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Dynamic Difficulties (RE4, Max Payne, God Hand, etc.)

Andrew.

Banned
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DynamicDifficulty

Stumbled upon this site after a conversation with a friend of mine that claimed RE4 had implemented a dynamic difficulty. Funny, because after multiple multiple playthroughs it's something that I just didnt pick up on or simply didnt pay attention to.

Playing through RE4 now with this in mind, I just experienced a moment of it. Fighting the village chief I died three times. The first round, I unloaded about 40 rounds of a slightly upgraded Red9 into him. Two deaths later, it took about 25.

Pretty interesting stuff. I had no idea so many games had something like that programmed within. It's like that ol' "Nintendo Fairness" schtick included in various genres of titles. I had no idea it was so many though...

Examples:

- Lego Star Wars II, Indiana Jones, and Batman feature "Adaptive Difficulty" which merely affects the amount of LEGO studs you lose upon death depending on how well you play, which can go up to a very high amount.

- God Hand will adjust the difficulty up a level (1, 2, 3, and Die) if the player lands enough hits on enemies, increasing enemy strength and durability. It will then scale the difficulty back down if they take too many hits. You gain more rewards for defeating more enemies at higher difficulty levels. The game has "normal" difficulty settings, as well - the difficulty level never rises above 2 in Easy Mode, and Hard Mode has you always on Level Die.

- The Simpsons Arcade Game, the amount of enemies on screen depends on how many people are playing. In the boss fight against Smithers, if there are more than 2 players he won't throw any bombs you can throw back.

- Snatcher had a shooting range which could be accessed for fun. If you get consistently high scores on the shooting range, the game amps up the challenge of the plot relevant shooting set-pieces. It's advised that you do intentionally terrible on the shooting range, or finishing the game may require inhuman reflexes.

- The Need for Speed Underground series utilizes dynamic difficulty in two ways: first, the more you tune your car, the faster the other cars will be; second, the "Catch Up" feature causes competing cars to go faster as you pass them, and slower as they pass you.

In theory, the latter makes the game more balanced; in practice, it's nothing but Fake Difficulty. With regards to the former, one of the recommended strategies if you're having difficulty is to remove all your upgrades, as the lower speed makes it much easier for you to react to obstacles and avoid mistakes. It's like playing in slow-mo.

- Left 4 Dead features a "director AI" that spawns Infected based on how easily the players made it past the previous encounter. If the skirmish ends with the players healthy and having used few ammunition, the director sends in a horde.

If the players are dying and low on ammo, the director only sends in a few. If you are playing on Expert and are doing poorly, it says "why aren't you dead yet?" and redoubles its efforts.

- EVE Online features wormholes, where the amount of enemies depends on the number and size of the player ships. Don't ever try to bring a carrier (a capital ship) into the fight, however. Each time you do, there is an extra spawn of a few sleeper battleships. Unless you are doing this specifically to farm them, this is tantamount to suicide.

- Ratchet & Clank has a leveling system, and experience points are kept when you die. If you die a lot, you will end up getting stronger than if you played through the game without dying or revisiting old areas. In addition, dying against a single obstacle too many times will either disable it or have the checkpoint moved.

- The Homeworld series scales enemy fleets to match yours, to a certain extent. In the first game, it's easy to have an overwhelmingly powerful fleet anyway by abusing the Cap system by capturing enemy ships.

- In Homeworld 2, capturing ships is no longer practical and enemy fleets scale so heavily in comparison to yours that building more ships makes the game harder, not easier. Amusingly, a well-known exploit is to retire your fleet at the end of a mission — the next one will be staggeringly easy as you can rebuild your fleet in a few scant minutes

- SaGa Frontier: Improving your party's effectiveness via Stat Grinding increases the difficulty of enemy encounters.

- The Battle Tower in Pokémon becomes harder the better you are. However, rather than just increasing AI skill, it also stacks the opponent's teams against you and manipulates the RNG.

- Resident Evil 4, playing well will increase the amount of spawned enemies and improve their AI; conversely, playing poorly and dying often reduces the number of foes and disables most of their AI. Ammo and health item rarity is also affected by dying.

- Max Payne claimed to do this. The effect was pretty noticeable on the console versions, but the PC version seemed to be permanently stuck on "as hard as possible". Bear in mind, it had this in addition to three difficulty modes.

- Kid Icarus: Uprising lowers the difficulty every time you die, unless it's already at 2.0 or lower. The hearts invested in the difficulty increase are lost however, and weapons found in the level correspond in power to the difficulty you end on. It doesn't scale up during a level if you do well, but the recommended difficulty for the next level corresponds to how well you did last level.

More on the site page.
 

Ryaaan14

Banned
I have never been a fan of dynamic difficulty in games because I feel like it's a constant rubberband effect of being too easy then too difficult.
 

kick51

Banned
Zanac for NES-
220px-ZanacBoxArt.jpg



and Zanac x Zanac for PS1


Really cool feature for a NES game and shmups in general. It gets stupid difficult but it also gives you some broken weapons. or, broken until the game kicks your ass.



God Hand's difficulty system is something legendary.

as someone who gets to level 3 practically for free with no taunts, then gets decimated quickly soon after unless I use scrub tactics....I have to say it's quite beautiful.
 

Alienous

Member
Resident Evil 4 done that? Genius.

This kind of subtle experience tailoring needs to be in more games. Needs to be subtle, like RE4, though.
 

sn00zer

Member
Ratchet and Clank Future had a great dynamic difficulty....was pretty difficult the whole way through from all the dodging and stuff I was doing early on
 

Lafazar

Member
The difficulty scaling system in Resident Evil 4 is very well balanced if you are playing with a controller. The genius is that you barely notice it and are constantly challenged appropriate to your skills.

The Wii version however allows you to easily reach the maximum difficulty (mostly seen by the number of enemies) and remain there thanks to the precise and fast aiming.

Edit: It shows particularly well on the truck ride:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJJX1nJNwN8&t=12m
 
I really hate dynamic difficulties. I find really hard to resist to the temptation of voluntarily playing bad to get the difficulty as low as possible. It ruins the experience for me
 

Andrew.

Banned
Sounds more of a personal playing issue. If you have to fight yourself to not suck on purpose to make the game easier for you...I dunno man, have fun I guess.

I dont see the point in that unless you're a trophy/cheev whore and pining for a useless OCD score.
 

Nymphae

Banned
I enjoy the implementation in the Tetris: The Grandmaster series. I forget the exact nature of the rules, but the gravity will change faster depending on how well the player is doing.
 

BigDug13

Member
infamous actually stopped my game part way in to tell me I'm good enough to play the game on hard and asked if I wanted to do that.

That's not really dynamic though. It just determined how good I was doing I guess.
 

MadSexual

Member
I just finished Max Payne 3 on PC the other day, medium difficulty. As the list claims, I saw no change in AI or health, but noticed that dying multiple times will gift you an extra bottle of pills when you restart. It's a life saver when you enter a long encounter with zero health backing you up.
 

Andrew.

Banned
infamous actually stopped my game part way in to tell me I'm good enough to play the game on hard and asked if I wanted to do that.

That's not really dynamic though. It just determined how good I was doing I guess.

I see what you're saying. Gunslinger does the same thing if you start a Normal game on NG+. Get through the first chapter with no hitches and it gives you that "Are you sure you dont want to play at a higher difficulty level?" message.
 
Excellent thread.

I was just considering making one praising God Hand's difficulty system.

Dynamic difficulty is a great solution to the problem of difficulty settings in modern games.

They avoid situations where the default or "Normal" is too easy so as to be foolproof for modern gamers, but people are hesitant to choose "hard" because they assume it will actually be hard, and not simply "not boring". Or situations where Normal is actually challenging, and some people are too prideful to choose Easy or assume they don't have to. Or situations where the game is manageable on Normal/Hard up to a brick wall, and you would have to replay the game to switch difficulties.

The only flaw in God Hand's difficulty system is the fact that there is still a standard Easy/Normal/Hard selection in addition to the level meter.

All games should have dynamic difficulty.

infamous actually stopped my game part way in to tell me I'm good enough to play the game on hard and asked if I wanted to do that.

That's not really dynamic though. It just determined how good I was doing I guess.

215522719_JLCCq-L-2.jpg
 

Alfredo

Member
I think Netherrealm's latest games have this for single player modes. I think it's most noticeable in Mortal Kombat 9's last boss, as he'll taunt more often the more you die, giving you more opportunities to attack him.... and most people will die A LOT.

It's kind of annoying, because if you want to get better at the game, having the AI become dumber as you lose doesn't really help you in the long run.
 

tehPete

Banned
Final Fantasy VIII had enemies that leveled up based on your character level, which I initially thought was pretty cool but changed my mind later on when I made it to Ultimecia while only doing 100-200 physical per hit and found that she was impossible - at least I thought so - with the setup that had managed to get me to her with almost no difficulties.

Dynamic difficulty is great, if perfectly balanced.
 

Anteater

Member
I really hate dynamic difficulties. I find really hard to resist to the temptation of voluntarily playing bad to get the difficulty as low as possible. It ruins the experience for me

I would say you earned it if you play bad purposely to get a mode that plays bad for your skill level :eek:
 
I think Netherrealm's latest games have this for single player modes. I think it's most noticeable in Mortal Kombat 9's last boss, as he'll taunt more often the more you die, giving you more opportunities to attack him.... and most people will die A LOT.

It's kind of annoying, because if you want to get better at the game, having the AI become dumber as you lose doesn't really help you in the long run.

If you want to become better at a fighting game, playing the AI won't help you in the long run.
 

Squire

Banned
RE4 also keeps track of your currently favored weaponry and drops the ammo count for it, while increasing the ammo drops for something else you have to get you to use that instead.

I didn't know about any of this until last month. The only thing I'd heard of of this sort was the rubber-banding AI in Mario Kart. It's all very cool.
 

ced

Member
- Resident Evil 4, playing well will increase the amount of spawned enemies and improve their AI; conversely, playing poorly and dying often reduces the number of foes and disables most of their AI. Ammo and health item rarity is also affected by dying.

I had no idea about this, maybe that's why the game's difficulty felt nearly perfect.
 
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DynamicDifficulty

Pretty interesting stuff. I had no idea so many games had something like that programmed within. It's like that ol' "Nintendo Fairness" schtick included in various genres of titles. I had no idea it was so many though...

-

You are 20 years lttp. Still, the only game That stood out to me with dynamic difficulty was RE4. At launch on gamecube I had trouble with the mechanics initially and noticed exactly as you describe, your damage output is higher and enemy health is lowered. Though I think it has it's ceiling limits.
 
I do like games that dynamically adjust... but I'm not a fan of "Street Fighter" syndrome. We all know it... you lose to M. Bison so many times the game gives you a pity win and it takes all the fun out of the fight.

Games like Half Life 2 did it well... dropping more health as you got closer to death (this made the game easier, but kept the dramatic tension of "OMG I'M GONNA DIE SOON!"

Valve games since have done likewise (you're more likely to find health in Left 4 Dead series because of the AI director. Likewise, the AI director gives you bonuses if you share health packs/pills with your team mates).

(edit) That said... fuck the tropes website... It tries way too hard to make everything a god damn trope... to the point where they literally have a dozen entries that are the exact same thing except slightly tailored for individual movies/games/etc.
 
- Kid Icarus: Uprising lowers the difficulty every time you die, unless it's already at 2.0 or lower. The hearts invested in the difficulty increase are lost however, and weapons found in the level correspond in power to the difficulty you end on. It doesn't scale up during a level if you do well, but the recommended difficulty for the next level corresponds to how well you did last level.

More on the site page.

This risk vs. reward system is probably my favourite difficulty system of them all.

Incredible replay value, addictive like crack.

Kid Icarus was amazing.
 

Andrew.

Banned
Don't the newer Mario games do this during boss battles if you die a certain amount of times? It's like the AI gets significantly lowered or somethin..
 
I just finished Max Payne 3 on PC the other day, medium difficulty. As the list claims, I saw no change in AI or health, but noticed that dying multiple times will gift you an extra bottle of pills when you restart. It's a life saver when you enter a long encounter with zero health backing you up.

Yep, I played it on hard and for the most part did fine... until that burning rooftop fight. I died so much it eventually gave me 2 extra pill bottles which got me through. Thank you, person who implemented that system.
 

Anteater

Member
God Hand's difficulty system is something legendary.

Yeah normal mode was a lot of fun and thrilling because of it, it's why it's encouraged to play normal instead of easy, since they cap you at lvl2 on easy mode, the dynamic difficulty is part of what makes the game fun.
 
Well, God Hand is the best game ever made in my book (most challenging and fun simultaneously--it is literally video game "zen", or "flow"). So, I guess I appreciate adaptive difficulty. Like someone else said, it makes you feel like a boss.
 

Miker

Member
Honestly, as much as I love God Hand, I think it's really meant to be played on normal. On hard, when locked to Level Die, it's not any more enjoyable. Enemies just get a shitton of health, and the encounter design doesn't really scale well to it. It's still fun because it's God Hand and it's a true test of skill, which is good, but I rank it as one of the worse implementations of a higher difficulty in a character action game.
 
Add me to the list of people that didn't realize RE4 had dynamic difficulty. I mean, I suppose I might have subtly suspected it in those situations where I'd died several times and then started getting some really lucky drops in boxes.

EDIT: And I just saw it mentioned that drops were not affected. Hahahaha. I guess I really didn't know. I should mention I've beaten RE4 8+ times on various platforms.
 

Anteater

Member
Honestly, as much as I love God Hand, I think it's really meant to be played on normal. On hard, when locked to Level Die, it's not any more enjoyable. Enemies just get a shitton of health, and the encounter design doesn't really scale well to it. It's still fun because it's God Hand and it's a true test of skill, which is good, but I rank it as one of the worse implementations of a higher difficulty in a character action game.

hard was still fun and I didn't notice enemies having more health, you do get hit by a lot though and some bosses are kind of not very well balanced, also with some additional enemy spawns, I ended up having to cheese through some of them with roulette and god hand power, but yeah I'd rather play on normal, it was difficult enough since you will be on level die anyway from doing good.
 
I didn't notice the RE4 difficulty either, must just be that perfect, haha.

God Hand though, as amazing as the game is, isn't really balanced very well at the higher part of the difficulty spectrum. It's done very well from lv 1-3, but if you reach lv Die very consistently then you get mutilated way too quickly before the difficulty drops again. So the next time you see a lower difficulty will most likely be after you hit the continue screen. At that point, you might as well just play hard and keep it locked on lv Die.

Although maybe I'm a sucker for punishment cause I keep playing the game on hard.
 

BadWolf

Member
Honestly, as much as I love God Hand, I think it's really meant to be played on normal. On hard, when locked to Level Die, it's not any more enjoyable. Enemies just get a shitton of health, and the encounter design doesn't really scale well to it. It's still fun because it's God Hand and it's a true test of skill, which is good, but I rank it as one of the worse implementations of a higher difficulty in a character action game.

Agreed.

I usually tackle the harder and hardest difficulties in character action games (Dante Must Die, Infinite Climax, Revengeance etc.) but didn't bother in God Hand.

Reaching the harder levels and then maintaining them as long as I could was a huge part of the fun.
 

Miker

Member
hard was still fun and I didn't notice enemies having more health, you do get hit by a lot though and some bosses are kind of not very well balanced, also with some additional enemy spawns, I ended up having to cheese through some of them with roulette and god hand power, but yeah I'd rather play on normal, it was difficult enough since you will be on level die anyway from doing good.

You didn't notice enemies having more health? You must be counter-hitting them (high-pitched ping sound) really often, because if you don't, they take ages to die relative to level 3 and below. It's my main complaint with hard, really; I'm okay with the amount of damage Gene takes.

EDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoxrSmSv4WE

Fast forward to some random time halfway through or so to see how long it takes to kill anything. And this is for the pyramid fight, which is wave after wave after wave - this is why I said hard doesn't scale well with encounters.
 
I always hated F-Zero on SNES and how the CPUs would stick to your ass no matter how well you performed. Even in Mario Kart and all its rubberbanding, you would often be able to build up a decent comfortable distance between the CPUs and you. In F-Zero though, just one tiny mistake on the last lap of an otherwise perfect run and they would always be right there ready to pass you. It just didn't matter. Fuck this shit!
 

kick51

Banned
THIS

GOnna be honest.

Super Ghouls and Ghost is hard as balls (PSP remake)

I still havent beat it NOR the original.


Ultimate GnG for PSP? That's not just hard or dynamically difficult. it's random as fuck.




wow, saved for later

Been wondering how TVT really didn't take off ever, despite seeming super interesting a few years ago.
 

Mupod

Member
I really dislike 'hidden' dynamic difficulty. I remember having a lot of trouble in some room in RE4, and I'd died a bunch of times on it but I was making progress.

Then suddenly it straight up removes an enemy, I think it was a Garrador actually. I just reset and reloaded my save. I don't want your pity, video game.

God Hand and Kid Icarus are perfect examples of dynamic difficulty, because you get better rewards for playing better on harder levels.
 

Andrew.

Banned
I really dislike 'hidden' dynamic difficulty. I remember having a lot of trouble in some room in RE4, and I'd died a bunch of times on it but I was making progress.

Then suddenly it straight up removes an enemy, I think it was a Garrador actually. I just reset and reloaded my save. I don't want your pity, video game.

Weird you cant remember that room. There were only a few Garrador fights. Even being acclimated to the dynamics of the game, I have never remembered it ever actually removing a major enemy like that no matter how much you suck.
 

Skittles

Member
soldner-x2's dynamic difficulty is beautiful. It becomes more and more bullet hellish the better you play, also increases the damage by bullets i think
 

Ran Echelon

Neo Member
- Snatcher had a shooting range which could be accessed for fun. If you get consistently high scores on the shooting range, the game amps up the challenge of the plot relevant shooting set-pieces. It's advised that you do intentionally terrible on the shooting range, or finishing the game may require inhuman reflexes.

I didn't find out about this until after I finished Snatcher.
So of course I did great in the shooting range...that last battle was crazy.
 

Anteater

Member
You didn't notice enemies having more health? You must be counter-hitting them (high-pitched ping sound) really often, because if you don't, they take ages to die relative to level 3 and below. It's my main complaint with hard, really; I'm okay with the amount of damage Gene takes.

EDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoxrSmSv4WE

Fast forward to some random time halfway through or so to see how long it takes to kill anything. And this is for the pyramid fight, which is wave after wave after wave - this is why I said hard doesn't scale well with encounters.

Nope can't remember :D Only remember having trouble with the ladies and their shitty axe and jump grabs!
 

Dahbomb

Member
Didn't know RE4 had dynamic difficulty. I have played the game so many times.


Godhand though is the quintessential dynamic difficulty game.
 
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