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Dragon's Crown Reviews

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What makes the female features more glorified than the male features in this game?

For me I have to look no further than the Sorceress' walking animation with her giant tits proudly on display, or the Amazonian character with laughably stupid looking hips. Some of you guys feel very strongly about it and don't agree with me, and that's cool. But I do understand, quite clearly even, where the negativity and debate is coming from.
 

ultron87

Member
I completely understand this POV, I don't think anybody is going against that.

But the funny thing is that people are forgetting you don't have to play as the Sorceress or the Amazon...

Im sure they won't even appear on screen unless you play as them...

Besides multiplayer

It isn't just those two characters though. The Polygon review talks about a problematic depiction of females in all NPCs across the game. and says that the Sorceress and Amazon are less troubling since they are empowered characters with agency.

If this little montage in their video review is a representative sample I agree that it is an issue: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nu-1FDrxRmU&T&t=2m29s
 

Vibri

Banned
12340-3.jpg


WTF SUDDENLY I FEEL SO WEAK YOU GUYZ :(
 
This is the attitude I get from some people.

Acceptable male body types
Slim
Fat
Muscular
Hypertrophied beyond belief
Showing lots of skin
Sexy
Ridiculously attractive
Mildly attractive
Ugly
Grotesquely hideous


Going into any extreme in either way is just UNACCEPTABLE for female characters apparently. Otherwise you're somehow objectifying them.

Wait WHAT?
 

Superflat

Member
It's disturbing that these people think the way to improve womens depiction in games is to only depict them as completely perfectly average

It is weird that this what is expected of female videogame characters now, apparently across every type of game and universe.
 

SaitoH

Member
I can't believe there's been so much discussion about a Vanillaware game. It's like I'm in Bizarro world.

This is one game that's not going to be lost in the shuffle --which is good news for Vanillaware.
 
The reason why reviews shouldn't be merely opinion pieces is because it's possible for a person to evaluate a product from a variety of angles and perspectives. We're not so stubborn in that we can only look at an object one way (or at least, not everyone is). Reviews shouldn't read out of an Op/Ed piece. They should be the real meat of a video game publication. Having multiple reviewers evaluate a game at the same time, while sharing, alleviates some of the stress of being objective and adds to the overall objectivity of a review (something that rarely happens nowadays, but used to happen all the time in game magazines).

A reviewer should have the ability to objectively see value in something that may not inherently click with them. I think that's the central requirement of a reviewer. If they can't do this, they're in the wrong profession. They'll still be influenced by their own experiences and preferences. I hate Skyrim, but I can still write a review about all of the positive things that it accomplishes... and while I fully recognize that the game isn't for me, I also recognize that the majority of my "readership" values things in this game differently.

That's a methodology that's flawed at conception. One's job as a reviewer is not to be magnanimous, that is, the job isn't to craft a review which appeals to the highest number of people. Doing so would be dishonest - you'd only be grasping at what you guess others might enjoy, rather than speaking with conviction. It's also a disservice to oneself - it implies that one's opinions are inherently invalid if they're not shared by the majority. Clearly that's not true.

The job is to provide an honest (and, hopefully, interesting) account of one's reaction to the game. Your review of Skyrim, as a person who hates it, could potentially be both interesting and useful, even to people who enjoy it like me. If you're honest about your impression, and your opinions are well considered, then what's the harm? You shouldn't be concerned about fragile egos that can't accept your differing take.
 

QisTopTier

XisBannedTier
It is weird that this what is expected of female videogame characters now, apparently across every type of game and universe.
and that's bullshit, no sane person wants this. If anything I want more female video game characters with more variety of characteristics/body types and so on.

People are not clones, video game characters depicting people sure as fuck shouldn't be either.
 
Also I am confused when people say things like the game is a teenager's fantasy or just insults in general that mention teenagers.

Do men become homosexual/lose their sexual attraction when they go past the adolescent phase?

Because if so, there might be something wrong with me.
 
I really hope Vibri isn't equating the way men and women are depicted in games and media. Because that would be very silly indeed.
 

LordJim

Member
I can't believe there's been so much discussion about a Vanillaware game. It's like I'm in Bizarro world.

This is one game that's not going to be lost in the shuffle --which is good news for Vanillaware.

Great sales week (overshadowed only by Ace Attorney 5 going apeshit) will certainly help as well.

Rejoice!
uJJ7gqU.gif
 
It isn't just those two characters though. The Polygon review talks about a problematic depiction of females in all NPCs across the game. and says that the Sorceress and Amazon are less troubling since they are empowered characters with agency.

It's stupid because it's looking at it through a vacuum. Would you watch a movie set in Ancient Rome and criticize it for having women acting as servants, and not given proper education or an opportunity to work? What if you watch a movie set in a fictional reality that is obviously taking inspiration from that time setting? Why is it that every video game has to be set in a world where our current ideal set of freedom and rights are held true in the game?
 

Atilac

Member
I love Atlus games but I have a hard time getting over the ridiculous character models this game has. It's almost to the point where I don't want to play the game because they're so exaggerated.
Thankfully you didn't feel this way about the witcher 2 with Triss Merigold
 
Facts? I'm using my eyes.

Two large breasts jiggling all over the place with each step is creativity and not fan service?...

*hands up*

Ok I'm done.

Hey it's almost like people don't have the same taste...
imagine that?

Just because you don't like it doesn't automatically make it bad bro.
 

Vire

Member
I think some of the posters in this thread should read this...

From Atlus's own PR team:

w2kzvT1.jpg

Hey it's almost like people don't have the same taste...
imagine that?

Just because you don't like it doesn't automatically make it bad bro.

I never said it was bad or good in terms of game quality, I said I don't have a problem with Polygon's review.
 

Riposte

Member
It is unfortunate how these threads are rarely about mechanics, or even overall atmosphere. I did ask some questions about how the game plays in the OT, but they've gone unanswered. So, I give up.

Absolutely this.

Dragon's Crown vs Dead or Alive. Which one is more guilty of objectification?

Every videogame is guilty of objectification and, in the broader sense, equally guilty. Everything in a game (including within its plot, etc.) is an object for the player to interact with and every "idea" represented has been objectified to that interactive environment. A "human" character has no human rights, they are disposable and nothing else besides what they've been coded to be. It just so happens having such objects be sexual titillating in purpose is considered more offensive because of the implications it creates if someone were to take it and adapt it to a real life context. (As expected, having "human" objects who's purpose is to "die" or exist to solely to serve an occupation (like selling items) is not really considered. Though, I'm not saying they should be.)


Vire you didn't answer my question. You know, you have a history of being a poor communicator. I recall you having trouble with me in the past.
 

ultron87

Member
It's stupid because it's looking at it through a vacuum. Would you watch a movie set in Ancient Rome and criticize it for having women acting as servants, and not given proper education or an opportunity to work? What if you watch a movie set in a fictional reality that is obviously taking inspiration from that time setting? Why is it that every video game has to be set in a world where our current ideal set of freedom and rights are held true in the game?

A fantasy game with dragons and magic has no reason to be beholden to historical gender roles. Especially when it features female main characters specifically acting against those roles.
 
I don't consider a 6/10 to be "low". The fact that I (and many other people) don't see it as "low" already disqualifies it from being described as "objectively low". The only objective parts of a review are a description of the product's contents, and the reviewer's personal experience.

Unfortunately, the wider gaming media has declared a 7 as "average", and hence a 6.5 will be seen as "below average" and hence "low" by gamers. This is something that isn't going to change in a hurry.
 

Shosai

Banned
Also I am confused when people say things like the game is a teenager's fantasy or just insults in general that mention teenagers.

Do men become homosexual/lose their sexual attraction when they go past the adolescent phase?

Because if so, there might be something wrong with me.

You're aware that male libidos quickly peak at the age of 18, right?

Hey it's almost like people don't have the same taste...
imagine that?

Just because you don't like it doesn't automatically make it bad bro.

That's not a qualitative statement, he's saying that the animation is fan-service. It's meant to be titillating and sexy. I don't see how you can deny the intention there.
 
Because men on the whole tend to get stimulated visually more than women? Because a muscular man depicts the male fantasy for being powerful and strong, and a big breasted, curvy, skimpily-dressed woman represents the male fantasy of what he wants in a woman.

It's why teenage boys tend to have posters of girls on their walls in bikinis, fulfilling the physical desire. Girls tend to have posters of teenage singers or 'heart-throbs', people who fulfill a more emotional fantasy.

i thought women wanted to have big breasts and great asses.
 
I think some of the posters in this thread should read this...

From Atlus's own PR team:

w2kzvT1.jpg

I'm sure that was written because some comments were being made that were very rude. That isn't a response saying the review is correct and we shouldn't disagree with it, as we are doing here.
 

zethren

Banned
Why does it matter? You're asking the wrong question.

Because the energy being poured into the criticism of DC's art could be better and more accurately spent else where. Like with other games that actively objectify women. I just chose DoA as a popular example. For instance, every female character in DC has a different body type. In DoA, every female character practically has the same character model with differing faces and hair. All the same body type.

It matters because DC does not exist in a vacuum. It exists among other games that are far more offensive.
 

ironcreed

Banned
As others have pointed out many times, it boggles the mind how some are just fine and dandy with shooting countless people in games and chopping their heads off with blood spraying all over the place, but a pair of over-sized breasts and some skimpy outfits depicted in a cartoonish, classic fantasy themed game is just too much and must be protested. Absolutely hilarious.
 

Vire

Member
It is unfortunate how these threads are rarely about mechanics, or even overall atmosphere. I did ask some questions about how the game plays in the OT, but they've gone unanswered. So, I give up.

Vire you didn't answer my question. You know, you have a history of being a poor communicator. I recall you having trouble with me in the past.

I apologize, there was a lot of posts addressing me and it's difficult to respond to every person.

What did you want me to respond to? I'd be glad to.
 

Abriael

Banned
I think some of the posters in this thread should read this...

From Atlus's own PR team:

w2kzvT1.jpg

Keyword "PR Team".

It's PR.

And it's funny how Gies is spamming it all over the place, besides personally attacking those that criticize the review. He knows very well that the review stands on weak legs and he's in damage control mode.
 

RedSwirl

Junior Member
I'm also still mystified that these character designs only started to get attention within the last few months when they were first revealed in 2011. I mean, Vanillaware fans and niche Japanese game fans took notice back then, but the gaming press at large didn't until basically two years afterwards. Is this what Vanillaware has to do to get sales?
 
As others have pointed out many times, it boggles the mind how some are just fine and dandy with shooting countless people in games and chopping their heads off with blood spraying all over the place, but a pair of over-sized breasts and some skimpy outfits depicted in a cartoonish, classic fantasy themed game is just too much and must be protested. Absolutely hilarious.

Likely due to perceived objectification of a female for no other reason than the ability to do so.
 
What the fuck, you literally didn't even check the review to see who wrote it. I am going to assume you didn't even check it out at all.

I don't even care about Polygon, but jesus.

I assumed it was Gies, he's the only one who harps on about this stuff. Well, to this extent at least.

So they have another writer now. Birds of a feather I guess.
 

njean777

Member
As others have pointed out many times, it boggles the mind how some are just fine and dandy with shooting countless people in games and chopping their heads off with blood spraying all over the place, but a pair of over-sized breasts and some skimpy outfits depicted in a cartoonish, classic fantasy themed game is just too much and must be protested. Absolutely hilarious.

It is a classic american problem, it so hypocritical that is makes me laugh every time. Violence is perfectly fine, but a tit and ass is not ok at all. Welcome to America.
 
i thought women wanted to have big breasts and great asses.

My wife has big breasts. She wishes they were smaller. Very few women would want the sorceresses breasts, unless they want to have a backache for the rest of their life.

If anything the female stereotype of desired beauty is the thinner, less voluptuous style you'd see in a runway model.
 

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
That's a methodology that's flawed at conception. One's job as a reviewer is not to be magnanimous, that is, the job isn't to craft a review which appeals to the highest number of people. Doing so would be dishonest - you'd only be grasping at what you guess others might enjoy, rather than speaking with conviction. It's also a disservice to oneself - it implies that one's opinions are inherently invalid if they're not shared by the majority. Clearly that's not true.

The job is to provide an honest (and, hopefully, interesting) account of one's reaction to the game. Your review of Skyrim, as a person who hates it, could potentially be both interesting and useful, even to people who enjoy it like me. If you're honest about your impression, and your opinions are well considered, then what's the harm? You shouldn't be concerned about fragile egos that can't accept your differing take.

I understand where you're coming from, and I appreciate your perspective on it. I still disagree.

I didn't say that the reviewer's opinion is invalid if they don't hold part of the majority share opinion, but rather the scope of the review should not consist entirely of their opinion. I also didn't say that the review should appeal to the highest number of people. A review's job isn't to appeal to anyone, really. It's to provide information and a judgment. Reviews aren't entertainment to me, and people writing them that way are potentially doing a disservice to the product.

I don't think it's dishonest to write your review for a variety of perspectives. I don't think a review is your own personal journey through a game. Ultimately, you're assigning a score to this product. This score is a numerical representation of value. Maybe part of the issue I have is simply how Metacritic has changed what review scores MEAN to the industry, and the weight that they carry.
 

Jomjom

Banned
300px-Kratos12.jpg



OMG I'M SO THREATENED BY HIS HUNKISH SEXUALITY QUICK HALVE ALL THE REVIEW SCOREZ

I've seen way more enormous sized boobs in real life than I have seen guys who look like this. Maybe it's because I live in the OC, but who knows.

Don't understand why there is such a huge uproar about the unrealistic, sexualized depiction of women, but almost nothing about the same type of depiction of men in most games. I'm sorry, but I would wager less than 5% of the men playing these games even remotely resemble male protagonists in video games. Nearly every male character has a 26-pack while I can only count one big pack on myself. Whereas there are quite a few female gamers who actually do resemble how females are often portrayed in games. If I had to choose, I would say female depictions in games is actually far more realistic than the male ones.

It is a classic american problem, it so hypocritical that is makes me laugh every time. Violence is perfectly fine, but a tit and ass is not ok at all. Welcome to America.

Blame it on our puritan roots.
 

Homu

Banned
It just seems to me like no one has played a vanillaware game before and are suddenly jumping on this one.

More like people are somehow surprised that not every country on earth wants to abide by their ridiculous standards and preferences when it comes to art.
 

Vire

Member
I'm sure that was written because some comments were being made that were very rude. That isn't a response saying the review is correct and we shouldn't disagree with it, as we are doing here.

It's saying that it's a fair assessment, which is what some people in here are taking issue with, claiming it isn't and that Dragon Crown is objectively good.
 
A fantasy game with dragons and magic has no reason to be beholden to historical gender roles. Especially when it features female main characters specifically acting against those roles.

The fictional reality story isn't beholden to it either, but I assume you would be okay with it. What if I made a movie set in a world where women were not treated fairly. Maybe it's a part of the plot. Maybe it's just the backdrop of the actual plot of the movie. That is the universe I am depicting. It's the setting I chose my movie to be set in. People would find that acceptable for the most part. They would watch that movie and say "Okay, In IHaveCandyLand women don't have the same freedom men do. That's just how that world is. So be it." and go on with watching the rest of the movie. If I turn that movie into a game though, oh no, this is terrible. Why aren't they treated as equals? Clearly this is sexism at play.

That is what is absurd. And the fact that a total of 3 women are shown to be able to fight doesn't somehow mean you can't make a world where women rights resemble an earlier time of our history.
 
Most of the posters in here are missing the point entirely. The male equivalent is not a fit guy with muscles, it would be if he had a huge wiggly dick jiggling all over the place in his thong as he walked.

Love to see the Twittersphere's "no big deal, get over it" reaction to that one.
 

QisTopTier

XisBannedTier
What's bullshit is the strawman you people are ganging up on.
I'm sorry, there have been too many post pretty much leading up to situations like that when this subject get's drawn out which it has been about 6 times now from this game. It's a never ending cycle.
Most of the posters in here are missing the point entirely. The male equivalent is not a fit guy with muscles, it would be if he had a huge wiggly dick jiggling all over the place in his thong as he walked.
Oh look this again :lol
 

Riposte

Member
I apologize, there was a lot of posts addressing me and it's difficult to respond to every person.

What did you want me to respond to? I'd be glad to.

You accused of Kamitani/Vanillaware of "pandering to the lowest common denominator". This implies that this product (at least first and foremost) is being designed to fit an audience and not being designed through the creativity of an artist. What proof do you have of this?

It would be like saying that it isn't possible for Naughty Dog to want to create a "zombie" post-apocalypse TPS because that combination is made up of some of the most popular themes and genres. Thus they must be after the LCD.
 
I think some of the posters in this thread should read this...

I would go on about fandom and saying "it's bad" for reasons people disagree with, but the recipe for a shitstorm is far simpler: piss off the fandom > shitstorm. (possible trigger warning and possible NFSW warning, depending on how tolerant you are of threats to "shove bleach into [GQ's] eyes and pull them out with a spork")
 

phanboy4

Member
That's an assumption on your part. I'd rather take the creator's word. If you want to be cynical, then there isn't much more to say.

If there's a meaningful reason to draw cartoonishly massive boobs on something that isn't 'BECAUSE I'M A GUY AND I THINK THIS IS SEXY' or for comedic purposes, nobody's come up with it yet.
 

Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
ironcreed said:
As others have pointed out many times, it boggles the mind how some are just fine and dandy with shooting countless people in games and chopping their heads off with blood spraying all over the place, but a pair of over-sized breasts and some skimpy outfits depicted in a cartoonish, classic fantasy themed game is just too much and must be protested. Absolutely hilarious.

Exactly. Its not that people find fault with stuff like this, its just that its such an oddly selective thing to get offended by.

I'm sorry to say it smacks to me of hypocrisy. If you genuinely care about social justice how can you turn a blind eye to all the other anti-social aspects endemic to gaming fictions?
 
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