overpower you. However, there is a treasure chest full of items that you want to get. So how do you get to it? You could take a brute force approach, attempt to cast strength and defense boosting spells and attempt to fight the golems, or you could use smarts and cast invisibility on one of your guys, have the mage summon some creatures... Make the creatures walk in the room and fight with the golems... While those summoned creatures are drawing the attention of the golems, you use the invisible guy to sneak in the room, grab the treasure and run out.

From a social perspective, what was so good about these games? Planescape Torment wasn't made by Bioware, but used the Infinity Engine. Play that game and see if you can tolerate most of the simplicity that are the stories in console rpgs. With BG2, there are tons of subtleties. For example, you can have a party with two females who are fighting over you and you have to make the choice of turning one down. If one of them gets too unhappy, they might leave the party or constantly complain. If you are a good party and you invite an evil character, he may eventually leave because he is tired of your good deeds, or just start attacking you. There are tons of conversation branches to really flesh out your character as well. The choices you make will determine whether you are consistent with the good, neutral, evil and the lawful, neutral, or chaotic alignment you chose when you began the game.

It doesn't really come across in words, but if you haven't, take the time to play BG2 with an open mind and LEARN the game and its complexities. After you do, you'll see exactly what people are complaining about. I'm the furthest thing from a PC elitist, but I'm not going to pretend like a lot of these games aren't being simplified detrimentally to cater them towards consoles.

Eh, blame them catering to consoles all you want, Bioware obviously started heading down this path with Neverwinter Nights, which was released a year before KOTOR and never saw a console release. Everything that made the combat so great in BG2 was stripped away and we were left with a Diablo clone with an adventure construction set tacked on.

I honestly don't think the real problem is them becoming a console developer, but that at some point they became so enamored with their own dialog trees and started thinking that was the whole point of them making games, rather than looking at it as a complete package. You can see this especially clearly in interviews they give around the time of both KOTOR and Jade Empire. They talk about all these good/evil choices you'll have but those games are about as binary as they come. Gone are the days of BG2 where decisions seemed to have dozens of outcomes. They still seem to be dialog focused but the game around the dialog tree seems to be getting better. Mass Effect gives me hope that they are heading in the right direction again.

The point when they broke with Black Isle as a development partner seems to mark the period where their games begin to lose the richness that they once had.
 
Minsc said:
The Witcher's sequel/expansion (likely due out next year) will give it a good run for its money though, and the next NWN2 expansion as well.

The Witcher is not complex at all. It is simpler than many console rpgs.
 
Vaporak said:
Wait, there's another Witcher game coming? Got a link?

Looks like I have to retract that, but I'd be shocked if there wasn't (and hope to hell there is). The game was a success financially, reports published of record breaking sales in various regions worldwide, total sales of over 1M (over 600K in the first three months; and there's these two threads in the witcher forums that give some hope... I just got a little confused with some old information about another Witcher project, but even still, everything is looking perfect for a prequel/sequel. The game is just a section of a bigger story already written too right?
 
dionysus said:
The Witcher is not complex at all. It is simpler than many console rpgs.
I agree that it's in no way a very complex game, but it's still for all purposes a very PC centric RPG, the sheer amount of crap you have to drag around sets it apart.
Minsc said:
Looks like I have to retract that, but I'd be shocked if there wasn't (and hope to hell there is). The game was a success financially, reports published of record breaking sales in various regions worldwide, total sales of over 1M (over 600K in the first three months; and there's these two threads in the witcher forums that give some hope... I just got a little confused with some old information about another Witcher project, but even still, everything is looking perfect for a prequel/sequel. The game is just a section of a bigger story already written too right?
The Witcher game is actually set after the books.
 
Surely the MMO that everyone is bitching about in the other thread will be PC-oriented.

I'd rather this wasn't on consoles, but its not necessarily enough to damn it, especially given the later release. I don't really care about the controls, to be honest, I just want better sidequests, better RPG systems and better characters than JE and ME.
 
I'd say something like that I'm primarily a console gamer, but I have roots in PC RPGs, and was actually looking forward to a deep PC RPG in the vein of BG2, but I'm not sure that actually means anything.

For those who still don't understand why having a console version may mean some sacrifices, imagine a later BG2 encounter with, say, a Beholder. Odds are that you would be pausing the game after every "round" and completely ordering around your mages in terms of what the situation is and what they should do next. This generally would involve around 20 or more memorized spells, not to mention one-shot items. There's also rearming your fighters, or possibly switching the ammunition for any archers.

Imagine that you'll have to pause and do all that up to 10 to 15 times in a battle.

On a PC with a mouse and keyboard, setting up a round would take about 5-10 seconds.

Imagine how long it would take with a controller and an extremely limited amount of hotkeys.

Do you really think a person playing a console would be happy stretching a 3-5 minute fight on the PC into a 15-20 minute affair simply to micromanage?

The only way they could make it palatable would be to either drastically cut down on the amount of spells and options, and dramatically ease up on the strategy of the fights. Maybe you won't have to cast breach quite as much. Maybe they'll double up on some of the buff spells effects, so casting one has the effect that two used to have. Maybe they'll ease up on immunities and defenses (like no more needing fire or acid to take out trolls definitively.) Maybe area effect spells will no longer harm your own teammates.

I think it's in those fights, the fights that players used to have to obsessively micromanage, that we'll lose that depth. Suddenly, where every round was a strategy session, it'll become set and forget once, rather than needing to constantly adapt.

Don't tell me that KOTOR was extremely deep. It's one of my favorite games, but the pool of available spells was DWARFED by BG2.

It's possible that they'll suck it up and let console players deal with those long trudges in setting up strategy. But I doubt it.
 
The game will be using a form of FFXII's gambit system. I doubt there will be much micro-managment at all. Those types of games are rare and have mostly been left in a by-gone age now. Time to move on.
 
PC gamers get Mass Effect, console games get Dragon Age. Boohoo exclusivity.

And haha, it's easy to blame consoles for Bioware dumbing down its recent game, when the blame really lies on the developer.
 
Llyranor said:
PC gamers get Mass Effect, console games get Dragon Age. Boohoo exclusivity.

And haha, it's easy to blame consoles for Bioware dumbing down its recent game, when the blame really lies on the developer.
Well said. Hail Obsidian, for they have not yet jumped the shark.
 
davepoobond said:
huh? i thought it was "built from the ground up for the pc, not possible on console"

:P

That's Starcraft 2, thank god Blizzard took a firm stance with that franchise.
 
One of my favorite experiences was entering some sort of keep where there was a werewolf that simply overpowered my party. Icouldn't kill itbecause not enough ofmy guys had the proper weapons. He was blocking this hallway so I had to do something about him to move on. I couldn't beat him with brute force, so I casted invisibility on one of my guys and had him go into a room with two doors on opposite end of each other. I had the invisible guy open both doors and then parked him by the entrance door. Then, I had one of my noninvisible guys draw the attention of the werewolf and had him follow me into the room. I closed the exit door with the guy he was following and closed the entrance door with the invisible guy and just trapped the sucker in the room and went around that room. Came back several levels more powreful, seen he was still in the room and demolished him. It's just small moments like that that made me really love the game.
 
jakershaker said:
sadshark898.jpg

Awww, sad shark is sad that Bioware is dead. Thanks EA.
 
Come, gentlemen! So a great ally has shown its deceitful nature -- do not feel betrayed. Do not fall victim to the taint of bitter pride! There is beauty in simplicity. Shed these modern trappings, and return with me to the halcyon days! The dragons may have flown, but the dungeons remain, and a friend, long forgotten, remains where you left him, like a loyal dog, ready to comfort you in your time of need:

2lxxgmq.jpg
 
Bogus said:
Come, gentlemen! So a great ally has shown its deceitful nature -- do not feel betrayed. Do not fall victim to the taint of bitter pride! There is beauty in simplicity. Shed these modern trappings, and return with me to the halcyon days! The dragons may have flown, but the dungeons remain, and a friend, long forgotten, remains where you left him, like a loyal dog, ready to comfort you in your time of need:

2lxxgmq.jpg
Perhaps the best post in this thread.

Nay, the best post on all of GAF.
 
Not sure what the big deal is. And why are people laughing? I don' t see what's so funny. GAF is a really weird place sometimes... well actually all the time.

We live in an era of money-hungry whores running an industry that was originally built by people with passion. Just like the music industry.

Anyway, Bioware can still make good games. Just not as good as BG2, the likes of which we'll never see in this epoch.
 
slayn said:
I can see it with story or single character game mechanics. But I don't think I've ever seen a real time squad based tactical rpg that worked well on consoles with a controller.

In the same way that I've never seen an RTS like warcraft work well on consoles with a controller.
Warhammer: Battle March actually controls well on a controller, even better than a PC in some ways, but the game is well suited to it being squad-based rather than a more traditional RTS. I'm not sure what you mean by 'real time' here though. Are you talking BG style where you can still pause the game and issue commands? Then I think it can be done on consoles, but I can't think of any good examples. KOTOR was clunky, while ME had such limited controls over allies.
 
LOL wtf is this. Playing the PC version with a 360 controller and the game isn't being dumbed down? Really?

Oh well, I hope they find out just as Epic did that if you try to pass off a console game as a PC title it will just be ignored as UT3 was. We'll just go back to replaying the previous superior games even if they aren't up to todays standards graphically.
 
Lonesome_Raod said:
“I even sometimes play the PC build with the Xbox 360 controller, what makes a lot of fun,” he added.

:lol :lol :lol

I may have to buy a 360 controller for this game. PC quality graphics with console like game play. Win-win for me.
 
This is especially harsh to me, playing through and absolutely loving Baldur's Gate 2 for the first time (sup Draft), and the only emotion I feel is sadness. I'm actually surprised its not anger, but the futility of it all just makes me :(

Really Bioware? Really? You literally hate your most ardent fanbase, don't you? I genuinely wouldn't be surprised at this point.
 
Minsc said:
Looks like I have to retract that, but I'd be shocked if there wasn't (and hope to hell there is). The game was a success financially, reports published of record breaking sales in various regions worldwide, total sales of over 1M (over 600K in the first three months; and there's these two threads in the witcher forums that give some hope... I just got a little confused with some old information about another Witcher project, but even still, everything is looking perfect for a prequel/sequel. The game is just a section of a bigger story already written too right?
I will be absolutely ecstatic if another Witcher game comes out.
They don't even have to change the engine. Just a new campaign would be enough to make me giddy.
 
And this is why my hopes have been so low for this game for years now: I never really had complete faith that they'd actually make it a real PC RPG. And indeed, now we get some pretty good evidence that they're not, just like KotOR before it.

... Just because I expected something like this to happen doesn't mean that it doesn't hurt much less, though. It's very, very cruel... the Baldur's Gate games are so mind-bendingly amazing, and now... "we need to make it play just as well on the 360"???? :(

Horribly, horribly disappointing, even if I didn't expect the game to be a new Baldur's Gate and expected at least some consolization.
 
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