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[Jams775]

"hard drugs are bad because addiction!"

- someone with a six pack likely sitting in their fridge

Hard drugs are bad because they come from crime syndicates that can, if not contained, get so bad they leak into local governments and police forces making it even harder contain. Which causes a lot of death, human trafficking, etc to run rampant. Those same people that are distributing this stuff are more than liking dipping their fingers into other 'markets' too, have aspirations to or collaborate with those who do (like prostitution rings doping up their girls to keep them stuck as slaves). It'd be a lot harder for them to keep their sex slaves doped up when their supply runs dry.

- someone who doesn't have a six pack sitting in their fridge.

 

[Daedardus]

Still if you stop demand...

You have to do both, work at supply and demand side to improve the situation. Judging from some comments in this thread, people aren't always helpful at the demand side either.

Yes, I agree, big pharma must be stopped

That's just bending to argument to make it seem like this should be allowed too. There's a difference between a heavy regulated market that actually saves lifes, even though that market clearly is out to make a profit too, and the hard drug circuit.

Most drugs arent adictive and can be regularly enjoyed you know

We're not talking about standard painkillers here, but saying that stuff like coke, crack, meth, opioids aren't addictive or dangerous is just denying the facts. Read in the news last week that several people died from ordering synthetic opioids online and they overdosed with one tablet since that stuff was thousands of time more powerful than morphine. They use that kind of stuff to immobilize elephants. Never mind the fact the physiological effects of hard drugs on humans are widely understood in scientific studies and they aren't actually nice to you, you know. Alcohol and weed are relatively tame in adverse effects, especially if you use them sparingly.

 

[trembli0s]

Seriously.

In what world is weed equal to PCP, folks?

GAF has some interesting groups in it but the hard drug legalization advocates are definitely the weirdest.

Like what politician is running on actively legalizing methamphetamine or heroin/fentanyl?

 

[Deepwater]

Hard drugs are bad because they come from crime syndicates that can, if not contained, get so bad they leak into local governments and police forces making it even harder contain. Which causes a lot of death, human trafficking, etc to run rampant. Those same people that are distributing this stuff are more than liking dipping their fingers into other 'markets' too, have aspirations to or collaborate with those who do (like prostitution rings doping up their girls to keep them stuck as slaves). It'd be a lot harder for them to keep their sex slaves doped up when their supply runs dry.

- someone who doesn't have a six pack sitting in their fridge.

So punish recreational users because police forces are corruptible? And I'm all for making shit regulated and safe but I believe in regulating for guaranteed human behavior and not against it. People are going to find and take these drugs, point blank. I'm not saying I have all the answers but I believe most people have a bias against all "bad" drugs that you don't get from over the counter because of an intentional socialized stigma.

And listen, if anybody has studies or data related to this, I'll change my tune.

 

[Spaced Harrier]

Because agencies can't be investigating multiple things at once.

Opportunity Cost is a thing.

They cannot investigate infinite things at once.

 

[LordRaptor]

So punish recreational users because police forces are corruptible? And I'm all for making shit regulated and safe but I believe in regulating for guaranteed human behavior and not against it. People are going to find and take these drugs, point blank. I'm not saying I have all the answers but I believe most people have a bias against all "bad" drugs that you don't get from over the counter because of an intentional socialized stigma.

And listen, if anybody has studies or data related to this, I'll change my tune.

more than 90% of all worldwide heroin comes from Afghanistan and the profits from heroin distribution maintain the Talibans power base.

I mean, if you want to side with the Taliban over Big Pharma, go right the fuck ahead.

 

[Deepwater]

more than 90% of all worldwide heroin comes from Afghanistan and the profits from heroin distribution maintain the Talibans power base.

I mean, if you want to side with the Taliban over Big Pharma, go right the fuck ahead.

I'm honestly trying to level with people on the other side of this so I really don't think this comment is necessary

 

[Doc_Drop]

Well this is an eye opening insight into some of GAFs opinions on drugs..

 

[Kthulhu]

Unless what they sell is all home grown, they are funneling money to criminal gangs that kill tens of thousands every year around the world.

You can thank the government for making it almost impossible for home grown drugs to be a thing.

I was very specific by saying "hard" drugs. You must agree that there differences in magnitude between stuff like heroine and smoking weed.
What I ment is that the "War on Drugs" is an very American thing

The war on drugs is not exclusive to America.

 

[samoscratch]

Wowzers...first Alphabay now Hansa, crazy.....

 

[Jams775]

I'm honestly trying to level with people on the other side of this so I really don't think this comment is necessary

Look drug users are going to get caught up in these for sure. But if that's what it takes to take down huge drug rings then so be it. Sure there needs to be healthy ways to actually tackle addiction, but sound like you're more arguing to leave all of this alone and let it fester.

 

[LordRaptor]

I'm honestly trying to level with people on the other side of this so I really don't think this comment is necessary

Well the people in this topic going "Why are you going after heroin wholesale distrubtors and not pedophiles or gun runners?" seem to be under the impression that they're not the same fucking people high enough up the chain.

Taliban militia in Afghanistan have fuck all use for briefcases full of USDollars, but they do have a use for automatic weapons, so they they trade opium for guns.

 

[Sheytan]

People that aren't hurting anyone should be allowed to put whatever they want in their body.

No to mention the war on drugs doesn't stop people from taking them, and hurts minority groups and poor communities.

Tell that to the victims of the Mexican and Latin American drug cartels.

 

[Deepwater]

Look drug users are going to get caught up in these for sure. But if that's what it takes to take down huge drug rings then so be it. Sure there needs to be healthy ways to actually tackle addiction, but sound like you're more arguing to leave all of this alone and let it fester.

except i explicitly said (multiple times I believe) there has to be a way to regulate it for safe distribution while still combating organized violent crime. No I don't think every distributer out there is Walter White but if you're against even considering approaching it in that way I don't understand how you aren't just biased against drugs.

Well the people in this topic going "Why are you going after heroin wholesale distrubtors and not pedophiles or gun runners?" seem to be under the impression that they're not the same fucking people high enough up the chain.

Taliban militia in Afghanistan have fuck all use for briefcases full of USDollars, but they do have a use for automatic weapons, so they they trade opium for guns.

If people were allowed to grow opium poppy domestically maybe there wouldn't be a need to buy blood heroin from Afghanis

 

[BrassDragon]

Opportunity Cost is a thing.

They cannot investigate infinite things at once.

Of course not but I'm a little confused by the notion that darkweb terrorism and trafficking operations cannot be investigated concurrently with these marketplace stings.

Sure they share some expertise and technical resources but we divide this stuff among different cells because they deal with entirely different infrastructure, organization, scale and culture.

The people involved with this can walk and chew gum at the same time and it's not like our priorities are some state secret - it's all publicized and reasoned out to political oversight. Taking your precious weed away is not a Dutch national priority. Dismantling the biggest crime rings operating on our turf definitely is.

 

[MUnited83]

Tell that to the victims of the Mexican and Latin American drug cartels.

The war on drugs only increases the number of victims, it does nothing to save anyone.

 

[Calm Mind]

We need to go darker.

 

[Crayons]

That's just bending to argument to make it seem like this should be allowed too. There's a difference between a heavy regulated market that actually saves lifes, even though that market clearly is out to make a profit too.

You're right, theyre not the same. Big pharma has political influence through lobbying and back room deals and control of the media and hence public opinion, cartels do not

 

[nachum00]

The issue of criminalizing/legalizing hard drugs isn't as black and white as everyone seems to act like it is.

If you legalize you're enabling the user. If you criminalize you're enabling organized crime.
There's no easy answer.

 

[Lonely1]

The war on drugs only increases the number of victims, it does nothing to save anyone.

Still, people funneling resources to the cartels get no sympathy from me. Go hard on them, Dutch police!

If people were allowed to grow opium poppy domestically maybe there wouldn't be a need to buy blood heroin from Afghanis

People don't need to buy opium at all. Go and sniff glue instead.

 

[LordRaptor]

I really don't understand the rationale behind some of the posts in this topic - you do know that Holland is extremely lax on recreational drug use legislature, and also invest heavily in all sorts of remedial programs to assist addicts in their rehabilitation, right?

There isn't any fucking Big Pharma whataboutism, Heroin - and opioids in general - are literally toxic, highly addictive, and even if legalised would still cause societal harm in any society where, you know, people need money to purchase things.

You can help addicition at a user level, but only at the point where someone wants to get help, and by the time they have done so they are already at the point where they have almost destroyed their life.

Go to a fucking rehab clinic or recovery support group and talk to someone who has actually been through withdrawal about how heroin dealers and pharmaceuticals are basically the same and things would be fine if you could just grow opium in your garden, jfc.
I say go to a rehab clinic or recovery support group, because depressingly there are fucking plenty of them and they are easy to find in any city.

 

[collige]

The issue of criminalizing/legalizing hard drugs isn't as black and white as everyone seems to act like it is.

If you legalize you're enabling the user. If you criminalize you're enabling organized crime.
There's no easy answer.

The easy answer is to legalize then use the increased tax revenue to provide health services to those users who do end up with a problem instead of creating a black money and wasting money throwing people in prison.

 

[Shadowhelper]

Relatively speaking, very very few people order internationally from the Netherlands. The absolute vast majority of orders are just domestic. Generally, speaking you don't order from there as mail from there is flagged.

Germany fines people for old darknet violations. But other than that its extremely difficult to prove what is needed without catching someone with drugs on their possession.

This particular darknet had along ago been flagged as being run by potential scammers who don't deal with other scamming vendors, its popularity had plummeted a while ago.

 

[Koren]

The easy answer is to legalize then use the increased tax revenue.

If you look into what happens with tobacco, because of taxes, there's still a huge black market... Beside, I'm not sure the money you would earn would be sufficient to help people that have problems with it.

Also, isn't a bit like saying you should make guns legal, and use tax money to solve problems cause by gun violence? If USA is an example, I'm not sure it's working that well... even if there's a lot of differences between the two.

(I don't say it's not a possible answer, it's just that I don't believe it's an easy one)

 

[LordRaptor]

The easy answer is to legalize then use the increased tax revenue to provide health services to those users who do end up with a problem instead of creating a black money and wasting money throwing people in prison.

Methadone was invented in the 1930s as a synthetic alternative to opioids, and it is extremely cheap to manufacture or purchase and used as part of treatments to wean people off of opioid addictions due to being less harmful, less addictive and having lower cross tolerance factors for longterm usage.

 

[PhantomThief]

Weed high does not = the high from amphetamines

Yeah, thank god.

 

[collige]

Also, isn't a bit like saying you should make guns legal, and use tax money to solve problems cause by gun violence? If USA is an example, I'm not sure it's working that well... even if there's a lot of differences between the two.

There's a couple key differences here. The obvious one is that guns are far more dangerous than drugs, especially relative to their cost and usage. That is to say, it generally takes many, many drug purchases for a drug user to become so addicted that it interferes with their and other people's lives whereas a buying a firearm is not a recurring purchase which implies a less repeatable revenue stream for the government. You could tax ammo, sure, but even that is bought far more sparingly than the general population.

The other aspect to the black market is that unlike most drugs, firearms are currently borderline impossible to manufacture illegally. This means that regulation and enforcement of regulations of the legal drug industry has direct ramifications on the black market. You can't cook up an AR-15 in your kitchen.

 

[LordRaptor]

You can't cook up an AR-15 in your kitchen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zz8mlB1hZ-o

 

[collige]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zz8mlB1hZ-o

That's why I said "currently". Yeah, it's technically possible to 3d print a gun, but no one is going around making a living off selling black market 3d printed weapons.

 

[MUnited83]

Still, people funneling resources to the cartels get no sympathy from me. Go hard on them, Dutch police!



People don't need to buy opium at all. Go and sniff glue instead.

The reason the cartels even exist is because of criminalized drugs though. Going after the recreational users doesn't make much sense and just makes things worse.

The issue of criminalizing/legalizing hard drugs isn't as black and white as everyone seems to act like it is.

If you legalize you're enabling the user. If you criminalize you're enabling organized crime.
There's no easy answer.

I'd say there is a easy answer, the system used in Portugal. Using drugs isn't a crime here, just trafficking it is. Addicted people get offered help and rehabillitation, and the ones that refuse that are at least provided with tools to make sure their habit is done in a safe way to prevent the diseases spreading. It's not a perfect system ( you still can't buy perfectly harmless stuff like weed on stores), but the results are great. Drug use has constantly gone down since this has been implemented, more people take rehabilitation and help, diseases spreading through needle reuse aldo drastically down.

 

[Doc_Drop]

People don't need to buy opium at all. Go and sniff glue instead.

Sniffing glue is really really dangerous, how is that even a logical suggestion

 

[Daedardus]

You're right, theyre not the same. Big pharma has political influence through lobbying and back room deals and control of the media and hence public opinion, cartels do not

I mean sure, but will you hold the same grudge against big pharma if you or a family member ever gets diagnosed with cancer? Or do you think sniffing coke will solve the problem? After all, it's the biased media and scientific reporting that is telling us that certain medicines are life saving and saying that hard drugs are damaging and addictive.

 

[Shadowhelper]

This isn't that meaningful.

The majority of all drugs in the americas and in all of europe including Russia is sold through the darknet. This is a little flick of the ear.

It's so god damned widespread that people get caught all the time simply from shoddy packaging or a mail processing tong completely piercing the package.

When millions of darknet packages are floating around every day, thats going to happen. So what happens? Nothing. If your package somehow gets intercepted in almost any country, 90% of the time the customs agent will toss it or keep it. Otherwise, you get a letter not from the police but from the border agents to dissuade you.

This is not true of every country, obviously, like Australisia or the Asian or Middle Eastern countries. But for America and Britain and pretty much all of western Europe it is. Personal amounts not pounds.

 

[Simply Sami]

This isn't that meaningful.

The majority of all drugs in the americas and in all of europe including Russia is sold through the darknet. This is a little flick of the ear.

It's so god damned widespread that people get caught all the time simply from shoddy packaging or a mail processing tong completely piercing the package.

When millions of darknet packages are floating around every day, thats going to happen. So what happens? Nothing. If your package somehow gets intercepted in almost any country, 90% of the time the customs agent will toss it or keep it. Otherwise, you get a letter not from the police but from the border agents to dissuade you.

This is not true of every country, obviously, like Australisia or the Asian or Middle Eastern countries. But for America and Britain and pretty much all of western Europe it is. Personal amounts not pounds.

And I highly doubt people use their real names when ordering stuff. They surely use a fake name.

 

[pswii60]

Actually there isn't it's just "condoned" but it remains illegal. Especially with the conservatives (although they call themselves liberal HAH!) ruling that place for ages now. They slowly make it worse and worse and ask a coffeeshop owner about it sometimes, especially in the smaller towns where they legalized it fully to supply coffeeshops with legal taxxed pot. The central government cracked down it, in many states in the USA there are better drug laws now than in the Netherlands!

Besides, if you legalize it, it isn't criminal anymore and thus the activity, profit and crimesprees go down. The only issue is: Keeping it away from kids and educating people about the risks. Same thing we already do with alcohol really.

BUt hey if you are in for banning things people enjoy here are a few more addictions for you:
Gambling
Drinking
Smoking
Driving
Diving
Parcours
Gaming
Extreme sports

and so forth. All of these can become an addiction if you allow it. So let's just bann em all! Let's just all sit down in church and praise Jesus. Oh waith Religion too is an addiction to some! .

Darn must be that pesky human brain of ours and all those endorphins, well full frontal lobotomies for everybody! WOOHOO! ^^.

All of those things you listed are a hundred times more dangerous when on hard drugs.