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[Ascend]

No speech should be illegal unless it puts people in immediate danger such as yelling fire in a theater or calling for the extermination of a specific group of people. Beyond that, anything should be allowed because the minute we start to censor, it can and will be abused

Not sure I fully agree... I do agree that in terms of laws, speech censorship should not be implemented, because it will indeed be abused. I do think general human decency is required for society to work properly though... So I can't go around acting like an ass to everyone because of freedom of speech. Well, I can, but, I don't think that's how it should be, and I don't think it should be allowed, socially. It's the reason why threats to kill someone are taken seriously, even though they are technically just words and not actions and technically do not harm anyone physically. The lines are blurry here, because, speech that incites violence should be avoided, but, putting it into laws opens the way to mass oppression...

Where we disagree is about the action - there is nothing harmful about it. No one is getting hurt physically by it. Someone getting triggered does not mean they're being harmed. Offence is taken, not given.

Your brain does not know the difference between emotional pain and physical pain. Pain is pain, although I do understand where you're coming from. The whole materialistic perspective of the world is keen on making personal experiences irrelevant, even though that's basically all life is. That being said, something hurting you emotionally, generally means there is something wrong inside yourself rather than the outside world, a lot of the time. It's a lot easier to blame the outside world for it rather than fixing yourself... So, I don't disagree with you on that point.

The difference arises between the personal like I just described, and the institutional (for lack of a better word). When a trauma becomes directly related to the political, like in the case of Nazis and their salutes etc, the mass of people that have an emotional pain associated with certain things, creates taboos, mainly for protection of the masses. That's why you'll get jailed if you do the Nazi salute in Germany. The same ideas cannot always be applied on both an individual level as on a mass level. And in this case, I think this is part of the issue, because the dude was on Live TV where basically the whole world can hear, and since there is a difference between the personal and the institutional, some things are ok on the personal level, and not ok on the institutional level.

It was a hot mic situation where he made a joke about someone he knew. There was clearly no intent to paint all Germans as nazis or something. The fact that EA, in itself one of the most unethical gaming companies in history, removes him yet has no problem working with Fifa in general shows the extreme hypocrisy. Fifa is one of the most corrupt organizations in the world. They gladly work with countries that uses slaves to build stadiums as long as they get some nice bribes to go with it

I fully agree here...

Can a black dude even wear blackface I wonder?

Here we go again....

But they do apply black make up. Do some of your own research instead of mindlessly repeating the crap politics and media feed you.

Typical avoidance of the issue... Whether they do apply black make-up or not, it is racist to say that black people don't require make-up to play zwarte piet.

Freedom of speech is a principle that supports the freedom to articulate opinions and ideas without fear of retaliation, censorship, or legal sanction.

Yeah... Sounds nice, but it doesn't work like that in practice, especially the retaliation part. Example? Let a man say that men are better than women on national TV, and tell me he's free of retaliation. And that's even a mild example.

It's much broader than "speaking out against a government."

Yeah, it is, but, that was not its original intent.

Opinions and ideas can potentially be offensive to others, but that's part of living in a free society. You're eventually going to run into things you don't like. The important thing is how you deal with it. Demanding all things you don't like to be removed, is more like a dictatorship, which has no place in a free society.

The whole "free society" part is debatable, but that's another topic for another time.
So sure, you can't demand to remove all things that you don't like. But, opinions and ideas are worthless if not put into some sort of action. Ideas create and change behavior. And inevitably there are some people that think that things like racism and sexism, are ok. Based on your argument, it is completely ok for someone to say that he hates Asians for example and there should be no need to address such thinking. Yeah... I can't really agree with that.

 

[Katsura]

Not sure I fully agree... I do agree that in terms of laws, speech censorship should not be implemented, because it will indeed be abused. I do think general human decency is required for society to work properly though... So I can't go around acting like an ass to everyone because of freedom of speech. Well, I can, but, I don't think that's how it should be, and I don't think it should be allowed, socially. It's the reason why threats to kill someone are taken seriously, even though they are technically just words and not actions and technically do not harm anyone physically. The lines are blurry here, because, speech that incites violence should be avoided, but, putting it into laws opens the way to mass oppression...

Threats to kill someone would fall under the 'put someone specific in immediate danger'. Yes, a civilized society requires basic decency, no question about it. I'm not saying that anyone is free to say anything without social consequences. If you go around spouting nazi ideas, it's only fair to expect most people don't want to have anything to do with you

The difference arises between the personal like I just described, and the institutional (for lack of a better word). When a trauma becomes directly related to the political, like in the case of Nazis and their salutes etc, the mass of people that have an emotional pain associated with certain things, creates taboos, mainly for protection of the masses. That's why you'll get jailed if you do the Nazi salute in Germany. The same ideas cannot always be applied on both an individual level as on a mass level. And in this case, I think this is part of the issue, because the dude was on Live TV where basically the whole world can hear, and since there is a difference between the personal and the institutional, some things are ok on the personal level, and not ok on the institutional level.

There is an important distinction between something being taboo and something being illegal. It should not be illegal to do a nazi salute or to spout their ideology. Once you start down the road of making words illegal because someone might have an emotional reaction to them, it will only escalate. There is always someone who will be offended by even the mildest joke, not to mention the people who will abuse it to silence opposition. Remember the whole punch a nazi thing? Those people justify political violence because they're punching nazis. Except, they're not. It turns out nazi to them is anyone on the right. The vast majority of those people probably couldn't define what a nazi is. It's the same thing we're seeing with facism. This is what happens when we don't constantly protect our freedom of speech

There is also a good amount of hypocrisy here. Communism has killed significantly more people than nazism, yet it's not illegal to spout communist rhetoric

I fully agree here...

I'm glad we can find some common ground

 

[InterMusketeer]

Yeah, it is, but, that was not its original intent.

The original intent of old laws doesn't matter.

Based on your argument, it is completely ok for someone to say that he hates Asians for example and there should be no need to address such thinking. Yeah... I can't really agree with that.

You can't control people's thoughts or opinions, and that was never the intent of these laws anyway. What's important, is that people don't act upon this hatred or entice others to do so. We have laws to prevent this, and to deal with it when it does happen.

 

[Ascend]

The original intent of old laws doesn't matter.

It doesn't in society, but, it mattered in the context of my argument.

You can't control people's thoughts or opinions, and that was never the intent of these laws anyway. What's important, is that people don't act upon this hatred or entice others to do so. We have laws to prevent this, and to deal with it when it does happen.

My point was freedom of speech being used by certain people as an excuse to say whatever they want whenever they want, and, it shouldn't work that way either. See my discussion above with Katsura and you'll see what I mean.

I'm glad we can find some common ground

Agreed....

 

[Damien Crowley]

There is also a good amount of hypocrisy here. Communism has killed significantly more people than nazism, yet it's not illegal to spout communist rhetoric

The thing with that is... well... man, this is a stupid take, sorry, but really?

Nazism rhetoric: "You are less worth than me! Fuck your rights you and everyone who is like you or likes you!"
Communist rhetoric: "Everybody is worth the same and has the same rights! Fuck you for thinking otherwise!"

Guess, what's more okay to "spout"!

The illegality-problem here is pretty simple, as far as it comes to Germany at least. The understanding, that there can't be tolerance for intolerant rhetoric after WW2. If you tolerate Nazis, they will fuck you up, because they don't work on that same standard as you. In their eyes, you do not of equal worth as them, be it because of nationality, sexuality, gender or something else pretty stupid. Problem is, these days a lot of people forgot this.

 

[Katsura]

The thing with that is... well... man, this is a stupid take, sorry, but really?

Nazism rhetoric: "You are less worth than me! Fuck your rights you and everyone who is like you or likes you!"
Communist rhetoric: "Everybody is worth the same and has the same rights! Fuck you for thinking otherwise!"

Guess, what's more okay to "spout"!

The illegality-problem here is pretty simple, as far as it comes to Germany at least. The understanding, that there can't be tolerance for intolerant rhetoric after WW2. If you tolerate Nazis, they will fuck you up, because they don't work on that same standard as you. In their eyes, you do not of equal worth as them, be it because of nationality, sexuality, gender or something else pretty stupid. Problem is, these days a lot of people forgot this.

So what? Are people who were hurt by communism less important than those who were hurt by nazism? It's not just about rhetoric but symbols, gestures etc. Far more people have been hurt by communism yet most countries have communist parties. Where is your objection to that if i'm supposed to believe you care about the negative emotions seeing such things can invoke?
Also, please don't start with Karl Poppers unless you have actually read his work. Most people who bring up the whole 'no tolerance for the intolerant' thing only knows about it from some stupid cartoon they saw on twatter. A cartoon that completely missed the point of what he actually said

 

[Damien Crowley]

So what? Are people who were hurt by communism less important than those who were hurt by nazism? It's not just about rhetoric but symbols, gestures etc. Far more people have been hurt by communism yet most countries have communist parties. Where is your objection to that if i'm supposed to believe you care about the negative emotions seeing such things can invoke?
Also, please don't start with Karl Poppers unless you have actually read his work. Most people who bring up the whole 'no tolerance for the intolerant' thing only knows about it from some stupid cartoon they saw on twatter. A cartoon that completely missed the point of what he actually said

I know about the whole thing through fucking experience. Try to have a teenage life in some of the rural areas of germany without coming in contact with neonazi-idiots. Try to tolerate their stupid shit, while they punch and kick you for just being there. See, how far you get with that.

And you brought up rhetoric. So I posted (simplified as fuck, I know) the respective rhetoric. Speech of "yay let's all be friends" runs (hopefully) better with most of the people than "yay, we hate everyone who is not us", regardless of the regimes that perverted the first.

 

[Night.Ninja]

So seig hair is not actually racist in anyway, learn something new everyday

 

[Katsura]

I know about the whole thing through fucking experience. Try to have a teenage life in some of the rural areas of germany without coming in contact with neonazi-idiots. Try to tolerate their stupid shit, while they punch and kick you for just being there. See, how far you get with that.

And you brought up rhetoric. So I posted (simplified as fuck, I know) the respective rhetoric. Speech of "yay let's all be friends" runs (hopefully) better with most of the people than "yay, we hate everyone who is not us", regardless of the regimes that perverted the first.

If someone punched and kicked you, they committed a crime. That has nothing to do with freedom of speech. Freedom of speech does not involve tolerating violence. Actual violence mind you, not mean words. Also, you're grossly misrepresenting communism. I travelled fairly extensively in USSR, DDR and Bulgaria so i know a thing or 2 about how communism works out

 

[Psykodad]

So seig hair is not actually racist in anyway, learn something new everyday

Sieg Heil is Nazi-specific though.
Not even sure why this is up for debate.

It's all about context though, especially in Van Basten's case.

 

[Damien Crowley]

If someone punched and kicked you, they committed a crime. That has nothing to do with freedom of speech. Freedom of speech does not involve tolerating violence. Actual violence mind you, not mean words. Also, you're grossly misrepresenting communism. I travelled fairly extensively in USSR, DDR and Bulgaria so i know a thing or 2 about how communism works out

Ooooh, you travelled. East Germany boy here, rolling his eyes.

To come to an understanding about communism. There was and is no country in the world that had unfuckered communism. This theory itself can't go live unfuckered because of one simple factor. Humans. Fucking bunch of assholes.

Buuuut, the rhetoric, even the one used in dictatorships and terror regimes masked as communist states, still is front and center "equality for each and everyone". What fuckery lies behind the words is not the problem of the message.
When nazism says, "yeah, there are these people who weren't born here (or their parents weren't born here or their grandparents), so they have to die!"... the message itself is fucking evil.

 

[Katsura]

Ooooh, you travelled. East Germany boy here, rolling his eyes.

To come to an understanding about communism. There was and is no country in the world that had unfuckered communism. This theory itself can't go live unfuckered because of one simple factor. Humans. Fucking bunch of assholes.

Buuuut, the rhetoric, even the one used in dictatorships and terror regimes masked as communist states, still is front and center "equality for each and everyone". What fuckery lies behind the words is not the problem of the message.
When nazism says, "yeah, there are these people who weren't born here (or their parents weren't born here or their grandparents), so they have to die!"... the message itself is fucking evil.

Except you keep ignoring the part where communism dictates a violent revolution. Roll your eyes all you want, but you're either ignorant or dishonest about communism. You're also dangerously close to the ever popular yet extremely moronic ' It wasn't real communism. It was implemented the wrong way'. There has not been a single country in history where the implementation of communism didn't lead to the death of many citizens. It is a violent ideology by it's very nature and the fact you're ok with that while wanting to ban anything related to nazism exposes you as a hypocrite

Which brings us back to the issue of freedom of speech. Nazi, communists, what ever, should be allowed free speech. It doesn't matter how reprehensible the shit they say. That's the entire point of freedom of speech

Tying this into the actual topic of the thread - Van Basten has been pulled from Fifa. That is obviously well within EA's rights to do but they're also being gigantic hypocrites. They work with Fifa which in itself is corrupt. There have been other players in previous iterations of the game that didn't just make a joke but were actual extremists. Paulo Di Canio is a declared fascist for example yet they had no problem with having him in the game

 

[kurisu_1974]

Typical avoidance of the issue... Whether they do apply black make-up or not, it is racist to say that black people don't require make-up to play zwarte piet.

Apologies in that case, I thought the issue was about Zwarte Piet being racist or not, what that asshole politician said I would too classify as unsavoury at minimum.

 

[Night.Ninja]

Sieg Heil is Nazi-specific though.
Not even sure why this is up for debate.

It's all about context though, especially in Van Basten's case.

just because a group of racist people used a word doesn’t means it’s racist word.

 

[Psykodad]

just because a group of racist people used a word doesn’t means it’s racist word.

Context, dude.
Are you dumb, or what?

 

[EightBit Man]

Coming back to the accusation of the blackface phenomenon; do people even know it's origins? It wasn't created to "mock black people", which of course is not acceptable, but as a means to attain certain freedoms in a thoroughly oppressive America (at the time), and you can read about this in Thaddeus Russell's wonderful work A Renegade History of the United States.

"This provocative perspective on America’s history claims that the country’s personality was defined not by the ideals of the elites and intellectuals, but by those who throughout have lived on the fringes of society history—slaves, immigrants, gangsters, and others who challenged the conventions of their day."

 

[JimmyRustler]

I chuckled when I heard him say it. Out of nowhere. What a Retard. hahahhaha

 

[Gamezone]

Is there some actual context to any of this or are we just supposed to be outraged? What was the match? Who was he taking to etc? Is there a translation of the actual conversation?

I think we're supposed to ve outraged. This is the internet.

 

[Rien]

People saying Zwarte Piet aint racist? Come on now. It racism without words but still pretty much racism.
Dont give a fuck how it is intended or originated. Its outdated, dumb and racist and its a shame we Dutchies cling on to it because tradition. Tradition is a dumb reason for not changing a life style.

I think we should get rid of the whole Sinterklaas thing too. An old white Saint with nothing but love for little children. Dont know about you guys but I dont think its good to promote that

 

[DS_Joost]

I don't think Americans are fit in any way shape or form to be judging Dutch people when it comes to racism considering the fine state your country is in.

That's just my 2c as a Dutchman.

I embrace the mob with open arms...

 

[DS_Joost]

People saying Zwarte Piet aint racist? Come on now. It racism without words but still pretty much racism.
Dont give a fuck how it is intended or originated. Its outdated, dumb and racist and its a shame we Dutchies cling on to it because tradition. Tradition is a dumb reason for not changing a life style.

I think we should get rid of the whole Sinterklaas thing too. An old white Saint with nothing but love for little children. Dont know about you guys but I dont think its good to promote that

I guess from your username you are from North Holland? If so, that would explain a lot...

 

[Kadayi]

I think we should get rid of the whole Sinterklaas thing too. An old white Saint with nothing but love for little children. Dont know about you guys but I dont think its good to promote that

You're honestly running with a pedo scare narrative for Santa Claus and you expect to be taken seriously? There aren't enough emotes out there to laugh you off this forum with that kind of cynicism. You must live a petty miserable existence to come up with that sort of blithe fear mongering.

 

[Psykodad]

You're honestly running with a pedo scare narrative for Santa Claus and you expect to be taken seriously? There aren't enough emotes out there to laugh you off this forum with that kind of cynicism. You must live a petty miserable existence to come up with that sort of blithe fear mongering.

Seems to be the new argument, since there is no proof that Sinterklaas symbolizes slavery.

 

[Rien]

I guess from your username you are from North Holland? If so, that would explain a lot...

Explain me then.

You're honestly running with a pedo scare narrative for Santa Claus and you expect to be taken seriously? There aren't enough emotes out there to laugh you off this forum with that kind of cynicism. You must live a petty miserable existence to come with with that sort of fear mongering.

Miserable existence? Lol come on now.

Okay, I take it back. I was indeed in a cynical mood.

I still stand by my Zwarte Piet opinion tho. And that we should get rid of the whole Sinterklaas thing too. If we cant find a way to enjoy a thing what is meant to be for everyone and yearly people have to feel discriminated then what’s the point?
We could come up with a different concept that everyone can stand behind.

 

[Ascend]

I don't think Americans are fit in any way shape or form to be judging Dutch people when it comes to racism considering the fine state your country is in.

That's just my 2c as a Dutchman.

I embrace the mob with open arms...

Why can't Americans say the reverse, i.e. that the Dutch are in no position to judge Americans on racism, considering the nature of Dutch holidays?

 

[Psykodad]

Explain me then.



Miserable existence? Lol come on now.

Okay, I take it back. I was indeed in a cynical mood.

I still stand by my Zwarte Piet opinion tho. And that we should get rid of the whole Sinterklaas thing too. If we cant find a way to enjoy a thing what is meant to be for everyone and yearly people have to feel discriminated then what’s the point?
We could come up with a different concept that everyone can stand behind.

That is self-imposed though. Why get rid of a tradition that is still being celebrated across the entire country by all ethnicities, just because of a tiny group of overly sensitive people?

 

[VanEs]

People saying Zwarte Piet aint racist? Come on now. It racism without words but still pretty much racism.
Dont give a fuck how it is intended or originated. Its outdated, dumb and racist and its a shame we Dutchies cling on to it because tradition. Tradition is a dumb reason for not changing a life style.

I think we should get rid of the whole Sinterklaas thing too. An old white Saint with nothing but love for little children. Dont know about you guys but I dont think its good to promote that

"Hey guys ... Black Pete is racism!" Why? "Because it's racism." Is it intended to be racist? "No, but i don't give a fuck, it's racism." It's origin is grounded in anti racism and anti slavery? "Well I don't care it's still racism!" Why?
"Because I say it is and therefore everyone else needs to adjust and adhere to my feelings. And if you won't you're a racist." "Also, Saint Nicholas is a pedo because entertaining children is gross"

That about cover it?

 

[Rien]

That is self-imposed though. Why get rid of a tradition that is still being celebrated across the entire country by all ethnicities, just because of a tiny group of overly sensitive people?

By all ethnicities? I am not sure about that. Not where I live for sure. I know it’s hard for a lot of people to get rid, or let’s say adjust, a tradition but you have to look forward I think. Sinterklaas, Zwarte Piet and the songs are old as fuck.
It doesnt hurt to fresh it up a little to todays standards and society. And if we can make sure the tiny group of people can enjoy it as well then why not?
It’s all fake in the end anyway so nothing is lost.

 

[Rien]

"Hey guys ... Black Pete is racism!" Why? "Because it's racism." Is it intended to be racist? "No, but i don't give a fuck, it's racism." It's origin is grounded in anti racism and anti slavery? "Well I don't care it's still racism!" Why?
"Because I say it is and therefore everyone else needs to adjust and adhere to my feelings. And if you won't you're a racist." "Also, Saint Nicholas is a pedo because entertaining children is gross"

That about cover it?

The low dark voice, black curly hair and big red lips are pretty obvious and even if it aint, people feel offended by it and I can understand that.
I have called black people Zwarte Piet when I was kid. Ofcourse its childrens innocence but if that kind of thing happens to you often I can imagine people feeling offended by the image.

 

[VanEs]

It doesnt hurt to fresh it up a little to todays standards and society. And if we can make sure the tiny group of people can enjoy it as well then why not?

It has already freshened up a lot over the course of 150 years or so. And it happened that way because the whole of society organically changed by consensus.
So exactly the opposite as what you are proposing where a tiny minority wants to impose its will, kicking and screaming, to the overwhelming majority of the nation.

 

[Rien]

It has already freshened up a lot over the course of 150 years or so. And it happened that way because the whole of society organically changed by consensus.
So exactly the opposite as what you are proposing where a tiny minority wants to impose its will, kicking and screaming, to the overwhelming majority of the nation.

Well it’s apparently not fresh enough.
The tiny minority is growing tho. I think they have a valid reason and got their full right to be heared.

 

[Psykodad]

By all ethnicities? I am not sure about that. Not where I live for sure. I know it’s hard for a lot of people to get rid, or let’s say adjust, a tradition but you have to look forward I think. Sinterklaas, Zwarte Piet and the songs are old as fuck.
It doesnt hurt to fresh it up a little to todays standards and society. And if we can make sure the tiny group of people can enjoy it as well then why not?
It’s all fake in the end anyway so nothing is lost.

I don't know where you live, but you want to tell me that there aren't even sinterklaas celebrations on any schools in your hometown?

I'm not gonna say that every single kid or family participates in the tradition (some also won't participate due to religious believes for example), but I can guarantee you 100% that at the very least in the north, east and south of the Netherlands (even in south/north Holland, incl the big cities in the Randstad) kids from all etnicities participate in the tradition at the very least at school.

And yes, I am aware that not every single individual participates, but that would be an unrealistic claim to begin with.

Well it’s apparently not fresh enough.
The tiny minority is growing tho. I think they have a valid reason and got their full right to be heared.

I'm willing to bet that a majority of that tiny minority are white leftists and SJWs

 

[Rien]

I don't know where you live, but you want to tell me that there aren't even sinterklaas celebrations on any schools in your hometown?

I'm not gonna say that every single kid or family participates in the tradition (some also won't participate due to religious believes for example), but I can guarantee you 100% that at the very least in the north, east and south of the Netherlands (even in south/north Holland, incl the big cities in the Randstad) kids from all etnicities participate in the tradition at the very least at school.

And yes, I am aware that not every single individual participates, but that would be an unrealistic claim to begin with.

I was thinking indeed the last part of your post. Sorry.
Not by individual but by groups. My Syrian neighbour dont celebrate Sinterklaas at home. Thats most likely by religious reasons

Yes sure the schools participate with it. It’s one of our biggest traditions we still follow each year I think? If not, one of the biggest.

 

[CrisPy2019]

...

Had to break this shit up for this particular gem. Dafuq?

To the rest:

(hover your mouse over my avatar for a second )

Thing is, it's not funny, it's on TV and it's out of the joke-context. So, bam, he got fucked by his own stupidity.
It being football-related doesn't make it automatically untouchable. German football in itself has a big problem with far right leaning hooligans (don't try to retort with some stupid shit like "they are unpolitical"...), I don't know the intricacies of the dutch fan-scene though.

I don't get what gem you mean?

The thing is IT IS FUNNY. It's made for a specific group of people in the Netherlands.

If some person's wife or a whiney snowflake sees it and then spreads it out of context it's that person's problem. And the fact that we in a gaming forum that is US based hear about this shows how dumb people are. This was not made for Americans. This was probably not made for Germans. Definitely not for the glass generation that shatters everytime someone sneezes. Or for snowflakes that melt when the room temperature differs 0.0001 degree from their savespaces room temperature. This was supposed to be on durch TV and only there. Made for people that know about the rivalry, the past and that are not braindead and that don't confuse making fun of someone with being that someone.

Hell I told my Dad HeilHitler when he started to be tyrannical. Because HE was like Hitler not because I am a Nazi.

And it is funny.

 

[Ascend]

That is self-imposed though. Why get rid of a tradition that is still being celebrated across the entire country by all ethnicities, just because of a tiny group of overly sensitive people?

Spoiler

Afriyie arrived in the Netherlands from Ghana when he was 10.

"They would call me Zwarte Piet, or you are dirty just like Zwarte Piet. You are only good to be Zwarte Piet."

Until then, he thought the Sinterklaas festivities were just about fun and collecting sweets.

"I was a child and not politically aware, but I realized we played this dress up with this character who is dumb, who is silly, who doesn't know much, who needs someone to lead the way, who keeps messing up, who is looking very ugly, and then realising that I am the butt of the joke, I was 12 years old when I realised it.

"So, I was like hold on, this thing that I thought was fun seems to be that I am the star of this play without knowing it, and definitely not the role I want to have. On the bus, people would throw those candies they make for Sinterklaas season, they would throw it at you making monkey sounds."

He tried to engage both students and teachers in a dialogue, but as he puts it, the country just looked away.

Spoiler

Black Pete tradition ‘Dutch racism in full display’

Protesters have rallied against the Dutch blackface tradition, but many still refuse to see how it is deeply offensive.

www.aljazeera.com

Yup. 12 year old are overly sensitive people.

It's typical though... People are too busy defending their tradition, trying to convince people how they themselves are not racist, that they completely forget about the victims. The issue is marginalized and put in the hands of some "extremists over there", focusing completely on the perpetrators that mind you is definitely not themselves. All the while they are completely ignoring the real issues that the true victims go through. No empathy is shown AT ALL for the victims, as has been seen in this thread repetitively. These people are even called overly sensitive as a way to dismiss their real life experiences and to justify looking the other way. Typical covert racism. Actions speak louder than words.

This would basically be like saying;
"We have a holiday against sexism where men that dress up like women represent the saved sexism victims. It does not support nor encourage sexism at all, even though the ones dressed up like women have excess make-up, excessively large fake boobs and butts and all act like idiots. Sexist actions are done by extremists, and those women that experienced this type of discrimination were simply victims of some misogynistic minority. The holiday is completely unrelated to sexism. The ones complaining about the women being idiots are overly sensitive, because many women with large boobs and butts celebrate it too...".

Yeah...

 

[VanEs]

The low dark voice, black curly hair and big red lips are pretty obvious and even if it aint, people feel offended by it and I can understand that.
I have called black people Zwarte Piet when I was kid. Ofcourse its childrens innocence but if that kind of thing happens to you often I can imagine people feeling offended by the image.

People get offended by lots of things. Getting offended and racism are not the same. Are we gonna abolish everything that's potentially offensive to people? I won't. because it's nonsense, it'll never be enough and its degrading to even try.
So you were an asshole as a kid by calling a black kid 'Black Pete 'and now you're compensating? (White) guilt? Maybe that says more about you than it does about Black Pete as a fictional character.

Well it’s apparently not fresh enough.
The tiny minority is growing tho. I think they have a valid reason and got their full right to be heared.

Actually latest polling shows resistance to Black Pete declining. Latest Poll i read had 95% pro Black Pete, 3% against and 2% no opinion. And the Nieuwsuur poll showed a decline.

 

[Psykodad]

Spoiler

Afriyie arrived in the Netherlands from Ghana when he was 10.

"They would call me Zwarte Piet, or you are dirty just like Zwarte Piet. You are only good to be Zwarte Piet."

Until then, he thought the Sinterklaas festivities were just about fun and collecting sweets.

"I was a child and not politically aware, but I realized we played this dress up with this character who is dumb, who is silly, who doesn't know much, who needs someone to lead the way, who keeps messing up, who is looking very ugly, and then realising that I am the butt of the joke, I was 12 years old when I realised it.

"So, I was like hold on, this thing that I thought was fun seems to be that I am the star of this play without knowing it, and definitely not the role I want to have. On the bus, people would throw those candies they make for Sinterklaas season, they would throw it at you making monkey sounds."

He tried to engage both students and teachers in a dialogue, but as he puts it, the country just looked away.

Spoiler

Black Pete tradition ‘Dutch racism in full display’

Protesters have rallied against the Dutch blackface tradition, but many still refuse to see how it is deeply offensive.

www.aljazeera.com

Cool, you can make isolated cases look like the norm. Must be hard to pull off.


Btw, I'm still waiting for that explanation of yours about my cousin.

 

[Psykodad]

I was thinking indeed the last part of your post. Sorry.
Not by individual but by groups. My Syrian neighbour dont celebrate Sinterklaas at home. Thats most likely by religious reasons

Yes sure the schools participate with it. It’s one of our biggest traditions we still follow each year I think? If not, one of the biggest.

Yeah, that was my point.

You know, I'm colored myself, so it's not like I don't understand those against Black Pete.
But there is a difference between feeling discriminated against and actually being discriminated against.

Is Black Pete racist? No.

Is what happened to that footballer at Den Bosch racist? Definitely.

There's a big difference between the two though.

 

[Rien]

So you were an asshole as a kid by calling a black kid 'Black Pete 'and now you're compensating? (White) guilt? Maybe that says more about you than it does about Black Pete as a fictional character.

Wow, check out this bad guy!

Actually latest polling shows resistance to Black Pete declining. Latest Poll i read had 95% pro Black Pete, 3% against and 2% no opinion. And the Nieuwsuur poll showed a decline.

Okay I stand corrected.

 

[Coolwhhip]

This thread would have caused a lock down and a summit on resetera. Glad we have freedom of speech here.

 

[Ascend]

Btw, I'm still waiting for that explanation of yours about my cousin.

Good joke bro. I asked you first where you thought it came from, and you never answered, and now, once again, to dismiss the inconvenient truth of my post, you must yet again divert.

 

[Rien]

Yeah, that was my point.

You know, I'm colored myself, so it's not like I don't understand those against Black Pete.
But there is a difference between feeling discriminated against and actually being discriminated against.

Is Black Pete racist? No.

Is what happened to that footballer at Den Bosch racist? Definitely.

There's a big difference between the two though.

The outcome is the same, that’s what counts in the end. Not where it came from imo.
And these aren’t words. These are publicly national celebrations where we have imagery that have a negative effect on people. How can we stand behind that? I certainly cant. Could in the past, but not anymore.

 

[Psykodad]

Good joke bro. I asked you first where you thought it came from, and you never answered, and now, once again, to dismiss the inconvenient truth of my post, you must yet again divert.

I already told you that what he said had no relation to Sinterklaas, Black Pete or slavery.

You move goalposts and weasle you way out of everything using false claims.

 

[Katsura]

The low dark voice, black curly hair and big red lips are pretty obvious and even if it aint, people feel offended by it and I can understand that.
I have called black people Zwarte Piet when I was kid. Ofcourse its childrens innocence but if that kind of thing happens to you often I can imagine people feeling offended by the image.

None of that explains why it's racist though. Can you actually explain what is racist about it?

 

[Katsura]

Explain me then.



Miserable existence? Lol come on now.

Okay, I take it back. I was indeed in a cynical mood.

I still stand by my Zwarte Piet opinion tho. And that we should get rid of the whole Sinterklaas thing too. If we cant find a way to enjoy a thing what is meant to be for everyone and yearly people have to feel discriminated then what’s the point?
We could come up with a different concept that everyone can stand behind.

The point would be that the people who do enjoy it and always have should not be forced to stop simply because of an oversensitive loud minority. Not everything has to be inclusive to everyone. That would make everything bland as fuck. If you don't like it, don't participate. It's not actually hurting anyone though

 

[Psykodad]

The outcome is the same, that’s what counts in the end. Not where it came from imo.
And these aren’t words. These are publicly national celebrations where we have imagery that have a negative effect on people. How can we stand behind that? I certainly cant. Could in the past, but not anymore.

We're talking about two very tiny minorities that in no way represent the tradition, though.

 

[Ascend]

I already told you that what he said had no relation to Sinterklaas, Black Pete or slavery.

And you think that this reply somehow answered my question? I asked where you think his remarks came from. I did not ask where they did not come from. That's like me asking where you live and you telling me not on Pluto. Useless answer.

 

[Psykodad]

And you think that this reply somehow answered my question? I asked where you think his remarks came from. I did not ask where they did not come from. That's like me asking where you live and you telling me not on Pluto. Useless answer.

He lived in a small village with no colored people and went to school in a town with predominantly white people and hung out with "kakkers".
After he realized how he was starting to act, he changed his tune and he'snow actually living in Amsterdam and has a colored girlfriend from Brazil.

Curious to see how you will spin this in such a way that Sinterklaas causes racism.

 

[Rien]

This thread would have caused a lock down and a summit on resetera. Glad we have freedom of speech here.

Indeed.

None of that explains why it's racist though. Can you actually explain what is racist about it?

I already did. Can you explain me what aint racist about it?

The point would be that the people who do enjoy it and always have should not be forced to stop simply because of an oversensitive loud minority. Not everything has to be inclusive to everyone. That would make everything bland as fuck. If you don't like it, don't participate. It's not actually hurting anyone though

Indeed, its not actually hurting Anyone. Its all fake in the end. So why not change? Kids dont care.
Tell me, what do we loose if we change it? The party is still the same only the decor is adjusted. Some adjustments to songs because their so old that their full of stuff no one says anymore.
Nothing of value is lost of we change it.

Its old folks scary to let go of thing they reminds so well. Understandable, but not a valid reason imo.

We're talking about two very tiny minorities that in no way represent the tradition, though.

With very valid opinions. If we have to wait for the rest to come with change it will be forever.

 

[Psykodad]

With very valid opinions. If we have to wait for the rest to come with change it will be forever.

Yes, but the vast majority doesn't care at the end of the day.