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Dragon Ball Super |OT2| June 12: Judgment Day

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@ The Gohan and the "passing the torch" talk from the Cell Saga.

I'm another person who that didn't take for when it actually happened, so that's part of the reason I never got behind Gohan much as a character or wanted him to be the main hero. The reason it didn't take for me is because, quite frankly, Gohan stepping up to be the guy who defeats Cell is so forced and out of left field given how the entire Android/Cell saga went. The Android/Cell Saga is all about Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks for 95% of the time, from the moment Trunks shows up until Goku stops fighting Cell at the Cell Games, and Gohan is literally a background character who contributes nothing to the plot what so ever. So Gohan suddenly being the hero at the end felt extremely out of place for me and felt like the wrong way to end that storyline, which is why I think Vegeta should have been the one to end Cell.

The alternate ending someone proposed, of Vegeta going SSJ2 upon seeing Trunks die, would have been p great.

But then again, I think that seeing Gohan surpass him and save him, mellowed out Vegeta a lot, which made him the character we see in the Buu saga and then in Super, which is also p great. Dunno what Vegeta would be like if he actually was the savior/most powerful character around. A lot of what makes Vegeta work is being the eternal second place. Toriyama would be stuck trying to write him, as much as he was stuck trying to write Gohan as a protagonist.

But yeah, gotta agree that, for passing the torch to Gohan, Cell saga is probably the worst way to do it.
 
@ The Gohan and the "passing the torch" talk from the Cell Saga.

I'm another person who that didn't take for when it actually happened, so that's part of the reason I never got behind Gohan much as a character or wanted him to be the main hero. The reason it didn't take for me is because, quite frankly, Gohan stepping up to be the guy who defeats Cell is so forced and out of left field given how the entire Android/Cell saga went. The Android/Cell Saga is all about Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks for 95% of the time, from the moment Trunks shows up until Goku stops fighting Cell at the Cell Games, and Gohan is literally a background character who contributes nothing to the plot what so ever. So Gohan suddenly being the hero at the end felt extremely out of place for me and felt like the wrong way to end that storyline, which is why I think Vegeta should have been the one to end Cell.

Perhaps the reason people feel this way is because they didn't watch the History of Trunks special midway through the saga like they were supposed to. To me, that provided plenty of build up for Gohan, given that he fought the androids for so many years and trained trunks and gradually got beaten down until he was eventually overwhelmed.

The alternate ending someone proposed, of Vegeta going SSJ2 upon seeing Trunks die, would have been p great.

That would have been a sort of lame use of the death of the main character of the series, though. Goku's death provided a bit of final emotional weight to Gohan defeating cell when all the chips were down. It would have been kind of lame if a character who had been in maybe 30 episodes total of the entire series stretching back to dragonball provided the end to the saga moments after Goku died.
 
Am I alone in feeling the entire Android/Cell Arc was in fact the worst thing in the main Dragon Ball series?
It had a cool fight or two but it's indeed my least favourite set of arcs when compared to the others.

I prefer the Android arcs over Cell.
 
I can't believe it's only Wednesday T_T , still got 4 more days

On top of that my Supernatural fix won't be met tomorrow, I don't think I'm going to make it.
 
That would have been a sort of lame use of the death of the main character of the series, though. Goku's death provided a bit of final emotional weight to Gohan defeating cell when all the chips were down. It would have been kind of lame if a character who had been in maybe 30 episodes total of the entire series stretching back to dragonball provided the end to the saga moments after Goku died.

I think it would have still had emotional weight for Vegeta though. As a rival, Goku was literally the only thing that kept pushing Vegeta and Goku was the only thing Vegeta remotely had to a "friend" at that point in time. Plus, on top of Goku dying, Vegeta did just watch Cell murder his son right in front of him. Plus you could write in something along the lines of Vegeta feeling upset at seeing one of the last pure Saiyans dying.

Perhaps the reason people feel this way is because they didn't watch the History of Trunks special midway through the saga like they were supposed to. To me, that provided plenty of build up for Gohan, given that he fought the androids for so many years and trained trunks and gradually got beaten down until he was eventually overwhelmed.

Eh, History of Trunks wouldn't have changed my opinion of Gohan at the end of the Cell Saga though. They're too pretty different characters in my opinion and Teen Gohan rising up to beat Cell doesn't magically get any weight to it since he's not the same Gohan that couldn't overcome the Androids. Android Timeline Gohan is a pretty awesome character, though
because he's basically Goku with a different haircut and acts nothing like Kid/Teen Gohan

Am I alone in feeling the entire Android/Cell Arc was in fact the worst thing in the main Dragon Ball series?

The Android/Cell arc shits the bed pretty much once the Cell Games become a thing. The pace of that entire arc goes along at a pretty nice brisk pace but then the Cell Games kind of bring everything to a grinding halt. And then (as I said before) it becomes GOHANWINSLOL at the end. That being said, the entire Android/Cell arc is pretty damn great from the start all the way up until Vegeta does the Final Flash in my opinion. I'd put the Buu Saga below it. The Saiyan and Namek arcs are way better though.
 
@ The Gohan and the "passing the torch" talk from the Cell Saga.

I'm another person who that didn't take for when it actually happened, so that's part of the reason I never got behind Gohan much as a character or wanted him to be the main hero. The reason it didn't take for me is because, quite frankly, Gohan stepping up to be the guy who defeats Cell is so forced and out of left field given how the entire Android/Cell saga went. The Android/Cell Saga is all about Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks for 95% of the time, from the moment Trunks shows up until Goku stops fighting Cell at the Cell Games, and Gohan is literally a background character who contributes nothing to the plot what so ever. So Gohan suddenly being the hero at the end felt extremely out of place for me and felt like the wrong way to end that storyline, which is why I think Vegeta should have been the one to end Cell.

Gohan isn't prominent during the Android saga but he's easily the most prominent in the Cell saga.

Gohan was the only z warrior left in this future timeline and died because he wasn't strong enough. That was the first bit of foreshadowing but you can only really appreciate it after the cell saga is finished. But the cell saga itself is just full of Gohan.

- Gohan finding Cell's time capsule with Trunks
- Gohan going into the ROSAT
- Gohan turning SSJ
- Gohan helping save a city as he waits for the cell games (might be filler)
- Gohan wishes he could beat Cell when he blows out his candles on his 11th birthday
- Gohan faces his fears, self doubt and overcomes his nature to turn SSJ2

I really don't see how this was out of the blue at all, especially during the Cell saga. Gohan was constantly there and we always knew he'd play some sort of role because of his importance during saiyan and namek saga.
 
Everyone should've known Gohan was going to be the hero here.

Everyone is freaking out about Goku at 50% power and Gohan is standing right next to him unfazed.
 
That's because he had already seen his strength in the Time Chamber.

Maybe, but not really. Gohan thought the entire time that Goku was holding back against Cell and presumably himself in the RoSaT. Gohan doesn't realize until he's told by Goku that he just saw his dad go 100%.

That's deep into the arc, right before the cell games

There were other hints, like Gohan being the one in the future to be the last man standing, Goku wanting to train him, and his involvement in finding Cell's cocoon. It was just tiny hints here and there because Goku choosing Gohan to beat Cell is meant to be a big shock moment the first time, and then when you go back, it makes sense.
 
Maybe, but not really. Gohan thought the entire time that Goku was holding back against Cell and presumably himself in the RoSaT. Gohan doesn't realize until he's told by Goku that he just saw his dad go 100%.



There were other hints, like Gohan being the one in the future to be the last man standing, Goku wanting to train him, and his involvement in finding Cell's cocoon. It was just tiny hints here and there because Goku choosing Gohan to beat Cell is meant to be a big shock moment the first time, and then when you go back, it makes sense.

Exactly. It's supposed to come out of the blue and completely shock you. But when you rewatch both sagas again, there were plenty of hints on Gohan being the one readied for the final battle.

It was some of the best character development we've seen in DBZ.
 
Perhaps the reason people feel this way is because they didn't watch the History of Trunks special midway through the saga like they were supposed to. To me, that provided plenty of build up for Gohan, given that he fought the androids for so many years and trained trunks and gradually got beaten down until he was eventually overwhelmed.

That would have been a sort of lame use of the death of the main character of the series, though. Goku's death provided a bit of final emotional weight to Gohan defeating cell when all the chips were down. It would have been kind of lame if a character who had been in maybe 30 episodes total of the entire series stretching back to dragonball provided the end to the saga moments after Goku died.

I think that the Trunks special kind of double fucks up the Android saga, since Trunks himself doesn't help a lot in the saga (until he goes back to the future).

If you see the Android/Cell saga as Trunks' story (and why wouldn't you? He is the one who starts it by killing Freeza, and then you have this whole OVA centered around Trunks and he is the one moving the plot) he should have some very deep developments during his stay in the past, but the way it plays out, FTrunks does some very dumb things, and ends up being killed by Cell. He makes acquaintances with his father, and that's it.

So, if you saw it as the history of how Trunks met his father, Vegeta saving him would have been a great plot development. Instead, it will take until Buu to have Vegeta hug Trunks. Which is another reason the Buu saga is awesome!

I do not think that the History of Trunks saga centers so much on Gohan's failure, as much as it centers on _everyone_ failing at stopping the androids. Gohan just happens to be the survivor, and his death triggers Trunks SSJ (IIRC?) but the blame falls on all the Z-warriors except Goku, and the plot points that it might not have happened if Goku had lived. It is the main reason Trunks carries medicine with him.




Also lol at assigning Gohan and Trunks finding the Cell coccoon together having any deep narrative meaning. Young Gohan and Trunks barely interact at all during the saga, which is ridiculous for a time traveler who meets a younger version of the beloved master he saw die. Indeed, as I always say, FTrunks and Young Gohan not interacting is one of the main problems with the Cell saga, and one that undermines the idea that the android/Cell saga was all about Gohan. Even FTrunks didn't give a fuck about Young Gohan.


Also also, look at how Gohan's SSJ2 transformation is triggered. Goku goes SSJ due to Krillin dying, Trunks goes SSJ due to Gohan dying. Gohan himself? SSJ2 due to an android he never spoke to dying. I think they didn't speak before? It is super dumb anyway.

If Trunks death didn't trigger Vegeta's SSJ2, at least get me Gohan go SSJ2 seeing Trunks die. It would have mirrored History of Trunks perfectly!. Maybe it is because Toriyama didn't write History of Trunks, so he didn't feel the need, or saw the logic, of his android saga mirroring this OVA he didn't write. Of course that also would have been lame too, given how FTrunks and YGohan only hang out for the Coccoon discovery. Oh noes that guy I've spent with almost an hour died aaargh -> SSJ2.

Cell saga requires a ton of rewriting to work as Gohan's coming-of-age story.
 
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Awww yeaaahhh!
 
I think the birthday thing is also filler btw.

It is but the anime did a better job of showing that build up. Not to mention his entire "potential" shown since the start of the Saiyan saga. Beating Cell was basically the payoff to that.

Edit: I should really catch up on Multiverse...
 
It is but the anime did a better job of showing that build up. Not to mention his entire "potential" shown since the start of the Saiyan saga. Beating Cell was basically the payoff to that.

My point is that Toriyama himself was just carrying the whole Cell-saga-as-Gohan's-story p badly.

I also just checked, and the manga version of Trunks story has him becoming a SSJ before Gohan dies; hell, it opens with SSJ Gohan and Trunks training. So that's another thing against Gohan and Trunks having much of a relationship. Gohan is just the guy who trained Trunks, but Trunks is really interested in Vegeta. You can see this when Trunks meets everyone after defeating Cell. Trunks pays attention to his fathers, but not to Gohan. He will make an offhand comment that Gohan trained him, but that's just because someone needed to train him. It may as well have been Krillin, Tenshinhan or Roshi for all it mattered in the plot.

So yeah, if you watch the anime and the Trunks special, Gohan's has just a smidge of foreshadowing for him being the final hero, but in the story that Toriyama actually penned, Gohan saving everyone is completely out of the blue and p non-sensical. Instead, Goku, Trunks or Vegeta each had a lot more dramatic right to be the hero to defeat Cell.

What I am trying to say is that Gohan's heroism was filler (I keed, I keed)
 
Am I alone in feeling the entire Android/Cell Arc was in fact the worst thing in the main Dragon Ball series?

Overall, it's a pretty shitty arc because it basically becomes an arms race with power ups and transformations. There's really nothing going on during it except that, lol. At least with Frieza and Namek, it was a race to collect the dragon balls and the conflicts were born from that.

The best arc is still the Saiyans from a story and a fight perspective, at least for a Z story arc.
 
I don't think Vegeta deserved anything, but an ass beating in the Cell Saga. The guy was a major jackass in that saga. I was rooting for Perfect Cell to beat his ass after the transformation and he did so elegantly.
 
My point is that Toriyama himself was just carrying the whole Cell-saga-as-Gohan's-story p badly.

I also just checked, and the manga version of Trunks story has him becoming a SSJ before Gohan dies; hell, it opens with SSJ Gohan and Trunks training. So that's another thing against Gohan and Trunks having much of a relationship. Gohan is just the guy who trained Trunks, but Trunks is really interested in Vegeta. You can see this when Trunks meets everyone after defeating Cell. Trunks pays attention to his fathers, but not to Gohan. He will make an offhand comment that Gohan trained him, but that's just because someone needed to train him. It may as well have been Krillin, Tenshinhan or Roshi for all it mattered in the plot.

So yeah, if you watch the anime and the Trunks special, Gohan's has just a smidge of foreshadowing for him being the final hero, but in the story that Toriyama actually penned, Gohan saving everyone is completely out of the blue and p non-sensical. Instead, Goku, Trunks or Vegeta each had a lot more dramatic right to be the hero to defeat Cell.

What I am trying to say is that Gohan's heroism was filler (I keed, I keed)

Toriyama does make shit up as he goes but at least the whole "Gohan has the most potential" thing was realized eventually, a couple times. And recently brought up again so maybe Toriyama does try to tie stuff together some times lol.
 
Vegeta's role in the Android/Cell arcs was to be the Worf. He was never going to get the W.

Trunks is a young fighter who is naive. This much is clear when he decides to use Ultra SSJ against Cell. He was never going to get the W.

Goku is the hero. Always has been. Everyone wants to fight him. Makes sense that he gets the W.

Wait!

Ever sense Gohan's introduction, he has been known as this boy with untapped power. Him breaking out of Raditz pod, him attacking Nappa, all of Namek, and then finally, gets a chance to train with his dad, THE HERO, for one year in preparation to fight Cell. Goku is a fighting genius and knows his son's potential. Goku himself was a no one and trained into a someone. Gohan is equivalent to a someone who can be trained! We know he has a power that is basically limitless because of what he has done ever since his introduction, and has never had a one on one training segment with the hero.

IT"S PERFECT. The son of the hero becomes the hero. Scene end. If Toriyama didn't do this and had someone else beat Cell, he would've been a hack.

Buu saga sucks, Toriyama had no idea what he was doing.
 
Cell saga only started going downhill once 17 was absorbed, loved the stuff before that with horror movie villain Cell and the mystery that led up to him. 1st form Cell was very unique in that he was actively avoiding the heroes, just skulking around trying to get stronger so one day he can take them on.
 
https://www.reddit.com/r/dbz/comments/4emo4v/dbs_english_dub_new_game_and_kai_buu_saga_english/

tl;dr xenoverse 2, buu kai dub, and super funimation dub (hopefully july according to schemmel) in summer!

I only care about Xenoverse 2. What modders are doing with XV1 is great but we really need one with a much expanded roster and more content.

A game that used Heroes as a starting point and told an expanded story using Mira/Towa time nonsense with new what if characters and stuff would be excellent.
 
Vegeta's role in the Android/Cell arcs was to be the Worf. He was never going to get the W.

Trunks is a young fighter who is naive. This much is clear when he decides to use Ultra SSJ against Cell. He was never going to get the W.

Goku is the hero. Always has been. Everyone wants to fight him. Makes sense that he gets the W.

Wait!

Ever sense Gohan's introduction, he has been known as this boy with untapped power. Him breaking out of Raditz pod, him attacking Nappa, all of Namek, and then finally, gets a chance to train with his dad, THE HERO, for one year in preparation to fight Cell. Goku is a fighting genius and knows his son's potential. Goku himself was a no one and trained into a someone. Gohan is equivalent to a someone who can be trained! We know he has a power that is basically limitless because of what he has done ever since his introduction, and has never had a one on one training segment with the hero.

IT"S PERFECT. The son of the hero becomes the hero. Scene end. If Toriyama didn't do this and had someone else beat Cell, he would've been a hack.

Buu saga sucks, Toriyama had no idea what he was doing.

This is honestly part of the reason I don't really like Gohan. Goku earned pretty much all of his strength and worked hard to get it. Gohan basically had his power handed to him and just needed to figure out how to use it. This is why I'm perfectly okay with how Adult Gohan turned out because he never had the same drive as his dad.
 
I have finally caught up! Loving this tournament arc so far. Though goku figuring Hit out and apparently having some new, secret ability seems like an asspull, but it's whatever. My favorite episode so far was the one with Vegeta and Cabba. Beautiful episode.

The worst parts have been the Beerus and Frieza fights, especially the latter. Maybe it's because I'd already seen the movies, and the fact they had to stretch the fights out for multiple episodes, but Jesus, I almost wanted to stop watching from all the dumb, unnecessary talking. And the fact that the fights are "choreographed" almost the same as the previous series'. It left me a bit bored.

Also, I hate Chumpa or whatever the brother's name is.
 
This is honestly part of the reason I don't really like Gohan. Goku earned pretty much all of his strength and worked hard to get it. Gohan basically had his power handed to him and just needed to figure out how to use it. This is why I'm perfectly okay with how Adult Gohan turned out because he never had the same drive as his dad.


Yep.
 
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