So no game that has a framerate lower than 60fps has great gameplay?
When some of your previous posts are spewing 'evolution of mankind' kind of bullshit, of course people are going to call you out for trolling.
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DriveClub (Evolution Studios/PS4) announcement trailer. [PS3 WHEELS ARE SUPPORTED]
- Thread starter SolidSnakex
- Start date
When some of your previous posts are spewing 'evolution of mankind' kind of bullshit, of course people are going to call you out for trolling.
Glorified G
Member
It's more considered stupid. It's as stupid as complaining about lack of mods on a console game. Build a gaming rig and have every game 60fps.
PGR4 (bet you didn't see that coming). Best use of motion blur I've seen on a console. Horizon could've learned a lot from it, instead they did the bare minimum and halved the framerate used in FM4, added some extra AA or whatever but motion blur was lacking. The sense of speed is far better in PGR4.
30fps is great when you can see the engine's been tweaked to exploit the platform it's on. The problem with majority of 30fps console driving games is that they're little more than PC ports that have had things like environment details and graphics settings adjusted so they run smoothly on console, but that's all they seem to do. Chuck some nice MB in there and you're golden, but devs rarely do (unless it's console-exclusive). Which is why I'm hype for DC, because I know they'll push the platform as much as they can and make the design decisions to enable them to do that, whether it be 30fps with nice (not overdone!) blur or 60fps.
SolidSnakex
Member
The main benefit of 60fps is the smaller window of input lag. So, with that in mind the best example of 30fps done well is NFS: Hot Pursuit. It "only" ran at 30fps, but Criterion managed to lower the input lag to 83ms. It's the only 30fps game that DF has ever found that has input lag below 100ms. On average 60fps tend to have 66ms of input lag.
Hm, interesting! Did any other Criterion (or other dev's) games come close? I wonder if a new console generation could shift that average? Depends on what contributed to that lag, I guess... other than framerate, obv.
blastprocessor
The Amiga Brotherhood
I fired up Motorstorm at the weekend (still looks great today) and the game uses subtle motion blur and runs at 30fps. At present, Drive Club does not have this. If it does in the final build l think Drive Club will be fine at 30 fps.
60fps would be nice though, it's not like the graphics they've shown so far justify 30fps.
60fps would be nice though, it's not like the graphics they've shown so far justify 30fps.
VVV Mars VG
Member
60fps adds a lot bot visually and in terms of control, I hope Evolution manage to get that frame rate up and I look forward to getting my first hands-on at Gamescom.
New consoles have always needed a killer app at launch, it will be interesting to see the finished Drive Club product.
New consoles have always needed a killer app at launch, it will be interesting to see the finished Drive Club product.
Kyo
Member
I couldn't agree more. Most people really have no clue what the term "arcade racer" used to mean, it's been so distorted over the years. Most of the current racing games to whom it is applied have nothing arcade-like about them other than simplified vehicle handling and quite often they are very far away from the mix of instant accessibility and challenge that the best arcade racers used to offer. All those bloated modern 30 fps racing games with dozens of faceless track variations and their unavoidable grinding are so different in feel even when their basic vehicle handling might be similar.
TheLegendOfMart
Banned
I stopped reading this thread because of the page after page after page of whining about 30 and 60fps.
Whining like a little girl isn't going to suddenly make them do 60fps. If you don't like it don't buy it.
Whining like a little girl isn't going to suddenly make them do 60fps. If you don't like it don't buy it.
That's not trolling. I'm not talking about "evolution of mankind" but about evolution (aka progress) in general. It makes sense: Just because something was good before, it doesn't mean it's good in the future as well. The most common argument though by 30FPS backers is "we always played at 30FPS" which is a) not true und b) a non-argument, because that doesn't make 30FPS good to begin with. I played and enjoyed a ton of 30FPS games. But today, I can't anymore. But tbh, framerate was always a very important topic for me. It's just that my personal acceptance for shit framerates is now lower than ever. That's partly because of PC gaming because when you have a constant comparison, you just can't go back anymore. F.e. try switchtig framerate "on the fly" in a PC game, f.e. in Dark Souls from 60 to 30. It's like the game is running in slow-mo and barely reacts to your input commands.
That's not possible because I miss out on tons of great console exclusives. TLOU for example was such an awesome game - still I didn't have fun with it because of the framerate. It felt like I played TLOU v.0.3 (still beta) instead of TLOU like it should be experienced. So if you can't feel that...imagine you watch a movie and every 10 seconds the movie skips 2 seconds back. You can still watch the movie, the content is probably still great if it's a good one...BUT...would you enjoy it? Of course you will say "yes" now, just to proof a point, but well, I am not able to.
60FPS are better, you see. Why stick with 30FPS then?
but realistically speaking, EVERYONE.gif who is getting a ps4, is also getting this game one way or another.
so its in the best interest of all that this game becomes the best it can.
and its not like we have something new about this game to see or talk about, yet we keep focusing on the 30/60hz debate...
we should have new things and new footage of driveclub though very very soon...
Again, I can't believe I have to reiterate this: 60fps games has nothing to with new hardware and evolution. There were 60fps games on the PS1, PS2, PS3 and there will be on PS4. It's down to the developers, and if they think they can push visual fidelity much further at 30fps than they can at 60, there will always be 30fps games.
Just because 'you can't stand it' doesn't mean you speak for every other gamer out there, cut that shit out. There have even been people on this thread saying they would be fine with 30fps - not because of that stupid straw man argument 'we always played games at 30fps' you claimed - but because they recognise that visuals can be pushed further at that framerate. I'm sorry you can't stand playing games at 30fps any more, but the vast majority of us can.
Despite I am indefinitely anchored at 60fps clan, I have to point out one very important thing.
During the last few years developers managed to separate two things that were previously tied together in the majority of the engines: physics engine and graphics rendering.
That allowed for a good amount of 30fps racers that were very smooth on consoles and very responsive in handling (to my honest surprise) - from unoptimised releases such as Ferrari Racing Legends, to Codemasters F1 titles, and all the way to Forza Horizon that even had (as reported unofficially) 360Hz rendering for the physics engine (same as *main* title).
We can only presume that Driveclub will do the same if decide to go with 30fps, where the graphics will remain very smooth because physics calculations will be offloaded from the renderer (and will probably be much smoother then the first TDU or PGR 3&4 which unfortunately had physics and graphics running in the same pipeline, this being non-responsive as they could have been).
Of course, 60fps forever in my yard, but after I experienced Horizon with the wheel (CSRE in 900-mode), I have drasticaly changed my opinion regards this issue for non-hard-core simulation racers.
During the last few years developers managed to separate two things that were previously tied together in the majority of the engines: physics engine and graphics rendering.
That allowed for a good amount of 30fps racers that were very smooth on consoles and very responsive in handling (to my honest surprise) - from unoptimised releases such as Ferrari Racing Legends, to Codemasters F1 titles, and all the way to Forza Horizon that even had (as reported unofficially) 360Hz rendering for the physics engine (same as *main* title).
We can only presume that Driveclub will do the same if decide to go with 30fps, where the graphics will remain very smooth because physics calculations will be offloaded from the renderer (and will probably be much smoother then the first TDU or PGR 3&4 which unfortunately had physics and graphics running in the same pipeline, this being non-responsive as they could have been).
Of course, 60fps forever in my yard, but after I experienced Horizon with the wheel (CSRE in 900-mode), I have drasticaly changed my opinion regards this issue for non-hard-core simulation racers.
Didn't realise you guys post on GAF. Loved your video's at E3. Some of the best there were. Hope you get more DriveClub, Forza 5 and GT6 footage!
Because everything's a tradeoff? Sometimes I like a bit more graphic fidelity. I like to see all the extra crazy shit that devs can throw on the screen when they go for 30fps. If it's on consoles and I have a controller in my hand then a smooth 30fps doesnt bother me at all. Now if it was PC, that's a different story...unless there's a controller involved.
Also, this isnt even a simulation game.
SolidSnakex
Member
I don't think so. DF never did an analysis of Most Wanted, but it had a lot of framerate issues on consoles, which would impact the input lag. HP was locked at 30fps.
PlayStation Europe ‏@PlayStationEU 59s
We've got some special #DRIVECLUB videos this week too, something a bit different! If you're at #PlayStationGC keep an eye out
PlayStation Europe ‏@PlayStationEU 3m
Yet more exclusive photos! Check out this Mercedes getting readied for a special #DRIVECLUB video: #PlayStationGC
PlayStation Europe ‏@PlayStationEU 3m
And here's another exclusive photo of the #DRIVECLUB video behind the scenes! Lots more to come #PlayStationGC
We've got some special #DRIVECLUB videos this week too, something a bit different! If you're at #PlayStationGC keep an eye out
PlayStation Europe ‏@PlayStationEU 3m
Yet more exclusive photos! Check out this Mercedes getting readied for a special #DRIVECLUB video: #PlayStationGC
PlayStation Europe ‏@PlayStationEU 3m
And here's another exclusive photo of the #DRIVECLUB video behind the scenes! Lots more to come #PlayStationGC
TheLegendOfMart
Banned
It's a launch game, developers have switched to completely different architecture. It's not as easy as just flipping a switch and boom 60FPS. Even Turn10 have had to sacrifice on things to get Forza running 60FPS.
I don't think Sony cares about die hard racers who want 60FPS, they want a pretty looking game that will appeal to the masses.
SolidSnakex
Member
PlayStation Europe ‏@PlayStationEU 59s
We've got some special #DRIVECLUB videos this week too, something a bit different! If you're at #PlayStationGC keep an eye out
Multiple videos? Hopefully this is confirmation that they've recorded their own direct feed videos. We still don't even know what the sound is like.
never said myself it about flipping a switch.
and how sony does with polyphony the last years, is a proof on its own that sony does care about racers. but I dont think that sony will dictate the framerate in any case here. the matter is in the hands of the developing team and nobody else's in my opinion.
TheLegendOfMart
Banned
Exactly, they have Gran Turismo for the die hards.
No offence to the developers apart from Infamous Drive Club is one of the games I really want to play, but they will want DC to appeal to the lowest common denominator hence why they are giving a limited version away with PS+.
They will want a game that is going to showcase graphics for next gen, Forza doesn't have different weather types or dynamic day to night transitions to hit 60FPS. Joe Bloggs probably won't care if its running 30FPS over 60FPS but might go wow at the pretty graphics and show all his mates who might go out and buy a PS4.
velociraptor
Junior Member
Can't wait for the inevitable shitstorm that ensues in this thread when Driveclub is confirmed to be 30FPS. GAF, temper your expectations. As much as I personally would like DC to be a 60FPS racer, it's highly unlikely to happen. You simply don't flick a switch and double the framerate. Also consider the fact this is a launch title. I doubt they've got enough time to actually make this game run at that framerate.
I do think it's pretty good that everyone has been critical of 30FPS games. The more games that run at 60 frames, the better, unless they look as good as The Division.
I do think it's pretty good that everyone has been critical of 30FPS games. The more games that run at 60 frames, the better, unless they look as good as The Division.
travisbickle
Member
Gavarms, the instagram says:
We've got a special #DRIVECLUB video coming soon. This bad boy is going to be involved #PlayStationGC
just now, did it change or did you write it incorrectly from memory?
and how soon is now?
We've got a special #DRIVECLUB video coming soon. This bad boy is going to be involved #PlayStationGC
just now, did it change or did you write it incorrectly from memory?
and how soon is now?
AbandonedTrolley
Member
I don't think anyone thinks it's as easy as flipping a switch but the code seen so far was 35% complete apparently and pretty old. Evo have a history of making some magic happen between what they show along the lines and what we end up with. I'd love it to be 60FPS but I'm not going to cry if it isn't I'll be upgrading to the full product either way.
travisbickle
Member
TheLegendOfMart
Banned
I'm not him.
This is a mess.
How hard is it for the developers to confirm DC is 30fps or 60fps game.
They should have done it months ago. "DC is going to be 30fps, but it will offer superior graphics, physics, large expansive non-sterile tracks that are not possible in a 60fps game."
Everybody would be happy. Apart from the "I-only-accept-60fps"-trolls obviously.
How hard is it for the developers to confirm DC is 30fps or 60fps game.
They should have done it months ago. "DC is going to be 30fps, but it will offer superior graphics, physics, large expansive non-sterile tracks that are not possible in a 60fps game."
Everybody would be happy. Apart from the "I-only-accept-60fps"-trolls obviously.
it isn't hard at all. What is hard is the developers answering specific questions to a random internet forum when that isn't in their PR plans. Clearly they've gone quiet since E3, and the next time you'll see them will be at Gamescom. Hopefully they'll have some interview time with websites etc during the week and we'll get the answer to that question then.
Not hard to wait a day and a half really, now we've waited a couple of months since E3.
Or possibly more trailers. But if the dude from Bizarre has anything to do with them just like he did with E3, it'll be badarse.
Edit: Some non-60fps related info: Hybrid (who performed the song "Be Here Now" that was used in the E3 trailer) have mentioned they're actually working on the game, not just supplying one song. From that, I think it's safe to say that DC will have a similar musical theme to it as PGR4 had with "Shadow" by The Prodigy, where it's interwoven with as much of the game to tie it all into each other.
sleeping_dragon
Banned
Well apparently I demanded dynamics weather and night mode (which exist in GT5) in the Forza 5 thread and I was called a troll. So go figure.
Wax Free Vanilla
Member
New demo build, four new cars from different manufacturers, circuit based in a new location, will show day to night change.
Special videos? Definitely live action stuff.
SilentFlyer
Member
There won't be full 24 cycle but just change of a day as Rushy said.
Paul Rustchynsky
@Rushy33
@JAGLeMans @Sid_GAFfer We will have change of day as part of the demo, although it won't be a full 24hr cycle.
blastprocessor
The Amiga Brotherhood
Looking forward to the new video and seeing how far they've progressed
It's probably harder than you think. They're working with new hardware and probably still trying to leverage all the resources available to them. The game's still in development so they don't want to commit to anything quite yet.
Huh, I put him on my ignore list weeks ago. He has that one annoying screed he just posts over and over and over again, and to put it mildly threads aren't exactly hurt by his absence.
The "very foundation"? Do you appreciate what you're implying? A simple, non-interactive movie @ 60 fps would have better gameplay than an actual game @ 30fps, according to that logic.
Just in case you were wondering why people are having a hard time taking you seriously
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Funny true fact:
Racing games were one of the first genres to specifically adopt a 30fps standard because the usual "into the screen" view suffers far less from persistence-of-vision juddering artefacts than titles that move in a planar (x/y scrolling) fashion.
You have anything with high-contrast vertical edges running in 2 frames (that's 25/30hz) on a CRT and it looks real ugly compared to stuff running in a frame, however this effect largely disappears when zooming into the screen as sub-pixel jitter tends to cover it.
And yeah, people really need to get their heads round the fact that there's more to responsiveness than refresh-rate. Its how often you poll the controller and update the simulation that matters in a gameplay sense; the speed with which the framebuffer updates can and *should* be unhooked.
The big laugh of course is when you drop vsync and you end up with 2 separate frames worth of data perceptibly appearing (what is above and below the "tear" are two separate refreshes), which part of the frame represents your current state and therefore how much "lag" are you experiencing?
Leadbetter and co have a lot to answer for. Their crude, camera-based testing methodology is intrinsically flawed when it comes to measuring input lag as its entirely dependent on framebuffer state changes and has absolutely no way of differentiating between vsync/non-vsync refreshing.
Racing games were one of the first genres to specifically adopt a 30fps standard because the usual "into the screen" view suffers far less from persistence-of-vision juddering artefacts than titles that move in a planar (x/y scrolling) fashion.
You have anything with high-contrast vertical edges running in 2 frames (that's 25/30hz) on a CRT and it looks real ugly compared to stuff running in a frame, however this effect largely disappears when zooming into the screen as sub-pixel jitter tends to cover it.
And yeah, people really need to get their heads round the fact that there's more to responsiveness than refresh-rate. Its how often you poll the controller and update the simulation that matters in a gameplay sense; the speed with which the framebuffer updates can and *should* be unhooked.
The big laugh of course is when you drop vsync and you end up with 2 separate frames worth of data perceptibly appearing (what is above and below the "tear" are two separate refreshes), which part of the frame represents your current state and therefore how much "lag" are you experiencing?
Leadbetter and co have a lot to answer for. Their crude, camera-based testing methodology is intrinsically flawed when it comes to measuring input lag as its entirely dependent on framebuffer state changes and has absolutely no way of differentiating between vsync/non-vsync refreshing.
You did not demanded weather or night mode. You said FM5 will not hit 60fps on the Xbox One.
Then even before people said you were trolling, you just confirmed
lol
ChronotriggerJM
Member
You gotta take your logic elsewhere and shove it ;/
Someone said it very correctly in either this thread or some other Driveclub whinefest. If the PS4 had an Nvidia Titan in it, Evolution would still try to maximize visual fidelity before defaulting on a 60 FPS framerate. It's a developer decision people. Not hardware law. There is no magic button you can press to instantly boost your framerate and have best quality graphics and effects. It will be a tradeoff, always and forever. There's a reason you don't have amazing multi-player set-pieces and crazy visual effects in COD online. You don't get both. Good on you to have a preference, but just remember, it's just that, a preference. Speak with your wallet and stop trolling. The "input lag" reasoning is bs for so many reasons.
All my wheels tends to object.
ChronotriggerJM
Member
There's already quite a few posts describing that "input lag" isn't necessarily paired with display lag, and that display lag differences between 30 and 60 FPS would take super human reflexes to discern between. 60 FPS is a visual benefit long before it's a control factor.
The "very foundation"? Do you appreciate what you're implying? A simple, non-interactive movie @ 60 fps would have better gameplay than an actual game @ 30fps, according to that logic.
Just in case you were wondering why people are having a hard time taking you seriously
Dude, that's not how logic works. I never said that 60FPS equals great gameplay. I said it's the foundation. This is a complete misinterpretation.