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[subversus]

I'm kind of surprised the programmer was even allowed to be that open about the internal situation there.

I guess they got sick of reading the same complaints over and over again.

 

[subversus]

wow... I didn't know people hated realism in bf so much. Maybe if they spent more time designing better levels and mechanics they wouldn't need to fall back on a stupid smoke screen to balance out an entire class.

better levels to balance out a sniper = corridor shooter with short corridors.
have fun in these environments.

 

[Emitan]

You mean, will they let you cheat in multiplayer?

Cheating? When I play BC2 (which is not often) I have to turn all the settings down just so I can actually see. There's so much bloom and glare and dust everywhere that I can't see shit.

 

[subversus]

There's so much bloom and glare and dust everywhere that I can't see shit.

That's the point!!

BFBC is not a competitive game.

 

[PnCIa]

it's going to be very difficult for people to mod the game. Because of the nature of the set up of levels, the destruction, and all those things, it's quite tricky, so we think it's going to be too big of a challenge for people to make a mod."

They really think we´re dumb, right. I mean, there is no other logical explanation for this. They could´ve said "we don´t want to invest the time to make our toolset run on all machines" or "we want to sell DLC". But this?

 

[subversus]

They really think we´re dumb, right. I mean, there is no other logical explanation for this. They could´ve said "we don´t want to invest the time to make our toolset run on all machines" or "we want to sell DLC". But this?

read the logical explanation on the previous page.

 

[Stallion Free]

read the logical explanation on the previous page.

They supposedly straightened all that out with the latest revision of Frostbite.

 

[les papillons sexuels]

That's the point!!

BFBC is not a competitive game.

then why bother having multiplayer? You're completely losing me here man.

Even CS allowed you tweak settings, like centering player names, removing dynamic crosshairs, even allowing players to select which level of smoke they want displayed. If a competative game can get away with doing it, and people not have massive fits over it, why can't I expect the same from dice? Give me a command console, let me change settings and personalize MY game the way I want.

 

[Marco1]

I am sure alot of modders are taking that comment as an insult.
Incredible considering some mods are better than the DLC.
Look at oblivion and new vegas.
Also check what the arma community has done for that game.
No mod tools because we want to sell DLC and a yearly expansion that you will all have to pay for.
Still buying BF3 but saddened that this is happening although I can probably see myself moving onto something else quickly instead of the lifespan BF2 had.

 

[JWong]

then why bother having multiplayer? You're completely losing me here man.

Even CS allowed you tweak settings, like centering player names, removing dynamic crosshairs, even allowing players to select which level of smoke they want displayed. If a competative game can get away with doing it, and people not have massive fits over it, why can't I expect the same from dice? Give me a command console, let me change settings and personalize MY game the way I want.

Oh, I want wall visibility off and a radar that show where all my enemies are.

Also, an auto-win button.

 

[PnCIa]

read the logical explanation on the previous page.

They supposedly straightened all that out with the latest revision of Frostbite.

Now, i don´t know if this true and to what extend they changed things. If the same middleware deals are still in place, well i can understand this explanation. Regarding the rest, 20 years ago people had to work a lot harder to implement stuff into games, everything was completely new back then. (think about the days of Doom and Quake)

 

[les papillons sexuels]

read the logical explanation on the previous page.

After reading that I've lost respect and faith in their game(s). If they can't put in the time and effort to create developer tools which allow their own teams the most out of their own technology, then it makes complete sense that they wouldn't bother offering their faithful community anything too.

Maybe this is something dice needs to re-evaluate, making dev tools and a pipeline that's as effecient as possible will save you literally man-years in developing a game, the same man-years spent developing the tools...

Oh, I want wall visibility off and a radar that show where all my enemies are.

Also, an auto-win button.

Now now, no need to be cynical about it. Just because I like games where the function of a class isn't hampered by a cheap solution, doesn't mean I want "hacks". I just want developers thinking about the games their making instead of realizing at the last minute that "opps this class is functioning better then we'd hope, lets throw in some graphical effect to blind them from doing their job". Many games like team fortress 2 (prior to all the needless updates) and halo offer players the role of sniping without limiting the players vision, they're balanced around how the class is supposed to play. As a sniper you sacrifice surrounding awareness, close combat and support to do one job and one job only. If these drawbacks to the sniper class aren't enough, then you need to look at level layout and game mechanics, not resort to placing a bunch of effects that cause the sniping metagame to be nigh impossible.

Maybe dice should just remove the sniper class if they're going to use a 10 second fix instead of putting the effort to design the class properly.

 

[Emitan]

Oh, I want wall visibility off and a radar that show where all my enemies are.

Also, an auto-win button.

Read this before attempting an argument again.

 

[Stallion Free]

Now, i don´t know if this true and to what extend they changed things. If the same middleware deals are still in place, well i can understand this explanation. Regarding the rest, 20 years ago people had to work a lot harder to implement stuff into games, everything was completely new back then. (think about the days of Doom and Quake)

If they still haven't written their own tools which I vaguely recall them saying they did, that would mean every EA title using the engine would have to pay the licensing fees. EA has said they are gonna make heavy use of it so it seems counter-intuitive at that point.

 

[Igo]

Oh, I want wall visibility off and a radar that show where all my enemies are.

You already have that with spotting. That's how I used it in the BC2 beta.

 

[JWong]

Now now, no need to be cynical about it. Just because I like games where the function of a class isn't hampered by a cheap solution, doesn't mean I want "hacks". I just want developers thinking about the games their making instead of realizing at the last minute that "opps this class is functioning better then we'd hope, lets throw in some graphical effect to blind them from doing their job". Many games like team fortress 2 (prior to all the needless updates) and halo offer players the role of sniping without limiting the players vision, they're balanced.

Maybe dice should just remove the sniper class if they're going to use a 10 second fix instead of putting the effort to design the class properly.

The two games you listed aren't pushing for realism and feature unrealistic ways to balance the game.

You want a visibility reducing element that occurs in the real world that real snipers will have to deal with to be gone from a game attempting to produce a realistic fps. Makes no sense.

Anyone who attempts to "mod" this part of the game for you is essentially a cheat.

You already have that with spotting. That's how I used it in the BC2 beta.

Someone else has to spot the enemy before it shows up for anyone else.

 

[Takamura-San]

Did BC2 have any mod support?

if so... What has come from it?

 

[les papillons sexuels]

The two games you listed aren't pushing for realism and feature unrealistic ways to balance the game.

You want a visibility reducing element that occurs in the real world that real snipers will have to deal with to be gone from a game attempting to produce a realistic fps. Makes no sense.

Anyone who attempts to "mod" this part of the game for you is essentially a cheat.

Someone else has to spot the enemy before it shows up for anyone else.

thanks for realizing that it's a game, and that it should be balanced as such. Maybe they should make it so that in BF3 you die you die, no respawning, you need to buy a new copy of the game, that'd make it more realistic right?

Want to see realism, go look at pictures of iraq and russia, you'll be surprised at how little smoke and dust and snow are constantly floating around in the sky 24/7. How they portray it in BC2 is completely unrealistic. But thanks for ignoring that fact.

 

[Emitan]

Did BC2 have any mod support?

if so... What has come from it?

It didn't have mod support. It was a console port.

 

[Dead Man]

If your worth as a studio can't be maintained unless you hold back mod tools, your studio sucks.

Mod tools help games way, way more than they hurt them. I can bet you Valve wouldn't be where they are today without Counter-Strike.

I bet if Ubisoft released mod tools for Far Cry 2, that game would have had a long and prosperous tail on the PC because modders could have made it amazing.

So much potential, wasted. Modded FC2 would have been glorious.

 

[D3adend]

and here it is:



I guess no questions should be left after this.

Cryengine uses proprietory stuff, Epic are pushing their engine and are obscenely rich.

I FUCKING CALLED IT!
And so many whiners on here said it was because DICE are assholes.
It's due to the sheer fucking wall of work that would be required and the large sum of money to gamble that someone else will make a mod that somehow gets people to buy a game.

Just like I said.

Well, at least we know the leading contender for post of the month.

But I was right, so now what?

Sigh.

Noone cares what DICE wants people to behave like, mod support was a huge selling point for the original bf1942 for the fans (the game kept selling steadily for years because of them and the fans were HAPPY).

As gamers WE care that we can come back to our games for years and keep enjoying them with fresh new fan made content.
If you want to be a complacent corporate apologist then go do it somewhere else than in a thread about pc modding.

Bloody bad company babies who were born yesterday give me a headache.

If a product isn't giving me what I expect from it, then I will move to one that does, thats how it works outside of 'every developer is entitled to riches for trying' bizarro world.
There were dozens of shooters on pc 10 years ago, and the studios and franchises that survived did so because they offered something more and better than what the competition did/could.
Once they stop doing that, the goodwill and appreciation from the fans will stop too and more will take their money elsewhere.

People love mods, what is there not to understand?

Sigh,
You obviously weren't playing BF1942 when it came out or you would know that it didn't have mod tools and someone had to hack together mod tools, so mods were not a selling point. I was playing it then, I played Wake Island MP demo so much that parts of the HUD started burning into my old monitor. So don't you tell me what the game used to be or call me a BC Baby.

Explain then how Call of Duty sells more every year then. Because it sure as fuck hasn't been on modding and giving "fans" what they want.. Oh wait, it is what they want.

 

[subversus]

They supposedly straightened all that out with the latest revision of Frostbite.

nope. They haven't done it, they still use a lot of licensed stuff because they need "man-years" to replace all of it and as this article was posted this winter no years has passed since then. Also they were talking about improving pipeline and iteration times and that's only one issue covered in this article. Throughout this spring they were cautiously talking about possibility of implementing some sort of constructor, not actual mod tools, but it seems that the decision was negative due to (my guess) deadline and limited nature of tools which was making them useless in the end.

With all that said it's clear that DICE themselves don't give a shit about mod tools thinking about them as of a thing of the past. They haven't released mod tools for Mirror's Edge and it could be very easy to do (unless they had to licence Beast for it) since a lot of UE games like Gears of War and Killing Floor had mod tools on release date. repi was saying a lot of times on twitter that mod tools became so complicated that not a lot of people except those who have dev ambitions try their hand at them so releasing mod tools is useless.


Still Carmack was saying the same things about mod tools and he was also talking about impossibility of implementing Rage mod tools. And so what? Rage ships with a level editor. That's a clear message that if you want it you'll do it. DICE don't want to develop mod tools and that's the end of story.

then why bother having multiplayer? You're completely losing me here man.

Even CS allowed you tweak settings, like centering player names, removing dynamic crosshairs, even allowing players to select which level of smoke they want displayed. If a competative game can get away with doing it, and people not have massive fits over it, why can't I expect the same from dice? Give me a command console, let me change settings and personalize MY game the way I want.

hahahahahaha.

CS is a banner of competitive gaming. Bad Company is "I shoot you in the face and watch cool explosions" game. That's what I like about it. It's COD with vehicles and destruction. I personally don't want anything else from it.

 

[Salazar]

I FUCKING CALLED IT!
And so many whiners on here said it was because DICE are assholes.

They are assholes for describing a modding community handily capable of negotiating their technology as insufficiently intelligent, skilled, determined, whatever.

The douchebag PR was what stuck out for me.

 

[subversus]

They are assholes for describing a modding community handily capable of negotiating their technology as insufficiently intelligent, skilled, determined, whatever.

The douchebag PR was what stuck out for me.

yes, PR was stupid because mod community proved many times that they can wonderful, very complicated things.

See Elder Scrolls total conversions, Crysis Back to the Future car, icehancer mod for GTAIV, a lot of cool UDK stuff and so on and so on.

What the hell, Battlefield 2 was born from Desert Combat mod, so they can fuck off.

 

[Alexios]

I don't see how those details in the last page are an explanation at all (especially when he seems to be talking about BC2 and not BF3 - people's focus is BF3 and the new engine now, surely they'll be using it for some time and modders want to use it also and players want to see what modders can do with it). It just pulls the "not user friendly" card all over again. It doesn't matter. It's not their problem. Nobody demanded they make a super polished super simple editor like say, Trackmania's. People just want access so they can mod the game to their liking from little things like pro mods or new game modes and other primarily gameplay tweaks to bigger things like partial or total conversions (with their own art and content which sounds like the least user friendly part) if any find enough dedication for that. Which at least some would, likely with amazing results.

But I was right, so now what?

Uh, you weren't. Mods have in fact been important and awesome for many games in the 7 years you claim they haven't (from small indie titles like Torchlight and Minecraft to bigger titles like Oblivion and Fallout, if you really need examples, though others already mentioned some), and DICE has in the past provided mod tools despite your "never" claim, so your statements were factually wrong and absurdely ignorant. There's no way to translate this into "I was right" no matter how delusional you may be, I'm sorry.

 

[Stallion Free]

Dice are assholes for real, but EA is just as big here now because they are clearly cracking that Dice whip and putting a severe amount of pressure on them if they are continuing to use that piece of shit setup and don't have time to craft their own tools. I mean goddamn. The setup they have running sounds like it wastes an incredible amount of time yet they are given less than two years to between games at this point.

 

[subversus]

Dice are assholes for real, but EA is just as big here now because they are clearly cracking that Dice whip and putting a severe amount of pressure on them if they are continuing to use that piece of shit setup and don't have time to craft their own tools. I mean goddamn. The setup they have running sounds like it wastes an incredible amount of time yet they are given less than two years to between games at this point.

the setup works well in their studio from what I heard on the twitter but it needs a very powerful environment to work like servers and so on.

id have huge servers processing their megatextures on idtech5. I think it's the same environment here.

 

[Stallion Free]

the setup works well in their studio from what I heard on the twitter but it needs a very powerful environment to work like servers and so on.

id have huge servers processing their megatextures on idtech5. I think it's the same environment here.

I can't imagine it being even close to as efficient as having built their own tools/pipeline.

It's obvious that they are put into a position with EA where they just have to deal with it and do their best to work around the issues.

 

[subversus]

I can't imagine it being even close to as efficient as having built their own tools/pipeline.

It's obvious that they are put into a position with EA where they just have to deal with it and do their best to work around the issues.

that's their tools/pipeline. If they're using Havok for physics this doesn't mean that they can't built their own tools for working with it.

anyway we're don't know how they work since we're not DICE, so we're just guessing. The cold fact is that there will be no mod tools.

 

[Stallion Free]

If they're using Havok for physics this doesn't mean that they can't built their own tools for working with it.

That is exactly what Valve did and they have an SDK.

I think the other cold fact here is that Dice and EA are a bunch of douchebags.

 

[subversus]

I think the other cold fact here is that Dice and EA are a bunch of douchebags.

your hate for DICE is irrational like it's almost personal, so I don't think we can discuss them sensibly. Whatever they do no matter the reasoning they're assholes for you. What else to discuss here?

 

[MrBelmontvedere]

if the game is any good folks will just make their own mod tools.

given the game is only like 30 seconds long though I doubt it...

 

[subversus]

if the game is any good folks will just make their own mod tools.

given the game is only like 30 seconds long though I doubt it...

wat

 

[Nostalgia~4ever]

your hate for DICE is irrational like it's almost personal, so I don't think we can discuss them sensibly. Whatever they do no matter the reasoning they're assholes for you. What else to discuss here?

he has blasted DICE in every thread possible, I heard it is because that demize99 guy or whatever on twitter. Still stupid getting fed up with one guy and let the anger go out on the whole company.

One has also remember that DICE is controlled by EA now. It is not like they can make their own decisions.

 

[Sol..]

You know what sucks. I've been looking for a good modern engine to do some modding but it seems like it's a dying thing these days. None of the PC games i got have legit modding tools except the Valve stuff.

 

[Alexios]

You know what sucks. I've been looking for a good modern engine to do some modding but it seems like it's a dying thing these days. None of the PC games i got have legit modding tools except the Valve stuff.

Psst, Crytek just released mod tools for Crysis 2. Some UE3 games have them too, and there's always UDK & Unity's free stuff.

Maybe all that isn't as advanced as BF3's engine, but it's certainly above Valve's stuff in many ways (maybe below in some others).

 

[Menelaus]

That is exactly what Valve did and they have an SDK.

The Source engine is shit and isn't doing 10% of what FB 2.0 does.

 

[1-D_FTW]

You know what sucks. I've been looking for a good modern engine to do some modding but it seems like it's a dying thing these days. None of the PC games i got have legit modding tools except the Valve stuff.

It'll be interesting to see just how ambitious ShooterMania gets.

 

[Stallion Free]

The Source engine is shit and isn't doing 10% of what FB 2.0 does.

I'm sorry, but how does that make my point any less valid?

 

[Feature]

wow... I didn't know people hated realism in bf so much. Maybe if they spent more time designing better levels and mechanics they wouldn't need to fall back on a stupid smoke screen to balance out an entire class.

In real life you can remove the snow/rain/smoke/dust from the atmosphere?

 

[MrBelmontvedere]

wat

obvious hyperbole. for "30 minutes" read "extremely short"

 

[Dead Man]

You know what sucks. I've been looking for a good modern engine to do some modding but it seems like it's a dying thing these days. None of the PC games i got have legit modding tools except the Valve stuff.

Bethesda may make some iffy games, but the GECK is pretty cool, lots of people are doing great stuff with the FO games.

 

[Alexios]

obvious hyperbole. for "30 minutes" read "extremely short"

Still silly to mention for a multiplayer focused franchise that only got popular because of it and before its sub series (BC) didn't even offer single player outside training bots.

PS: you said seconds, not minutes.

 

[subversus]

he has blasted DICE in every thread possible, I heard it is because that demize99 guy or whatever on twitter. Still stupid getting fed up with one guy and let the anger go out on the whole company.

demize99 sounds like a douche sometimes, but that's because of the internet. Would you get angry if somebody in real life said that Killzone 2 sucks? But people on the internet were out for his blood.

 

[Deadbeat]

Crysis Back to the Future car

Seriously, this mod doesnt get enough love. Its amazing.

 

[JWong]

Seriously, this mod doesnt get enough love. Its amazing.

Because it's just a one time show. It's not even a game.

 

[Deadbeat]

Then Mech Warrior Living Legends.

The reason you dont see so many mods like MWLL coming out is because most of the people working on the mod are getting scooped up before they are anywhere near finishing development. Since dev time for making games has grown, the amount of complete total conversions has gone down. That doesnt mean the relevance of modding has been lost though.

 

[1-D_FTW]

demize99 sounds like a douche sometimes, but that's because of the internet. Would you get angry if somebody in real life said that Killzone 2 sucks? But people on the internet were out for his blood.

Me and my friends not only said it, we laughed about just how terrible it was. It became a contest to see who played the least amount of time before quitting for good.

 

[subversus]

Then Mech Warrior Living Legends.

The reason you dont see so many mods like MWLL coming out is because most of the people working on the mod are getting scooped up before they are anywhere near finishing development. Since dev time for making games has grown, the amount of complete total conversions has gone down. That doesnt mean the relevance of modding has been lost though.

Also a lot of modders quit to pursue professional carrer. Warm Gun development was stopped at least once because people were snatched up by major studios. The guy from Mechwarrior team works as Cryengine evangelist at Crytek now (that's not his job title but it's something like that).

 

[spicy cho]

What the hell, Battlefield 2 was born from Desert Combat mod, so they can fuck off.

Quoting an excellent point. DICE has lost touch this gen.