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[HK-47]

I'd start with the Dunk and Egg stories (they're in the ASOIAF universe but are all self-contained novellas), the Dreamsongs collections, and Fevre Dream. I haven't read the others, but from what I've heard, they're all good.

I've already read Dunk and Egg.

 

[subversus]

BGII wasn't as brilliant as some people make it out to be, but its really really hard to list very many WPRGs with better consistent writing without playing the Planescape: Torment card. Mediocre to good is what we've had to settle for so far, there are so few genuinely great written RPGs.

I hope it gets better but so far Fallout 2 beats it in terms of writing (I was replaying it last year). Well, pretty much every WRPG I've played except euro ones beats it in terms of writing but I can't judge it yet. It's only the first dungeon.

As a game it's addicting.

 

[HK-47]

I would tend to agree. People will claim KOTOR as a game that disproves this, but I always felt it got far too much undeserved praise based on the IP and by being one of the first modern WRPGs on consoles. The morality meter and choices probably seemed amazing to a console crowd that had just came off a generation where RPG were big and everyone was playing those 5 disc JRPGs where the only real choice you have is to press X.

KOTOR is not straight up bad like Dragon Age 2, but it is woefully average in the grand scheme of things.

Its a very good Star Wars game. I think it captures the wonder of the O. Trilogy very well.

 

[The Technomancer]

I really want to make a "Was BioWare's top-tier status a fluke" thread, but I don't feel comfortable writing the OP with authority. Someone with more knowledge of their history want to take it?

 

[HK-47]

Exactly. We're incredibly harsh with JRPGs (ignoring the translation factor) but we give free passes to frankly embarassing stuff like NWN.

I have never seen anyone around here praise NWN for story or campaign. Almost everyone that likes it does so on the strength of the mod tools or Horde.

 

[Ceebs]

Its a very good Star Wars game. I think it captures the wonder of the O. Trilogy very well.

Maybe it's my complete lack of interest in Star Wars then. The game really does nothing for me. (well other than your namesake got a few chuckles out of me here and there)

 

[Hari Seldon]

BGII wasn't as brilliant as some people make it out to be, but its really really hard to list very many WPRGs with better consistent writing without playing the Planescape: Torment card. Mediocre to good is what we've had to settle for so far, there are so few genuinely great written RPGs.

NWN2: Mask of the Betrayer* expansion had really solid writing. But I agree with you, most RPGs are still sub-RA Salvatore level with splashes of furry fanfic romance.


* Obsidian

 

[HK-47]

I really want to make a "Was BioWare's top-tier status a fluke" thread, but I don't feel comfortable writing the OP with authority. Someone with more knowledge of their history want to take it?

No it wasnt. They games are very popular, very accessible and before DA, marketed smartly.

You can argue whther they are given undue credit, but they are still a top tier dev who has gone for accessibility and lowest common denominator funbucks. Maybe we should see how TOR, ME3, and DAIII end up. DAII was one shitty rushed game. ME2 was the most polished game in their history.

 

[Ulairi]

No it wasnt. They games are very popular, very accessible and before DA, marketed smartly.

You can argue whther they are given undue credit, but they are still a top tier dev who has gone for accessibility and lowest common denominator funbucks. Maybe we should see how TOR, ME3, and DAIII end up. DAII was one shitty rushed game. ME2 was the most polished game in their history.

While ME2 was very polished it wasn't ambitious. The biggest downfall is the ambition of Bioware has shrunk.

 

[The Technomancer]

NWN2: Mask of the Betrayer* expansion had really solid writing. But I agree with you, most RPGs are still sub-RA Salvatore level with splashes of furry fanfic romance.

Yeah, as it is I tend to prefer RPGs that go for the more minimalist approach, focusing on atmosphere and exploration over a dedicated story with cutscenes and events, although that's probably my love of Geneforge showing.

 

[VisanidethDM]

I haven't played Two Worlds 2, is the story better or worse than DA2? I need some WRPG fix and I don't want to play Witcher 2.

Play The Witcher 2. Trust me.

 

[D2M15]

I really want to make a "Was BioWare's top-tier status a fluke" thread

Isn't every RPG thread a 'Was BioWare's top-tier status a fluke' thread?

Like Bethesda, they saw an opening on console and rushed to fill it, while other developers bankrupted themselves on the PC RPG's customary long dev cycles and shaky launches.

 

[HK-47]

While ME2 was very polished it wasn't ambitious. The biggest downfall is the ambition of Bioware has shrunk.

And meanwhile Obsidian is off being ambitious while still failing miserably at making a stable game, doing shit on time, not getting doormatted by pubs, and keeping pub support. Guess who has been having job cuts?

 

[VisanidethDM]

NWN2: Mask of the Betrayer* expansion had really solid writing. But I agree with you, most RPGs are still sub-RA Salvatore level with splashes of furry fanfic romance.


* Obsidian

That's an entirely new level of awful.

 

[Dennis]

Soon to come thread:

EA: "We lost the last of the fans with Dragon Age 3"

 

[HK-47]

Isn't every RPG thread a 'Was BioWare's top-tier status a fluke' thread?

Like Bethesda, they saw an opening on console and rushed to fill it, while other developers bankrupted themselves on the PC RPG's customary long dev cycles and shaky launches.

What other devs? Troika wasnt killed by dev cycles, and the shaking launch was the least of their problems.

 

[truly101]

While ME2 was very polished it wasn't ambitious. The biggest downfall is the ambition of Bioware has shrunk.

Depends on how you want to define that ambition I suppose. ME2 in a lot of ways is still being judged on what a bunch of jaded fans were hoping the first game was going to be.

 

[VisanidethDM]

No it wasnt. They games are very popular, very accessible and before DA, marketed smartly.

They also had the marked advantage of being the only games in the genre, more or less.

 

[HK-47]

Depends on how you want to define that ambition I suppose. ME2 in a lot of ways is still being judged on what a bunch of jaded fans were hoping the first game was going to be.

Please, spare me. ME2 is very conservative in design, often cutting instead of improving and aping other better games while putting together a fetch quest for surfacely interesting characters.

 

[Ceebs]

I haven't played Two Worlds 2, is the story better or worse than DA2? I need some WRPG fix and I don't want to play Witcher 2.

Two Worlds has a story, but it's like mid 90's video game bad. That game is about exploring the environment you are in. It has some decent plot hooks in the side quests though, so it's not without any redeemable narrative.

ME2 was the most polished game in their history.

And it sits with Jade Empire, DA2 and NWN down on the list of Bioware games I will never even consider playing again. ME2 was polished to high hell, but to me it was a sterile and lifeless husk of a game. It reminded me of any of the countless forgettable summer CGI fest movies. Looks great, but has no actual substance to it.

 

[subversus]

Depends on how you want to define that ambition I suppose. ME2 in a lot of ways is still being judged on what a bunch of jaded fans were hoping the first game was going to be.

I liked ME2 better than ME1 but it certainly was less ambitious.

 

[Special J]

PR stint if i ever saw one, they're pandering and wont give a shit what you say.

I liked ME2 better than ME1 but it certainly was less ambitious.

me1 was bad tho, autosaving that would pause your game, broken ass cover system, inventory broken, mako broken, omnigel wtf, korgan bullet sponges, but as bad it was somehow it was still compelling to play lol

 

[truly101]

Please, spare me. ME2 is very conservative in design, often cutting instead of improving and aping other better games while putting together a fetch quest for surfacely interesting characters.

While ME follows the exact story progression template of KoTOR and pretty much every bioware RPG? Not exactly what I'd call trail blazing either.

Keep in mind, your average sequel is going to seem less ambitious because a lot of the lore, story arc and rules have already been established by the previous game. ME2 didn't introduce as much new as ME1 did, thats to be expected.

 

[VisanidethDM]

ME2 was ambitious in presentation only.

 

[VisanidethDM]

While ME follows the exact story progression template of KoTOR and pretty much every bioware RPG? Not exactly what I'd call trail blazing either.

But here we go back to Bioware being unimaginative technicians who rode the success of their source material.

If there's a one trick pony in this industry, it's Bioware.

 

[D2M15]

What other devs? Troika wasnt killed by dev cycles, and the shaking launch was the least of their problems.

Black Isle, Troika, Origin, New World, Sierra and MicroProse's guys, Sir-Tech, yadda yadda. (Bonus amusing comment from a 1998 Sir-Tech RIP article: "IGNPC: You don't think small or middle-tier companies like Bethesda or Interactive Magic will make it?")

And of course Troika were killed by expensive dev cycles and games launched with reams of cut content and fatal bugs. Complex RPGs, especially ones trying to straddle technological leaps, are a kiss of death.

 

[water_wendi]

Black Isle, Troika, Origin, New World, Sierra and MicroProse's guys, Sir-Tech, yadda yadda. (Bonus amusing comment from a 1998 Sir-Tech RIP article: "IGNPC: You don't think small or middle-tier companies like Bethesda or Interactive Magic will make it?")

And of course Troika were killed by expensive dev cycles and games launched with reams of cut content and fatal bugs. Complex RPGs, especially ones trying to straddle technological leaps, are a kiss of death.

Many of those companies closed due to their parent companies either folding or being absorbed and then shuttered.

 

[D2M15]

Yes, and they did so because they were no longer able to supply commercially viable projects. I promise I'm not just making this up.

Anyway, back to arguing about Dragon Age.

 

[Lothars]

But here we go back to Bioware being unimaginative technicians who rode the success of their source material.

If there's a one trick pony in this industry, it's Bioware.

Your wrong though, I wouldn't call Bioware a one trick pony, there's other developers way more deserving of that.

 

[Patryn]

ME2 was only ambitious in the way it told its story.

People have to realize that ambition != quality and vice versa. An unambitious game can be quite good.

And it would be hard to argue that that ME2 attempted to do more than ME1. Sure, it may have pulled off what it tried better than ME1 did (arguably), but its scope was much, much more narrow.

 

[HK-47]

Black Isle, Troika, Origin, New World, Sierra and MicroProse's guys, Sir-Tech, yadda yadda. (Bonus amusing comment from a 1998 Sir-Tech RIP article: "IGNPC: You don't think small or middle-tier companies like Bethesda or Interactive Magic will make it?")

And of course Troika were killed by expensive dev cycles and games launched with reams of cut content and fatal bugs. Complex RPGs, especially ones trying to straddle technological leaps, are a kiss of death.

Most of those were closed due to parent company problems, especially Black Isle.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Is that so surprising? It started out insanely well. The first book is absolutely amazing. With such an incipit, you could nosedive and still pas the finish line with quality material.

I'll agree that the first book is overall the best book in the series, but, in my opinion, they are all of a very similar quality, including A Feast for Crows.

Here I'm not really contesting the content of the plotlines (not all of them are of quality, tho), but the pacing.
AGoT is, by now, spread way too thin over too many characters and plotlines. And what's more worrysome is not the ones that are still open, but the ones he closed. Some of that stuff is completely and absolutely unsatisfactory - I cited some of the best examples. You may argue that there's still more books coming, and you'd be right, but we're some thousands pages into the saga and

Spoiler

aside from the disaster in the first 2 books, the Starks have gone nowhere; Danaerys is in the same position she was after Drogo's death, more or less; Greyjoys were introduced for no apparent reason; Catelyn's cliffhanger was completely abandoned and we've gone like 800 pages without a single word about her; and so on and so forth).

Then you got Aria's plot. Once again, a constant buildup, constant shocks, but... where is it going? The fear at this point is that once again we'll get a lot of details and lots of emotional investement over some characters that Martin will decide to kill behind the scenes at some point, or put out of the story, with no satisfactory conclusion.

Personally, I never really felt unsatisfied with how he closed some of the plot lines thus far, but I can see why some people would be. I disagree about

Spoiler

Daenerys being in the same position as right after Drogo's death. She now has an army, different companions, as well as a lot more knowledge and experience. Sure, she hasn't made it to Westeros yet, but it's not like she had the means to do so after Drogo died. Regarding, the Greyjoys, I personally dislike all of them, especially Damphair. I generally skim through their chapters when reading the books over again. However, I can also see that Martin has some big plans for them, so I'm sure they won't be pointless in the grand scheme of things.

Anyway, I'm expecting a lot of payoff for all of the buildup and suspense. It's been a long wait for Dance, and expectations are high, but I don't think I'll go away unsatisfied. I may end up being wrong, though.

I still buy the books as soon as they're out. I have generally stopped reading fantasy novels because they're terrible, but I still read Martin because he's not. But I'm not in love with the saga anymore, I have very little faith in having a satisfactory conclusion to the tale, and worse still, Martin has teased me so much (and so cheaply) that now what I feel for the tale and the characters is apathy if not boredom. He's playing with his audience, instead of writing a story.

Since you seem to be a very jaded fantasy fan with some extremely high standards, would you mind recommending some games/books in the genre that you think are good to excellent?

edit: ah shit, he got banned. I hope it wasn't for anything in this thread.

 

[water_wendi]

Yes, and they did so because they were no longer able to supply commercially viable projects. I promise I'm not just making this up.

Anyway, back to arguing about Dragon Age.

Afaik Black Isle was unable to supply a commercially viable product because their parent company lost the rights to Baldurs Gate.

Origin Systems was tasked with pumping out expansion packs to Ultima Online at the expense of other games.

New World Computing was gutted because 3DO couldnt survive on shitting out Army Men games. When 3DO later went bankrupt they brought down NWC with them.

i dont see what this has to do with long development cycles and shaky launches. Only one of the companies you mentioned had an abnormally long dev cycle but it was only because their parent company bungled the IP management.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Maybe it's my complete lack of interest in Star Wars then. The game really does nothing for me. (well other than your namesake got a few chuckles out of me here and there)

Taken for its own merits, KOTOR is merely a decent game. You really need to have a love, or at least some level of affection for Star Wars and its setting to think KOTOR is a great game. As far as I know, it was the first competently done Star Wars RPG (if not the first Star Wars RPG).

 

[SneakyStephan]

Soon to come thread:

EA: "We lost the last of the fans with Dragon Age 3"

That's okay, they can pull an Activision and set two seperate teams to alternate making Mass effect games twice as often.

 

[kitzkozan]

But here we go back to Bioware being unimaginative technicians who rode the success of their source material.

If there's a one trick pony in this industry, it's Bioware.

I said it before and I'll say again, western rpg developers end up being the poor childs of the western videogame world. If you look at sale data, western audience do not care all that much for rpg unlike Japan and thus it's just normal that people seeking job in the videogame industry won't look forward to work for Bioware or Bethesda or Obsidian. If you say that Elder scroll sell a lot, more than FF even well you just prove my point as people buy these games for the sandbox aspect and not the writing or roleplaying which is poor. Thus you end up with most of the talent flocking toward shooter/action/sport studios or the prestigious one like Blizzard, Valve or Rockstar.

Wrpg studios are stuck with lesser animators, programmers, artists, game designers, etc. Bioware, Bethesda and Obsidian have plenty of tech problem or awful art direction or lack of polish. CD Projekt is an exception since there's not much to work for in Poland if you are interested in the videogame industry. I am sure they have most of the top talent from Poland working for them.

 

[subversus]

Wrpg studios are stuck with lesser animators, programmers, artists, game designers, etc. Bioware, Bethesda and Obsidian have plenty of tech problem or awful art direction or lack of polish. CD Projekt is an exception since there's not much to work for in Poland if you are interested in the videogame industry. I am sure they have most of the top talent from Poland working for them.

I don't think so. I think it has to do more with studio culture and publishers. Bethesda has one of the best fantasy concept artists working with them on Skyrim. Bioware can produce very solid sci-fi art for Mass Effect. But you can clearly see that their art is aimed at the lowest common denominator. It's not like there are a lot of games with good art direction. Most of them look generic on purpose.

 

[MalboroRed]

Soon to come thread:

EA: "We lost the last of the fans with Dragon Age 3"

They would never say that, they would say they gained new fans even though the old fans have moved on and that DA3 appeals to a new and larger group of gamers, some bullshit like that because I'm sure people buy into all of their bullshit marketing enough to get the game.

 

[BeauRoger]

Since you seem to be a very jaded fantasy fan with some extremely high standards, would you mind recommending some games/books in the genre that you think are good to excellent?

edit: ah shit, he got banned. I hope it wasn't for anything in this thread.

Try "The Farseer Trilogy" by Robin Hobb. One of the better written fantasy series out there. A very personal and up close story with absolutely no fan service and extremely well written characters. On the surface its about politics and national conflicts ,but at its core its really about the main character, his choices and how he is shaped by the events and people around him.

A Really great read, and one of the few well written and engaging fantasy series out there.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Try "The Farseer Trilogy" by Robin Hobb. One of the better written fantasy series out there. A very personal and up close story with absolutely no fan service and extremely well written characters. On the surface its about politics and national conflicts ,but at its core its really about the main character, his choices and how he is shaped by the events and people around him.

A Really great read, and one of the few well written and engaging fantasy series out there.

I've seen Robin Hobb and that particular trilogy recommended a few times. I think I'll check it out. I've read that GRRM is actually a big fan of Hobb, too.

 

[BeauRoger]

I've seen Robin Hobb and that particular trilogy recommended a few times. I think I'll check it out. I've read that GRRM is actually a big fan of Hobb, too.

DO IT!

 

[Fimbulvetr]

Hell given the maturity level of the media that covers games I think you should consider yourselves lucky to get any at all.

That's right, lower them standards.

 

[Sir Garbageman]

DO IT!

Agreed. Really solid read.

 

[The Technomancer]

Since you seem to be a very jaded fantasy fan with some extremely high standards, would you mind recommending some games/books in the genre that you think are good to excellent?

edit: ah shit, he got banned. I hope it wasn't for anything in this thread.

Because you asked and because I like name dropping this series whenever possible: the Long Price Quartet, by Abraham

 

[IoCaster]

I've seen Robin Hobb and that particular trilogy recommended a few times. I think I'll check it out. I've read that GRRM is actually a big fan of Hobb, too.

I never cared for Hobb. Her fantasy is caught up in too much emotional and melodramatic garbage. Even Feist, Wurts and Modesitt are better at world building and characterization on almost every level. I'd be more inclined to recommend Erikson (Malazan - Book of the Fallen), Abercrombie (First Law trilogy) or heck even going with the pulp style of Moorcock or Gemmell. If you're looking for something off the beaten path then I would recommend Steven Brust with the Vlad Taltos series and his Phoenix Guard spin-off series. There's always the fall back option of diving into the Robert Jordan "Wheel of Time" books with the caveat that Sanderson is finishing the series and his own Mistborn trilogy is well worth a read. I could go on, but seriously there's no shortage of good and/or great fantasy available right now if you look around.

 

[webrunner]

I suggest giving Discworld a try. Great series.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Thanks for all of the recommendations.

I like my fantasy books to be somewhat grounded. This made Steven Erikson's stuff completely unreadable for me. I only made it 100 pages or so into the first book and gave up. I've also heard that the Wheel of Time series is full of ridiculous stuff, too, and I've avoided it as a result.

I liked Abercrombie's stuff quite a bit, although I dropped The Heroes midway. I'll have to give it another try someday.

I've never heard of Feist Wurts, or Modesitt, but I'll go ahead and check them out. Same with Abraham.

Discworld is great, although I've only read The Colour of Magic. I consider it more of a comedy book than a fantasy novel, though. I plan on reading more of the series, but I'm looking for something a bit more 'serious' in tone at the moment.

I've heard good things about Moorcock, though, even if his stuff is more "pulpy". What's a good book of his with which to start?

 

[webrunner]

Discworld is great, although I've only read The Colour of Magic. I consider it more of a comedy book than a fantasy novel, though. I plan on reading more of the series, but I'm looking for something a bit more 'serious' in tone at the moment.

Some of the later books (particularly the later vimes books like Night Watch and Thud!) tone down the humor - what humor is there is pretty dry and they get pretty dark at times.

The first few books are basically silly parody romps, the 'midseries' (around about moving pictures) are pretty wacky in their own right, but less parody. Later books tend to use humor as a knife instead of a bludgeon, and tend to have some real things to say.

 

[The Technomancer]

Discworld is great, although I've only read The Colour of Magic. I consider it more of a comedy book than a fantasy novel, though. I plan on reading more of the series, but I'm looking for something a bit more 'serious' in tone at the moment.

That's why you think of it that way.
His first four or five books in the series are definitely more comedic and parody then anything else. But by the time he really gets going, its an utterly fantastic fantasy series with comedic elements. Books like Witches Abroad and Thud! and Going Postal are some of the best I've ever read, bar none.

 

[subversus]

I'd also recommend "Steel Remains" by Richard Morgan (yes, that one) if you're ok with a gay character as a protagonist.

Here's excerpt:

http://www.randomhouse.com/book/117159/the-steel-remains-by-richard-k-morgan#excerpt