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[Valnen]

These are probably anti-cheating measures, which is a good thing. Pretty sure Blizzard's warden does some of that stuff too.

 

[Twinduct]

LOl i can just imagine how this will end up.

<intern runs up to Peter Moore's office>
Intern: Sir, we've finally finished correlating all the collected date we got from origin ..
Peter: And? Tell me know I need to know what our fanbase does when they're not gaming!
Intern: Well sir ... they watch porn and bitch about games on messageboards ...
Peter: ... oh ... could have called that ....

 

[Tain]

Have we confirmed that Origin actually does this stuff, yet? Or only that the shitty EULA leaves EA open to it?

 

[Barack Lesnar]

Steam's anticheat (like Blizzard's Warden) certainly keeps track of more than just "what you installed and who you chat with". They check all things you have running in memory.

Not trusting EA is one thing and is certainly a rational position. What bugs me is the invention of these drastic differences when there isn't anywhere near that.

Also how is EA's "we may share information that does not personally identify you" is different from Steam's "we may share aggregate info but not personally identifiable info"... ?

Well said. EA could track how often I masturbate per week for all I care (bout twice a week)... BF3 will be mine! Muahaha!

Thanks for sharing...

lol

 

[benny_a]

These are probably anti-cheating measures, which is a good thing. Pretty sure Blizzard's warden does some of that stuff too.

That's one part. The other part of the EULA says that they are allowed to share this data with their marketing partners.

 

[Emitan]

Well said. EA could track how often I masturbate per week for all I care (bout twice a week)... BF3 will be mine! Muahaha!

Thanks for sharing...

 

[whatsinaname]

Steam's anticheat (like Blizzard's Warden) certainly keeps track of more than just "what you installed and who you chat with". They check all things you have running in memory.

Not trusting EA is one thing and is certainly a rational position. What bugs me is the invention of these drastic differences when there isn't anywhere near that.

Also how is EA's "we may share information that does not personally identify you" is different from Steam's "we may share aggregate info but not personally identifiable info"... ?

There you go. That is third party and I would never install it.

VAC, I believe, looks in memory to detect if third party modifications are made to games with VAC enabled. I think it checks for signatures of games and not at other programs. Of course, if I stand corrected here, I will be uninstalling any games I have installed with VAC enabled.

When Steam wants me to send them my hardware info, they ask me.

If Origin wanted to share my Origin usage info, I would consider the balance between what they are offering me and whether that is worth trading for. (Just like I accept that cost for Google and Steam and Facebook). What I don't want to share, I keep off their services. Considering that Origin wants me to share my complete computer's profile, I'll just stay off it. No cause to rage. It's just a service that has a cost that I am unwilling to pay.

 

[Haunted]

Leave it to EA to manage to shit on a legacy even long after it's gone.

 

[FieryBalrog]

There you go. That is third party and I would never install it.

VAC, I believe, looks in memory to detect if third party modifications are made to games with VAC enabled. I think it checks for signatures of games and not at other programs. Of course, if I stand corrected here, I will be uninstalling any games I have installed with VAC enabled.

They both do essentially the same thing, I find it hilarious that one is "third party" and one is uh, something else. By the way, no one knows exactly how VAC works because Valve doesn't want anyone to know, so I find it amazing that you are able to draw some super fine distinction between VAC and Warden. I think it has a little more to do with your personal fandom than anything else.

 

[Chinner]

lol at origin fanboys on the offensive

 

[jim-jam bongs]

There's a difference between "we check in-memory for running processes which can be used for cheating" and "we like to check out what you have installed even if it's not running while Origin is".

 

[tiff]

Have we confirmed that Origin actually does this stuff, yet? Or only that the shitty EULA leaves EA open to it?

If they're open to do it then why wouldn't they do it? What's stopping them?

 

[Goldmund]

For all non-American GAFers: are EULAs legally binding in your country? They almost never are in Germany. You'd have to agree to them before the purchase for them to be contractual. Clicking »I agree« during installation has no effect. If you bought Battlefield 3 at retail, installed Origin when you got home and »agreed« to the EULA, EA starting to track your software/hardware information would be illegal.

 

[raphier]

LOl i can just imagine how this will end up.

<intern runs up to Peter Moore's office>
Intern: Sir, we've finally finished correlating all the collected date we got from origin ..
Peter: And? Tell me know I need to know what our fanbase does when they're not gaming!
Intern: Well sir ... they watch porn and bitch about games on messageboards ...
Peter: ... oh ... could have called that ....

Hmm that doesn't bite. I think it's more n the line with piracy. They will cut you from your future EA purchases (or existing ones) if you end up pirating EA games and they learn so throught Origin...THat would be more EA-like.

And selling your internet habits to third-parties for advertising.

 

[FieryBalrog]

We didn't cover too many EULA cases in Contracts but they have at least sometimes been upheld in US court, yes.

 

[legend166]

I look forward to the day where Origin scans for torrent clients and immediately shuts off if it finds any.

 

[Ponti]

I look forward to the day where Origin scans for torrent clients and immediately shuts off if it finds any.

I have a feeling they'll circumvent Origin anyway.

In other words they'll become the superior versions, as usual.

 

[JWong]

I've bolded the things that I find personally unjustifiable because you can't opt-out.

Yeah, that might be an issue. Not being able to opt out.

I haven't used Origins yet, but my console analogy won't work against that argument. You can opt out of user data collection in PS3 and 360.

I heard this is all legal in the states, however, some countries, like Germany, ban companies from taking user data.

 

[whatsinaname]

They both do essentially the same thing, I find it hilarious that one is "third party" and one is uh, something else. By the way, no one knows exactly how VAC works because Valve doesn't want anyone to know, so I find it amazing that you are able to draw some super fine distinction between VAC and Warden. I think it has a little more to do with your personal fandom than anything else.

Yeah, no. A program checking memory integrity of what it loads into memory itself is different from looking at what else is installed on your machine.

 

[Htown]

Steam's anticheat (like Blizzard's Warden) certainly keeps track of more than just "what you installed and who you chat with". They check all things you have running in memory.

Not trusting EA is one thing and is certainly a rational position. What bugs me is the invention of these drastic differences when there isn't anywhere near that.

Also how is EA's "we may share information that does not personally identify you" is different from Steam's "we may share aggregate info but not personally identifiable info"... ?

You honestly don't see the difference between checking to see that what you have in memory at the time of play isn't a cheat, and seeing what you have on your computer or in your internet history so they can use it as marketing data? Are you fucking serious?

Also, the "information" that Valve collects is a way fucking narrower category than the "information" EA collects. Valve's has to do with what you are doing IN STEAM, and not what you're doing otherwise, unless you choose to join the hardware survey. EA wants to use your browsing habits to serve you ads.

This is not fucking difficult to understand. But what happens in every EA vs. Valve thread (of which there are too many) is that somebody comes in and says YEAH WELL WHAT EA'S DOING IS THIS AND VALVE IS DOING THE SAME THING. The problem is that statement is only true if you completely ignore the details of each situation. It's like saying, THOSE GUYS ARE BOTH DRIVING CARS, IT'S THE SAME THING, when one of them is a professional driver who tests vehicles for a living and has been at it for a decade, riding in a top of the line Mercedes with only a few thousand miles on it while following the expected road rules, and the other is a drunk 17 year old with bad vision who left his glasses at home, riding in a broken down Pinto that may not make it around the next corner as he floors the gas pedal and swerves all over the road.

Yeah, I guess they're both DRIVING CARS, if you want to ignore the details, but if you actually look at the situation it's clear what's going on.

 

[Sutton Dagger]

I look forward to the day where Origin scans for torrent clients and immediately shuts off if it finds any.

The ultimate troll would be to download EA games

 

[FieryBalrog]

Yeah, no. A program checking memory integrity of what it loads into memory itself is different from looking at what else is installed on your machine.

Like I said, no one really knows how VAC OR Warden work exactly. You work for both companies? Wanna back up what you're saying here? "I think" doesn't cut it.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

The ultimate troll would be to download EA games

Nah, it'll just download torrents of COD games then periodically email screenshots showing the number of seeders and leechers to Bobby.

 

[whatsinaname]

Like I said, no one really knows how VAC OR Warden work exactly. You work for both companies? Wanna back up what you're saying here? "I think" doesn't cut it.

The VAC system reliably detects cheats using their cheat signatures. Any third-party modification to a game designed to give one player an advantage over another is classified as a cheat or hack and will trigger a VAC ban. This includes modifications to a game's core executable files and dynamic link libraries.

That is directly from what Valve says VAC does. It detects changes to DLLs and exe's of games (would be in memory and files themselves).

I guess now you'll say Valve may be lying?

 

[benny_a]

Like I said, no one really knows how VAC OR Warden work exactly. You work for both companies? Wanna back up what you're saying here? "I think" doesn't cut it.

All we can do is to talk about the agreements that are in place. With Blizzard, even if they are technically capable of monitoring more things, their Terms of Use doesn't allow them to.

Also they specifically state that they will not share their data with any third party except for law enforcement. Very different from the Origin EULA.

 

[Goldmund]

You honestly don't see the difference between checking to see that what you have in memory at the time of play isn't a cheat, and seeing what you have on your computer or in your internet history so they can use it as marketing data? Are you fucking serious?

Also, the "information" that Valve collects is a way fucking narrower category than the "information" EA collects. Valve's has to do with what you are doing IN STEAM, and not what you're doing otherwise, unless you choose to join the hardware survey. EA wants to use your browsing habits to serve you ads.

This is not fucking difficult to understand. But what happens in every EA vs. Valve thread (of which there are too many) is that somebody comes in and says YEAH WELL WHAT EA'S DOING IS THIS AND VALVE IS DOING THE SAME THING. The problem is that statement is only true if you completely ignore the details of each situation. It's like saying, THOSE GUYS ARE BOTH DRIVING CARS, IT'S THE SAME THING, when one of them is a professional driver who tests vehicles for a living and has been at it for a decade, riding in a top of the line Mercedes with only a few thousand miles on it while following the expected road rules, and the other is a drunk 17 year old with bad vision who left his glasses at home, riding in a broken down Pinto that may not make it around the next corner as he floors the gas pedal and swerves all over the road.

Yeah, I guess they're both DRIVING CARS, if you want to ignore the details, but if you actually look at the situation it's clear what's going on.

Look back at what Peter.Simpson909 said. No argument will ever persuade the respective other side. Some people's logic is closely structured after obedience. Its operations provide a functional order of things. To them, it's what connects acts, makes them social. They're not deluded. It has nothing to do with a lack of intelligence or understanding. It's a way of thinking. You can't escape yours either.

(I'm not saying this is the case for FieryBalrog.)

 

[dragonlife]

Wow, good thing I haven't upgraded to Origin. I only downloaded the dumb EA manager because I got Mass Effect 2 for free.

 

[mrfolego]

does steam have this in their agreement

 

[FieryBalrog]

The VAC system reliably detects cheats using their cheat signatures. Any third-party modification to a game designed to give one player an advantage over another is classified as a cheat or hack and will trigger a VAC ban. This includes modifications to a game's core executable files and dynamic link libraries.

That is directly from what Valve says VAC does. It detects changes to DLLs and exe's of games (would be in memory and files themselves).

I guess now you'll say Valve may be lying?

No, I'll say "slick job there spinning that statement".

Any third-party modification to a game designed to give one player an advantage over another is classified as a cheat or hack and will trigger a VAC ban. This includes modifications to a game's core executable files and dynamic link libraries

turns into

It detects changes to DLLs and exe's of games (would be in memory and files themselves). (with the subtext of "this is all it does").

And you still haven't shown how what Warden does is significantly different.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warden_(software)

 

[inky]

does steam have this in their agreement

You might want to read the thread...

 

[FieryBalrog]

Look back at what Peter.Simpson909 said. No argument will ever persuade the respective other side. Some people's logic is closely structured after obedience. Its operations provide a functional order of things. To them, it's what connects acts, makes them social. They're not deluded. It has nothing to do with a lack of intelligence or understanding. It's a way of thinking. You can't escape yours either.

(I'm not saying this is the case for FieryBalrog.)

I'm not saying that VAC/Warden and Steam/Blizzard whatever are equivalent to what EA is doing. Just saying the difference is not nearly as large as people are making it out to be.

 

[HDgaming42]

Yes, its a mindset. The sooner you accept that and move on you'll be happier. No number of perfectly constructed car analogies will sway them to "see the light". (I still struggle with this--used one last week if I recall)

They honestly see nothing wrong with it--nor will they ever. If the number of those people one day outnumbers people like me--privacy is done. Until then, those people just believe it to be over--and that it never mattered.

Thankfully in Canada we have a law that appears to disagree.

4.3.3
An organization shall not, as a condition of the supply of a product
or service, require an individual to consent to the collection, use, or
disclosure of information beyond that required to fulfil [sic] the explicitly
specified, and legitimate purposes.

Seems pretty clear cut to me. Where's the opt-out for Canadians, E-Eh? (Did you see what I did there?)

 

[Goldmund]

I'm not saying that VAC/Warden and Steam/Blizzard whatever are equivalent to what EA is doing. Just saying the difference is not nearly as large as people are making it out to be.

Yeah, I know. I added that sentence in parentheses because it seemed as if I was sketching a psychogram of the person he was quoting, who happened to be you, while I was in fact only responding to his anger. Nothing spells out anger like a car analogy.

 

[dorkimoe]

Don't use Origin

Problem solved.

Easy to say when you dont get in the BF3 alpha

 

[The Technomancer]

I'm not saying that VAC/Warden and Steam/Blizzard whatever are equivalent to what EA is doing. Just saying the difference is not nearly as large as people are making it out to be.

It became large as soon as they brought browsing history into it.

 

[HDgaming42]

Nothing spells out anger like a car analogy.

Amen!

*scratches head*

{hold on--as a junior I can't even search for my own posts? What do you to do to "graduate" out of junior status? Hmmmmm...I'm SURE I used a car analogy...maybe in the BioWare thread?}

 

[benny_a]

It became large as soon as they brought browsing history into it.

On what is that "browsing history" based on? Is it literally the "software" part in the enumeration?

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Yeah, I know. I added that sentence in parentheses because it seemed as if I was sketching a psychogram of the person he was quoting, who happened to be you, while I was in fact only responding to his anger. Nothing spells out anger like a car analogy.

My rage is like the roar of a V8, that kind of thing?

 

[HDgaming42]

My rage is like the roar of a V8, that kind of thing?

That would be a simile. Try this:

BioWare used to make high-end luxury vehicles--now they make cheap Kia's because they feel they can sell more of them.

THERE WE GO! I'm sure my analogy was something like that...

 

[Goldmund]

My rage is like the roar of a V8, that kind of thing?

No, that's a k&#333;an.

 

[FieryBalrog]

Amen!

*scratches head*

{hold on--as a junior I can't even search for my own posts? What do you to do to "graduate" out of junior status? Hmmmmm...I'm SURE I used a car analogy...maybe in the BioWare thread?}

No one (except maybe the mods) can search for anything except with the google search. Searching is pretty expensive for a forum this large.

 

[The Technomancer]

On what is that "browsing history" based on? Is it literally the "software" part in the enumeration?

I'm going off of the OP. If I'm mistaken I'll track down the actual agreement in this thread and comment.

 

[HDgaming42]

No one (except maybe the mods) can search for anything except with the google search. Searching is pretty expensive for a forum this large.

Makes sense. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[benny_a]

I'm going off of the OP. If I'm mistaken I'll track down the actual agreement in this thread and comment.

The relevant portion of the EULA.
I haven't seen the web browsing history substantiated anywhere, that's why I ask.

 

[The Technomancer]

The relevant portion of the EULA.
I haven't seen the web browsing history substantiated anywhere, that's why I ask.

Gotcha. In that case yeah, browsing history isn't confirmed. But if anything sharing information with external parties is worse.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

That would be a simile.

You are correct. I always thought the distinction was an odd one anyway, since my statement can be made metaphorical by removing the word "like", i.e:

My rage is the roar of a V8

I guess the distinction is useful because the overuse of simile usually results in excessively dry prose, while metaphor is generally more poetic.

No, that's a k&#333;an.

If Origin finds a trainer running on your system but is blocked by the firewall does it ban the account?

 

[echoshifting]

it isn't.

For you.

If you don't "get" privacy and the desire to retain it--you won't. You simply won't. You're not wired to understand it. Or apparently desire it. If you think privacy is the act of hiding things that are wrong and/or illegal, then you most certainly belong in this category.

No one will be able to "explain" this to you because you can't process it. It won't mesh. There will be no conversion of mindsets in this thread.

If you don't value privacy, move along--there will be nothing here for you but a lot of angry people you can't hope to understand.

Arguing that privacy is antiquated because you have chosen to freely give it away is not going to win anyone over.

This is not directed at any one individual--there a lot of threads to read on NeoGAF. Just trying to save some of you some time and heartache.

Awesome post, even if it won't have any impact on the course of the thread. Deserves to be quoted for the next page.

DD services have practically evolved into console-like programs in the minds of their fans. People hang their hat on this one or that one and lash out at anyone who they view as unfairly critical. It's actually kind of fascinating to watch.

 

[aeolist]

Awesome post, even if it won't have any impact on the course of the thread. Deserves to be quoted for the next page.

DD services have practically evolved into console-like programs in the minds of their fans. People hang their hat on this one or that one and lash out at anyone who they view as unfairly critical. It's actually kind of fascinating to watch.

This is an excellent and relevant article: http://chronicle.com/article/Why-Privacy-Matters-Even-if/127461/

 

[whatsinaname]

No, I'll say "slick job there spinning that statement".

Any third-party modification to a game designed to give one player an advantage over another is classified as a cheat or hack and will trigger a VAC ban. This includes modifications to a game's core executable files and dynamic link libraries

turns into

It detects changes to DLLs and exe's of games (would be in memory and files themselves). (with the subtext of "this is all it does").

And you still haven't shown how what Warden does is significantly different.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warden_(software)

Ok. Look at it from the other end. Where does it says it tracks everything else on your computer, like EA are explicitly stating?

I guess we'll never agree here. I will concede I do have some level of intrinsic trust for Valve. I will say, if they ever pull something like this, I will uninstall steam, however much I've already spent on games on there.

[I should also add, I do not have Warden installed, neither have I ever installed it.]

 

[HDgaming42]

This is an excellent and relevant article: http://chronicle.com/article/Why-Privacy-Matters-Even-if/127461/

Thanks for that. Great read. I've bookmarked it as I'm sure I'll be sending others that way in the future.

I enjoyed this snippet:

The Canadian privacy expert David Flaherty expresses a similar idea when he argues: "There is no sentient human being in the Western world who has little or no regard for his or her personal privacy; those who would attempt such claims cannot withstand even a few minutes' questioning about intimate aspects of their lives without capitulating to the intrusiveness of certain subject matters."

Don't agree? Read the whole article...