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Dragon Ball Super |OT7| Please wait for Tien to be cool.

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E

erlim

yes, that talented of a member
Rutger said:
I'm not really sure what your point is here. "Frieza should take Buu's place because he might have lost early"?

This doesn't change that Buu fit much more naturally into the story than the last minute scramble to try(and fail) to convince everyone that bringing back Frieza is a good idea. Frieza hasn't done anything to show us that he's more than a marketing ploy.
Click to expand...

I'm just saying that the creative team was less likely to push Buu anyway when he doesn't have a rivalry with Goku and Mr Satan seems to not be central in the narrative right now. They probably would have sidelined him anyway.
 
E

Eylos

Banned
ffbuntz4nnbz.jpg


Cool Black figure

And dragon ball FF logo

m0bjmpmehmbz.jpg
 
F

Fulminator

Member
Skeeter49 said:
They could have made Episode of Bardock canon.
Looks at Kale. "That form. Was that the form the great Lord Chill told of, the one we should fear at all cost, the legendary SSJ"?



That was Goku encouraging her to want to fight him, not him saying she'll realistically achieve SSJ3.
And I still think they're setting up Ikari to be the true SSJ3, so that's a potential factor as well.
Click to expand...

What do you mean they're setting it up to be the real ss3? Setting it up how? By not once mentioning, acknowledging, or explaining it in the show? By not even having it in the manga? Pretty sure it was a toei invention that we will never see or hear of again unless trunks comes back
 
C

Chaotic-Strike

Banned
Rutger said:
Not really. They had Buu until they clumsily wrote him out of the story to force Frieza back in.
Buu being nearly indestructible along with his shapeshifting/stretching would probably make him much harder to ring out even if he isn't as much of a powerhouse as the current Frieza.

And so far Frieza has done nothing but act as evil as he's always been. He's tacked on right now with nothing new to do and no real place in the story yet.
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They've already shown that Buu won't really fight earnestly unless Mr. Satan gets hurt and rarely takes things seriously enough. It's hardly clumsily written when Buu has done it before during ROF and it's now pretty much an established part of his character now.

As for doing something major well of course not. He hasn't been the focus of the latest episodes. He's done just about as much as Gohan, Piccolo, Tien has done, and I don't see you calling them out.

Yet we're complaining about justification with Freeza when people like Master Roshi and Tien are on the team, for some reason.
 
Sony

Sony

Nintendo
Chaotic-Strike said:
They've already shown that Buu won't really fight earnestly unless Mr. Satan gets hurt and rarely takes things seriously enough. It's hardly clumsily written when Buu has done it before during ROF and it's now pretty much an established part of his character now.

.
Click to expand...

Then why did he train to become fit Buu?

I-hate-u said:
How do you give characters like Kale/Caulifla/17/Trunks moments to shine without ass pulls?
Click to expand...

I said it before and I'll say it again, the huge power delta between Beerus and Goku that was the foundation of Super ruined the series.
 
S

Skeeter49

Member
Buu can heal people. The one annoying thing with Buu is they would have dumbed down his abilities because he's actually OP in a tournament like this.

Fulminator said:
What do you mean they're setting it up to be the real ss3? Setting it up how? By not once mentioning, acknowledging, or explaining it in the show? By not even having it in the manga? Pretty sure it was a toei invention that we will never see or hear of again unless trunks comes back
Click to expand...

I don't think they are setting it up. I think they're going to. They can still have the manga differ. Caulifla probably won't even be in the manga.

It would justify and explain Trunks form, while making sense as a natural step beyond SSJ2, since the SSJ3 we've come to know can only be achieved by cheating death or cheating time. And just prove the SSJ3 we've known is trash once and for all.

They probably won't, but I still think there's a chance. If not, then either it's a hybrid form of having god ki since they're not fully saiyan, or it'll never be mentioned again.
 
R

Rutger

Banned
shadowsdarknes said:
Yet. He may actually do something interesting. If he finds out that killing a kai kills a god of destruction, he may try something. Maybe not now, but eventually.
Click to expand...

I don't know. If he does go that route then he's likely to become the final boss of this or another arc, which he has already done twice before so that doesn't really interest me.

It's going to be difficult for the writers to give him something to do and have it also be different and interesting. His personality is too one-dimensionally evil.

erlim said:
I'm just saying that the creative team was less likely to push Buu anyway when he doesn't have a rivalry with Goku and Mr Satan seems to not be central in the narrative right now. They probably would have sidelined him anyway.
Click to expand...

Then what the hell is Tien even doing here, haha.
I really don't think "They probably would have sidelined him anyway" is a good excuse for sidelining Buu, especially when the writers were already having some fun with how creative they could get with him in fights before they needed a quick way to bring Frieza back.
 
F

Fulminator

Member
Skeeter49 said:
Buu can heal people. The one annoying thing with Buu is they would have dumbed down his abilities because he's actually OP in a tournament like this.
Click to expand...
He's also free to leave blobs around and absorb everyone since it doesn't kill them, and he would get crazy powerful

Or turn people into candy and just throw them off

Buu is op af
 
Sony

Sony

Nintendo
Another missed opportunity in Super is the interaction between Frieza and Buu, as Frieza acknowledged Buu as one the strongest beings in the universe, not to be challenged. I don't know what they have planned for Tien in this tournament, but having Buu instead of Tien would have been more interesting for that matter.
 
S

Skeeter49

Member
Fulminator said:
He's also free to leave blobs around and absorb everyone since it doesn't kill them, and he would get crazy powerful

Or turn people into candy and just throw them off

Buu is op af
Click to expand...

I'd worry about the candy breaking and them dying.
Especially since he'd turn someone into a cookie.
 
C

Chaotic-Strike

Banned
Sony said:
Then why did he train to become fit Buu?



I said it before and I'll say it again, the huge power delta between Beerus and Goku that was the foundation of Super ruined the series.
Click to expand...

To show what would happen if Buu was actually taken seriously as a fighter.

We all saw how long that form lasted though, which only proves my point.
 
I

I-hate-u

Member
Did we ever get a why to them dropping Buu? Troll attempt? VA issues? Producers interference?

No way they wanted to involve Freeza all along, right? The tournament is more interesting due to his presence, but I do feel for the Buu fans out there. That's twice now.
 
F

Fulminator

Member
Skeeter49 said:
Buu can heal people. The one annoying thing with Buu is they would have dumbed down his abilities because he's actually OP in a tournament like this.



I don't think they are setting it up. I think they're going to. They can still have the manga differ. Caulifla probably won't even be in the manga.

It would justify and explain Trunks form, while making sense as a natural step beyond SSJ2, since the SSJ3 we've come to know can only be achieved by cheating death or cheating time. And just prove the SSJ3 we've known is trash once and for all.

They probably won't, but I still think there's a chance. If not, then either it's a hybrid form of having god ki since they're not fully saiyan, or it'll never be mentioned again.
Click to expand...

I just meant that since it wasn't in the manga, it's likely toriyama wasn't involved with it, and I don't think toei is going to start making lore changes with a form that wasn't made by the creator

I'm pretty sure Caulifla is a toriyama design, so she will most likely be in the manga
 
T

The Silver

Member
Sony said:
Then why did he train to become fit Buu?



I said it before and I'll say it again, the huge power delta between Beerus and Goku that was the foundation of Super ruined the series.
Click to expand...
They could still have had that fight happen, complete with universe busting punches, they just needed to take out the part where Goku kept the power.

Goku vs Beerus could have been taste of how strong Goku could possibly end up one day, a preview of what a DB fight looks like at the highest levels. Like in videogames where you start out strong as shit in the 1st level to give you a peek and then you get nerfed and spend the rest of game building up to that power again.
 
Sony

Sony

Nintendo
Fulminator said:
Ideally there would be a teammate who would pick up the snacks before buu eats or breaks them and throws them off

Would have been the perfect job for Tien
Click to expand...

Just think for a second what would happen if Buu would want to eat and you steal his food from him.
 
F

Fulminator

Member
I-hate-u said:
Did we ever get a why to them dropping Buu? Troll attempt? VA issues? Producers interference?

No way they wanted to involve Freeza all along, right? The tournament is more interesting due to his presence, but I do feel for the Buu fans out there. That's twice now.
Click to expand...
Toriyama loves Freeza


Sony said:
Just think for a second what would happen if Buu would want to eat and you steal his food from him.
Click to expand...

Bring Mr Satan instead then lol
 
R

Rutger

Banned
Chaotic-Strike said:
They've already shown that Buu won't really fight earnestly unless Mr. Satan gets hurt and rarely takes things seriously enough. It's hardly clumsily written when Buu has done it before during ROF and it's now pretty much an established part of his character now.

As for doing something major well of course not. He hasn't been the focus of the latest episodes. He's done just about as much as Gohan, Piccolo, Tien has done, and I don't see you calling them out.

Yet we're complaining about justification with Freeza when people like Master Roshi and Tien are on the team, for some reason.
Click to expand...

If U7 loses then Mr. Satan will be erased, sounds like an easy way to get Buu motivated.
And that excuse to keep Buu out of the U6 tournament was clumsy then, and it's clumsy now. It's not suddenly fine because it happened before. They hyped up Buu as a part of this arc for months and went with the laziest possible way to write him out right after showing that he is pretty motivated for the upcoming fight.

And you're missing my point when I say Frieza hasn't been justified in being part of this arc, sure he's a powerful fighter but there's more to it than that because there are so many ways the writers could have worked around that for another character. All we have seen from Frieza is that he is the same evil person he has always been. This isn't the same for Gohan, Piccolo, Roshi, and even Tien who have been neglected for years, they have their place in this arc, but Frieza has already had a big moment in Super so if he's not doing anything different then I can't help but wonder why he is even here. Frieza getting in by taking the place of someone who has never had a chance to do anything big in his new role as a good guy just make it worse.

Frieza is in a very tough spot because he has no reason to team up with the main characters, but if he ends up becoming the main villain yet again then it'll show the writers have no idea what else can be done with the character. What's the point in bringing him back if he doesn't add anything new to the story?
 
Sony

Sony

Nintendo
I think ultimately the choice for Freeza is because of a setup for a future arc. I don't think they ditched Buu because of VA or anything, but because they found out too late that having Frieza might be a more interesting idea.
 
K

Kagari

Crystal Bearer
Rutger said:
If U7 loses then Mr. Satan will be erased, sounds like an easy way to get Buu motivated.
And that excuse to keep Buu out of the U6 tournament was clumsy then, and it's clumsy now. It's not suddenly fine because it happened before. They hyped up Buu as a part of this arc for months and went with the laziest possible way to write him out right after showing that he is pretty motivated for the upcoming fight.

And you're missing my point when I say Frieza hasn't been justified in being part of this arc, sure he's a powerful fighter but there's more to it than that because there are so many ways the writers could have worked around that for another character. All we have seen from Frieza is that he is the same evil person he has always been. This isn't the same for Gohan, Piccolo, Roshi, and even Tien who have been neglected for years, they have their place in this arc, but Frieza has already had a big moment in Super so if he's not doing anything different then I can't help but wonder why he is even here. Frieza getting in by taking the place of someone who has never had a chance to do anything big in his new role as a good guy just make it worse.

Frieza is in a very tough spot because he has no reason to team up with the main characters, but if he ends up becoming the main villain yet again then it'll show the writers have no idea what else can be done with the character. What's the point in bringing him back if he doesn't add anything new to the story?
Click to expand...

Toriyama has a very specific... problem... where he seems to run out of ideas for characters and often retreads development or plot points as a result. See: Vegeta, Gohan, Buu, etc. I do have to wonder how much the current editorial team has an influence over him with regards to shuffling in things for marketing/popularity purposes though...
 
R

Rutger

Banned
Kagari said:
Toriyama has a very specific... problem... where he seems to run out of ideas for characters and often retreads development or plot points as a result. See: Vegeta, Gohan, Buu, etc. I do have to wonder how much the current editorial team has an influence over him though with regards to shuffling in things for marketing/popularity purposes though...
Click to expand...

That is certainly true.
 
C

Chaotic-Strike

Banned
Rutger said:
If U7 loses then Mr. Satan will be erased, sounds like an easy way to get Buu motivated.
And that excuse to keep Buu out of the U6 tournament was clumsy then, and it's clumsy now. It's not suddenly fine because it happened before. They hyped up Buu as a part of this arc for months and went with the laziest possible way to write him out right after showing that he is pretty motivated for the upcoming fight.

And you're missing my point when I say Frieza hasn't been justified in being part of this arc, sure he's a powerful fighter but there's more to it than that because there are so many ways the writers could have worked around that for another character. All we have seen from Frieza is that he is the same evil person he has always been. This isn't the same for Gohan, Piccolo, Roshi, and even Tien who have been neglected for years, they have their place in this arc, but Frieza has already had a big moment in Super so if he's not doing anything different then I can't help but wonder why he is even here. Frieza getting in by taking the place of someone who has never had a chance to do anything big in his new role as a good guy just make it worse.

Frieza is in a very tough spot because he has no reason to team up with the main characters, but if he ends up becoming the main villain yet again then it'll show the writers have no idea what else can be done with the character. What's the point in bringing him back if he doesn't add anything new to the story?
Click to expand...

You said in your original post that Freeza had no justification for being there. When there clearly has been justification in the story with them losing Buu and potentially being disqualified with 9 members. Now you've changed your argument that another character could have worked instead, which shows it isn't solely how Freeza was included that bothers you. Only that him being included at all is your biggest problem.

Just because characters like Tien and Master Roshi have been neglected doesn't suddenly mean they have anything of value to add to the tournament and should "have their place." What exactly have they done differently since the start of Super that has justified them for being included? It's funny how your so accepting of them despite them adding nothing to this tournament so far and call out Freeza for doing nothing when he hasn't even set his plan into motion yet.

At the very least, Freeza has laid out some future plot threads that can lead to more things in the future arcs, which are more than you can say about anything Tien, Master Roshi has done.

Lastly, Freeza does have a bunch of reasons to team up with his universe for one being brought back to life and having a universe to go back to when he does. His character interactions alone have justified him being back over Fat Buu, who only has his abilities to hold him up as a character.
 
Kssio_Aug

Kssio_Aug

Member
Just finished episode 27 (Ressurrection of Freeza). For me this arc was more or less on the same level of Beerus arc.

The high points for RoF, in my opinion, were: nice battles, Gohan asking to train again with Piccolo, Universe 7 and 6 introduction, and SSB. While for the 1st arc, it was the introduction of Beerus and Whis and the return of the characters.

Desliked the fact that Freeza comes back just to get wrecked once again although he in fact was pretty damnn strong for 4 months training, and that the battle drags on a bit with this constant "I'll show my 100%; well, now I'm 100%; well, now I'm 100% I guess I played you". On the 1st arc I desliked the whole Super Sayajin God stuff, and that Goku almost destroys the entire universe in a fist fight against Beerus (and in RoF he is even stronger than before but his fight against Freeza using all his power does nothing... it was curious how they straight up ignored that, but I have to say that I prefer that way).

Now to the next arc! Which I believe is where Dragon Ball Super really begins!

Besides the little issues, I think the show is pretty nice. I'd say I'm considering it on par with what I remember from Buu's saga, that said I think it's doing great although not as good as the golden DBZ Freeza and Cell sagas.

Edit: Am trying not to read too much the thread discussions about the new episodes to avoid some spoilers. But sometimes I can't resist.
 
Z

Zalman

Member
I think Resurrection F specifically suffered from being written as a movie first and foremost. They didn't have time for any complex and interesting plotlines. Frieza returns and disappears far too quickly. He didn't feel like the threat he should be. I was hoping the Super adaptions of the movies would remedy this, but they instead felt overly long for no reason.

The current arc is a better way to bring back Frieza in an interesting way. On the other hand this wouldn't really have worked without the massive buff he got in the movie, so in that sense the it doesn't feel like a big waste of time like it did before.
 
Kssio_Aug

Kssio_Aug

Member
Were Universes introduced in DBZ, or it was basically created in Super?

I mean, I'm reading a little about it now, and it seems Future Trunks is from another universe, but I don't remember this being mentioned in DBZ.

But I really like this idea... it can do some good for the series just as DC and Marvel uses similar concept to fix or recreate some events.
 
F

Fulminator

Member
Kssio_Aug said:
Were Universes introduced in DBZ, or it was basically created in Super?

I mean, I'm reading a little about it now, and it seems Future Trunks is from another universe, but I don't remember this being mentioned in DBZ.

But I really like this idea... it can do some good for the series just as DC and Marvel uses similar concept to fix or recreate some events.
Click to expand...
Future Trunks is from a parallel timeline of the same universe (which creates a parallel universe for every other universes too lol), but the specific concept of a multiverse outside of parallel timelines was introduced in super I believe

E: well technically it was introduced in the battle of gods movie
 
E

Eylos

Banned
Kssio_Aug said:
Just finished episode 27 (Ressurrection of Freeza). For me this arc was more or less on the same level of Beerus arc.

The high points for RoF, in my opinion, were: nice battles, Gohan asking to train again with Piccolo, Universe 7 and 6 introduction, and SSB. While for the 1st arc, it was the introduction of Beerus and Whis and the return of the characters.

Desliked the fact that Freeza comes back just to get wrecked once again although he in fact was pretty damnn strong for 4 months training, and that the battle drags on a bit with this constant "I'll show my 100%; well, now I'm 100%; well, now I'm 100% I guess I played you". On the 1st arc I desliked the whole Super Sayajin God stuff, and that Goku almost destroys the entire universe in a fist fight against Beerus (and in RoF he is even stronger than before but his fight against Freeza using all his power does nothing... it was curious how they straight up ignored that, but I have to say that I prefer that way).

Now to the next arc! Which I believe is where Dragon Ball Super really begins!

Besides the little issues, I think the show is pretty nice. I'd say I'm considering it on par with what I remember from Buu's saga, that said I think it's doing great although not as good as the golden DBZ Freeza and Cell sagas.

Edit: Am trying not to read too much the thread discussions about the new episodes to avoid some spoilers. But sometimes I can't resist.
Click to expand...
This Arc IS better than Freeza, and welcome aboard, and Join the good side of the force "we <3 universe 6", and not the uncool, malign dark side of "we <3 Android 17"
 
R

Rutger

Banned
Chaotic-Strike said:
You said in your original post that Freeza had no justification for being there. When there clearly has been justification in the story with them losing Buu and potentially being disqualified with 9 members. Now you've changed your argument that another character could have worked instead, which shows it isn't solely how Freeza was included that bothers you. Only that him being included at all is your biggest problem.

Just because characters like Tien and Master Roshi have been neglected doesn't suddenly mean they have anything of value to add to the tournament and should "have their place." What exactly have they done differently since the start of Super that has justified them for being included? It's funny how your so accepting of them despite them adding nothing to this tournament so far and call out Freeza for doing nothing when he hasn't even set his plan into motion yet.

At the very least, Freeza has laid out some future plot threads that can lead to more things in the future arcs, which are more than you can say about anything Tien, Master Roshi has done.

Lastly, Freeza does have a bunch of reasons to team up with his universe for one being brought back to life and having a universe to go back to when he does. His character interactions alone have justified him being back over Fat Buu, who only has his abilities to hold him up as a character.
Click to expand...

You're still missing my point. The justification I'm talking about isn't the poorly thrown together excuse that almost kind of makes the return of Frieza sound reasonable, it's about the fact that there's no good reason for me to care about him being included. Frieza has been done three times before now and he's been the exact same every time, he's bringing nothing new to the table and the show hasn't given us any reason to think otherwise.

Side character that have been neglected are justified in being here because of that, because this is a new Dragon Ball story and unlike Frieza they haven't had a major role to play in a long time. Having these characters play catchup with the powergap that has grown over the years can give us fresh new stories that I have no confidence will happen with Frieza at this moment.
 
Kssio_Aug

Kssio_Aug

Member
Fulminator said:
Future Trunks is from a parallel timeline of the same universe (which creates a parallel universe for every other universes too lol), but the specific concept of a multiverse outside of parallel timelines was introduced in super I believe

E: well technically it was introduced in the battle of gods movie
Click to expand...

Thanks for clarifying it! =)

Eylos said:
This Arc IS better than Freeza, and welcome aboard, and Join the good side of the force "we <3 universe 6", and not the uncool, malign dark side of "we <3 Android 17"
Click to expand...

Can't wait to be introduced to the U6 characters!
 
T

The Silver

Member
Does Cell have some Gohan in him? Gohan doesn't have his own moves and Cell never mentioned him so its hard to tell.

I don't think he mentioned Tien either, actually were any of Tien's moves that Cell used in the anime also in the manga? Solar Flare he could have got from Goku, but I can't remember if the clones were filler.
 
K

Kagari

Crystal Bearer
The Silver said:
Does Cell have some Gohan in him? Gohan doesn't have his own moves and Cell never mentioned him so its hard to tell.

I don't think he mentioned Tien either, actually were any of Tien's moves that Cell used in the anime also in the manga? Solar Flare he could have got from Goku, but I can't remember if the clones were filler.
Click to expand...

No, it's a dub only thing.
 
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