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[ethelred]

What 'problem'?

Some people like discussing sales numbers and looking at trends.

If you're not one of those people then all you have to do is avoid these threads.

I don't see a problem. You don't see me going into the official Madden 06 thread and moaning because I don't like American Football.

Agreed. People are discussing it because it's really interesting and incredibly fluid. There hasn't been competition like this in the so called Console Wars in... well, since SNES vs. Genesis (or very early N64 vs. Saturn vs. PSX).

Sales threads are always clearly identifiable in the subject lines, so they're easy to ignore.

 

[cvxfreak]

What 'problem'?

Some people like discussing sales numbers and looking at trends.

If you're not one of those people then all you have to do is avoid these threads.

I don't see a problem. You don't see me going into the official Madden 06 thread and moaning because I don't like American Football.

QFT.

 

[Beowvlf]

If you're not one of those people then all you have to do is avoid these threads.

Understood, but you glossed over my point, which is simple; why are Non-gaming-related discussions seperated from this forum? Because they are not of the same topic as designated by the forum heading, correct?

I will now quote myself:

Discussion on the topic is fine; it's relevant in concern to the amount of support a system may or may not receive. But topics and focus to the extent that has been going on in the last 8 weeks is borderline offtopic considering the heading of the forum is 'Gaming Discussion'.

 

[ethelred]

Understood, but you glossed over my point, which is simple; why are Non-gaming-related discussions seperated from this forum? Because they are not of the same topic as designated by the forum heading, correct?

I will now quote myself:

Consoles aren't gaming related?

 

[cvxfreak]

Understood, but you glossed over my point, which is simple; why are Non-gaming-related discussions seperated from this forum? Because they are not of the same topic as designated by the forum heading, correct?

I will now quote myself:

1. The mods don't have a problem with it
2. Sales figures related to gaming is still discussion about gaming

 

[GaimeGuy]

"The PSP owned the DS! It costs more but is selling just as well!"
"The PSP owned the DS! It doesn't have as many big games but it's selling just as well!" (and no, this isn't what I'd say. People HAVE used this excuse in this very thread.)
"The PSP owned the DS! It didn't release until april, yet still sold about on par with the DS for the whole year!"
"The DS owned the PSP! PSP was released in April, and by the time the launch hype died down, we were in the holiday season. It had the opportunity for consistently high sales for about 9 months, yet it couldn't surpass the DS!"
"The DS owned the PSP! The software is so much better on DS than PSP!"
"The DS owned the PSP despite GTA. LOL"
"The DS owned the PSP! DS is an entire generation behind the PSP and PSP still couldn't outsell it."

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH

 

[ioi]

"The PSP owned the DS! It costs more but is selling just as well!"
"The PSP owned the DS! It doesn't have as many big games but it's selling just as well!" (and no, this isn't what I'd say. People HAVE used this excuse in this very thread.)
"The PSP owned the DS! It didn't release until april, yet still sold about on par with the DS for the whole year!"
"The DS owned the PSP! PSP was released in April, and by the time the launch hype died down, we were in the holiday season. It had the opportunity for consistently high sales for about 9 months, yet it couldn't surpass the DS!"
"The DS owned the PSP! The software is so much better on DS than PSP!"
"The DS owned the PSP despite GTA. LOL"
"The DS owned the PSP! DS is an entire generation behind the PSP and PSP still couldn't outsell it."

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH

yeah but nobody really has argued anything yet.

Both systems are doing well. It's about neck and neck in the US after a strong start for both (4 months later for PSP) they have converged and there's nothing in it. Japan is a mauling but we know that already and it's more that the DS is doing so well than the PSP isn't. However, stay tuned for the next post:

 

[ioi]

From Famitsu numbers, DS and PSP software in Japan:

From Famitsu numbers, DS and PSP tie ratios in Japan:

Thanks to CVX for the numbers.

 

[cvxfreak]

No problem ioi.

And those are COMPLETE totals. So if a game for either platform sold 3 copies for the month, it's recorded on there.

 

[ioi]

No problem ioi.

And those are COMPLETE totals. So if a game for either platform sold 3 copies for the month, it's recorded on there.

Yep and the problem for the PSP in Japan is that the tie ratio is actually DECREASING so people are buying even less than 1.8 games per system in recent months (1.6 in December if you divide Dec software by Dec hardware).

 

[Yamauchi]

The DS is a cash machine for Nintendo.

 

[Mook1e]

People bought the PS2 continuously when it was $300. I see no reason why many of those who bought the PS2 at the same price wouldn't do so for the PSP. And I find the PSP's current sucess unsurprising in the least. As Ethelred said, unlike all the other competitors, Sony had an established name to go along with their machine.

Sega and Atari?
Those weren't established names?

 

[Mook1e]

Very nice graphs. It is good to see both are doing well.

I am worried though about the PSP though. I mean the sales weren't what everyone(probably including Sony) expected.

Any one know how much of a loss they are selling them at? I am not even sure if they are selling them at a loss, but goddamn that thing has to cost a lot to make. And it is kind of Sony strategy to sell the Playstation line at a loss.

Didn't Sony expect to build 12 million PSPs from Launch to Mar 06'?
And they've increased that number twice, correct?
Software sales outside of Japan are strong.
I would also think that the success of the $15-$20 ($.50 to make) UMD format is a great success as well.

 

[Oblivion]

Sega and Atari?
Those weren't established names?

Sega had the name, but I the gamegear had too many problems. Didn't even know Atari had a handheld.

 

[Mook1e]

Sega had the name, but I the gamegear had too many problems. Didn't even know Atari had a handheld.

Which other big name competitors where there?

 

[Fuzzy]

From Famitsu numbers, DS and PSP software in Japan:

It's interesting to note that in the US the PSP has sold a little more than double the amount of software than it has in Japan (9.76 million vs 4.75 million).

 

[Oblivion]

Which other big name competitors where there?

Uh...Nintendo, I guess. Not following you, here.

 

[Mook1e]

Uh...Nintendo, I guess. Not following you, here.

You said:

...unlike all the other competitors, Sony had an established name to go along with their machine.

What other competitors are you talking about?

 

[Galactic Fork]

Sega had the name, but I the gamegear had too many problems. Didn't even know Atari had a handheld.

They had the Lynx, I really wanted one when I was a kid... Gee, they had a cat thing going didn't they?

 

[ethelred]

Which other big name competitors where there?

That's the whole point. When a major gaming brand name enters a new gaming market, it's expected that they'll do fairly well. This hasn't happened too many times in the handheld market -- the main example is Sega (and the Game Gear did do very well, in fact).

In this case, given the power of the PlayStation brand name and the power of the console itself (and its role as continuing Sony's philosophy of blending multimedia entertainment with gaming), the expectation was that it would do very, very well. Not that it would flop simply because this time it's handhelds instead of home consoles.

What other competitors are you talking about?

Most of the companies which have developed handheld gaming machines have been tangential players (if even that) in the gaming industry -- the Gizmondo, the N-Gage, those are the two examples from this current generation, but there have been plenty of others over the years. The point is, no one expected Nokia to overtake or beat Nintendo in *any* gaming capacity. Sony, on the other hand, is Sony, and the expectations, and its abilities with regards to entering a new gaming market -- are very different.

 

[Mook1e]

That's the whole point. When a major gaming brand name enters a new gaming market, it's expected that they'll do fairly well. This hasn't happened too many times in the handheld market -- the main example is Sega (and the Game Gear did do very well, in fact).

In this case, given the power of the PlayStation brand name and the power of the console itself (and its role as continuing Sony's philosophy of blending multimedia entertainment with gaming), the expectation was that it would do very, very well. Not that it would flop simply because this time it's handhelds instead of home consoles.




Most of the companies which have developed handheld gaming machines have been tangential players (if even that) in the gaming industry -- the Gizmondo, the N-Gage, those are the two examples from this current generation, but there have been plenty of others over the years. The point is, no one expected Nokia to overtake or beat Nintendo in *any* gaming capacity. Sony, on the other hand, is Sony, and the expectations, and its abilities with regards to entering a new gaming market -- are very different.

Whenever anyone mentions a former competitor to Nintendo's handhelds, I don't think about Gizmondo or N-Gage.
I think of TG16, Lynx, and Game Gear. None of those companies were newcomers to gaming.

 

[Spencerr]

Sales are dumb.

Spoiler

I think I'll just start saying this in every sales thread until it becomes my thing. Go play games.

 

[Raven.]

Oh wait
1. That'll cut into Sony's profits

It will happen eventually irregardless.

2. Nintendo can easily counter any price drop.

GC

 

[Oblivion]

GC

DS != GC

 

[ethelred]

Whenever anyone mentions a former competitor to Nintendo's handhelds, I don't think about Gizmondo or N-Gage.
I think of TG16, Lynx, and Game Gear. None of those companies were newcomers to gaming.

The Turbo Express was made by NEC, and you're just proving my point there. NEC was never the major player in the gaming industry that Nintendo, Sony, or Sega were. It was a niche company with niche consoles. Sony entered the handheld market as THE dominant home console maker. Not even remotely comparable.

The Lynx launched at the same time as the Game Boy, so it's not really relevant to the discussion -- companies challenging Nintendo's longstanding dominance of handhelds.

The Game Gear fared very well and had a good market share of the handheld market. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it commanded a comparable marketshare that the PSP has now. Either way, it was hardly a disaster.

 

[DDayton]

The DS is lost in Europe, though. There's absolutely no hope for Nintendo.

... I thought the sales of both the PSP and DS were roughly similar in Europe?

 

[Raven.]

DS != GC

In uglyness, you could argue it tops it. True this is another market, but I doubt anywhere outside of japan it's going to be able to compete with the psp once it drops to a more consumer friendly price point.

I just don't see it happening, the psp looks basically like a gba successor, has better gphx, extra functionality, the works. Right now battery life, price, and lack of games hinder it. Once it moves on to 65nm, batttery life should improve, price should drop, and more AAA games should be available by then.

The DS on the other hand looks like a monstrocity, I'm not sure any h/w revision is going to be able to make it look slick. Maybe some miracle h/w designer will make it, but I doubt it. In usa/europe it's selling cause it's no decent competition at a relative price + the games + the loyal fan base. It's gonna keep selling hot, but as the prices fall I see the gba market being eaten away by the psp in the future not the ds.

 

[Mook1e]

The Turbo Express was made by NEC, and you're just proving my point there. NEC was never the major player in the gaming industry that Nintendo, Sony, or Sega were. It was a niche company with niche consoles. Sony entered the handheld market as THE dominant home console maker. Not even remotely comparable.

The Lynx launched at the same time as the Game Boy, so it's not really relevant to the discussion -- companies challenging Nintendo's longstanding dominance of handhelds.

The Game Gear fared very well and had a good market share of the handheld market. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it commanded a comparable marketshare that the PSP has now. Either way, it was hardly a disaster.

When GB began, Nintendo, Sega, and Atari were the only BIG players. NEC was much smaller, but those have been the only real competitors with Nintendo in the handheld arena before N-Gage/PSP. (I don't even count Gizmondo, it's like counting Tapwave)
It doesn't matter if Lynx launched at the same time as Game Boy. They were competitors and Nintendo won. That's the point.
Honestly, Sega and Atari were the only competition and they were both big game companies.
Game Gear wasn't a disaster, but it didn't compete as equally as PSP is now with the then-current Nintendo system.

 

[Brofist]

It's not the topic that there is a problem with, it's that there are 200 topics like this weekly. Make one official DS sales topic and be done with it, that way the whole forum isn't sales age.

 

[ziran]

thanks for the info ioi, good work.

From Famitsu numbers, DS and PSP software in Japan:

From Famitsu numbers, DS and PSP tie ratios in Japan:

Thanks to CVX for the numbers.

great to see ds software selling so well.

 

[Ruud_Luiten]

great graphs, could you please add the GBA to these lists?

 

[Rekwest]

And in Latinamerica. Hasn't the PSP already surpassed the DS in Mexico? I would'nt doubt the rest of Latinamerica to come shortly unless Nintendo gets their stuff to gear.

 

[ioi]

It's not the topic that there is a problem with, it's that there are 200 topics like this weekly. Make one official DS sales topic and be done with it, that way the whole forum isn't sales age.

Some people want it to be Sales Age.

What's wrong with people?

If you don't like sales threads don't come into them. Is it that hard?

What do you want me to add for GBA, the last 12 months? The 12 months after it launched?

 

[Fuzzy]

ioi, did you read my PM? Put up the US graphs.

 

[jarrod]

Sega and Atari?
Those weren't established names?

Atari's brand was already damaged beyond repair, but Game Gear did rather well. It managed to eat roughly a fourth of the handheld market in it's prime actually (a third in America).

Game Gear wasn't a disaster, but it didn't compete as equally as PSP is now with the then-current Nintendo system.

GB (June 1988) was already well established by the time GG (October 1990) hit market. GG didn't have the luxury of launching alongside a Nintendo handheld like PSP did, yet it still scraped out a stunning marketshare overall (roughly 12 million Game Gears to roughly 38 million Game Boys) even with almost nonexistant eastern support.

Comparing GG to GB launching years earlier is almost like comparing PSP to GBA.

 

[ioi]

Updated all the charts on the first page with tie ratios and so forth.

Enjoy

 

[Brofist]

Some people want it to be Sales Age.

What's wrong with people?

If you don't like sales threads don't come into them. Is it that hard?

What do you want me to add for GBA, the last 12 months? The 12 months after it launched?

Well no actually it's not that hard, and generally I don't enter the sales topics. But I did enter this one, and this comment got me thinking

What 'problem'?

Some people like discussing sales numbers and looking at trends.

If you're not one of those people then all you have to do is avoid these threads.

I don't see a problem. You don't see me going into the official Madden 06 thread and moaning because I don't like American Football.

see I actually thought you made a good point, but the point you missed is that there aren't 15 official Madden threads running on the front page of the forum at any given time, and I don't have to wade through Madden topics to find other topics. The reason is because there was only one official Madden thread. Hence there should be one official DS sales thread that can be updated regularly with the latest and greatest charts and figures. I think it would be better anyway because it would be a nice database where anyone can find sales figures without having to search all the sales topics on GAF.

 

[ioi]

Hence there should be one official DS sales thread that can be updated regularly with the latest and greatest charts and figures. I think it would be better anyway because it would be a nice database where anyone can find sales figures without having to search all the sales topics on GAF.

I agree that wouldn't be a bad idea in principle and if people want to use this thread to update some numbers in the future then fine.

Difference is that there are a lot more people on here interested in sales than Madden believe it or not. There are a number of different sources of sales numbers, pr, tracking services so can you imagine what a nightmare it would be reading all the way through a thread to find the piece of info you're interested in when it's 500 pages long?

I don't disagree that maybe a "sales discussion" board would be a good idea to keep things together? I've found the archive quite useful so far though, and that is kind of serving this purpose.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Atari was not a major player anymore by the time they released the Lynx. Period.

Sega certainly was at the top of the game when they launched the Game Gear, though.

Simplistic analogies for the lose.

 

[Frankfurter]

... I thought the sales of both the PSP and DS were roughly similar in Europe?

The sales of DS in Europe are most likely atleast half a million higher than the PSP sales.

Didn't Sony expect to build 12 million PSPs from Launch to Mar 06'? And they've increased that number twice, correct?

They expected to produce 12 million PSP's in this financial year (April 05 - March 06) + the ~3m from the months before that - and yeah they actually increased their production shipment expectation (or however it is called) twice, although I still don't know what they are gonna do with these millions of PSP's

 

[ioi]

The sales of DS in Europe are most likely atleast half a million higher than the PSP sales.

Sounds about right. I could do "estimated" charts for Europe if people want?

 

[svenuce]

Now remove first party sales from both platforms and look at it from the perspective as a potential third party publisher/developer. Which looks more attractive in each market?

 

[Cheebs]

DS in Japan still, by a large margin.

 

[conker]

Software sales are now the more important charts anyway.

I think it's pretty clear that the PSP has lost in Japan.
In the US it's about the same, but the DS has a bit of a lead since it launched first.
In the UK, the PSP has a bit of a lead.

But it's the software that really matters.
I know in the next month I'll be buying 5 or 6 DS games, plus other games.

Wallet am cry.

 

[The Friendly Monster]

It will happen eventually irregardless.

At least speak English man!

 

[Earthstrike]

Now remove first party sales from both platforms and look at it from the perspective as a potential third party publisher/developer. Which looks more attractive in each market?

You have to factor in development costs.
The DS may have less third party sales but are these so much less that a company won't profit as much?
Also, are you a good enough company to produce a quality game? Burnout on DS sucked ass and didn't sell well because the franchise didn't fit. If you want sales on the DS all you have to do is produce a quality game.
Castlevania is turning a profit.
Pheonix Wright is
and so is Trauma center.

 

[jarrod]

Now remove first party sales from both platforms and look at it from the perspective as a potential third party publisher/developer. Which looks more attractive in each market?

Depends on the publisher. If you're EA, then PSP. If you're SEGA, then DS.

Most software sales on DS tend to go to Nintendo. Most software sales on PSP tend to go to EA/Sony/GTA. Everyone else is kind of squeezed out on both sides.

 

[ethelred]

Depends on the publisher. If you're EA, then PSP. If you're SEGA, then DS.

Most software sales on DS tend to go to Nintendo. Most software sales on PSP tend to go to EA/Sony/GTA. Everyone else is kind of squeezed out on both sides.

Don't forget Bandai -- that company has done extremely well with the DS so far between Tamagotchi (first third party million seller on either DS or PSP) and Dragon Ball Z. Also, Square's done pretty well on the DS so far, as Slime Mori Mori 2 -- which is not exactly a top tier franchise -- has sold about 200k so far, only slightly behind the GBA installment. I imagine SE was satisfied with those sales.

 

[ioi]

Now remove first party sales from both platforms and look at it from the perspective as a potential third party publisher/developer. Which looks more attractive in each market?

Well at the moment the obvious answer is DS in Japan and PSP (just) in the US.

 

[sonycowboy]

Well at the moment the obvious answer is DS in Japan and PSP (just) in the US.

Just?