Understanding the base mechanics was never my problem with the Souls games. It was just figuring out how to use those mechanics to get past certain parts. How the fuck was I supposed to know theOr that you can summon NPC assistance when in body form?Taurus Demon is weak to fire? Or that you can get a cool sword by shooting the red dragon's tail?
Look, a lot of the reason people like the Souls games in the first place is because they are some of the only games left that let you discover things on your own and say "Oh man I didn't know that!" Features and mechanics feel way cooler when the game doesn't blurt them out to you.
Understanding the base mechanics was never my problem with the Souls games. It was just figuring out how to use those mechanics to get past certain parts. How the fuck was I supposed to know theOr that you can summon NPC assistance when in body form?Taurus Demon is weak to fire? Or that you can get a cool sword by shooting the red dragon's tail?
But those are classic examples of how gameplay experimentation rewards players. It'd be awful if the game hinted to you about the sword in your example, RedSwirl :/
There's no way they'd go that far.
1: These mechanics seem strange. Perhaps I should investigate and ask my knowledgeable friends on the Internet for advice before I commit any irreversible actions.
I never looked up anything on either game until after I was done. I did miss some content, but not a whole lot.
Your first paragraph contradicts your second. The Taurus Demon's weakness literally doesn't matter. The cool sword is a secret, and you'd think to try it when you fight the belltower boss and notice that cutting off it's tail gives you a weapon, and thinking back to seeing another tail previously. Lastly, you realize you can summon in body form when you go in body form to kindle a bonfire and see summon signs. All this stuff is either straight forward, irrelevant, or purposefully a secret with a hint. These things are this way for a reason, and the game would lose a lot imo to change that.
That kind of thing is not good game design. You shouldn't need forum buddies or a wiki to understand aspects of the game. I think this is the kind of thing the director of the game was talking about.
I never even noticed cutting off the bell tower bosses' tails gave you weapons.
I vehemently disagree. You don't NEED to read wiki's to understand dark souls so that's not a sound criticism anyway. What you could say is that there will be players that need outside help in order to beat the game or to understand the majority of the game. But! I content that that is actually good game design. Not having that be the case means that the game must be understandable and beatable by everyone; which just leads to a bland, boring design who's focus is to think lowly of the intelligence of the player.
And that's okay! Not everyone should notice everything and have the same things happen to them. Having the game be complex and varied enough to allow epiphany moments in the player is a good thing!
I vehemently disagree. You don't NEED to read wiki's to understand dark souls so that's not a sound criticism anyway. What you could say is that there will be players that need outside help in order to beat the game or to understand the majority of the game. But! I content that that is actually good game design. Not having that be the case means that the game must be understandable and beatable by everyone; which just leads to a bland, boring design who's focus is to think lowly of the intelligence of the player.
Understanding the base mechanics was never my problem with the Souls games. It was just figuring out how to use those mechanics to get past certain parts. How the fuck was I supposed to know theOr that you can summon NPC assistance when in body form?Taurus Demon is weak to fire? Or that you can get a cool sword by shooting the red dragon's tail?
Now as to how to make that shit more straightforward, I just hope they don't do it in the form of pop-ups and loading screen hints. That shit is what I hate most about this console generation -- games teaching players in tacky ways that talk down to the audience. I thought Demon's Souls had one of the best tutorial levels this gen, since it works exactly how a normal level works. The nexus and tutorial level even had all those built-in messages giving tips the same way other players give you tips. I don't remember seeing an area like that in Dark Souls (other than its own tutorial). I just hope they find a way to make the game more straightforward that actually feels properly integrated within the world. What happened to the days when in old school RPGs you could just read signs or talk to characters that would give you gameplay tips?
Look, a lot of the reason people like the Souls games in the first place is because they are some of the only games left that let you discover things on your own and say "Oh man I didn't know that!" Features and mechanics feel way cooler when the game doesn't blurt them out to you. I'm trying to go through my second Dark Souls file with zero Wiki assistance, and it'd be nice if Dark Souls II made that easier.
I disagree. Making that information more esoteric does nothing good for anyone. I'm not saying to make the game more "direct" in the sense that a guy explicitly tells you, but systems like World Tendency and covenants in the past have not been very intuitive, having effects so specific that you'll be running to the Internet every two seconds for comprehension.
I vehemently disagree. You don't NEED to read wiki's to understand dark souls so that's not a sound criticism anyway. What you could say is that there will be players that need outside help in order to beat the game or to understand the majority of the game. But! I content that that is actually good game design. Not having that be the case means that the game must be understandable and beatable by everyone; which just leads to a bland, boring design who's focus is to think lowly of the intelligence of the player.
And that's okay! Not everyone should notice everything and have the same things happen to them. Having the game be complex and varied enough to allow epiphany moments in the player is a good thing!
can you name one thing about dark souls which would be impossible to find out without reading a wiki?
It seems illogical to me that the systems are impenetrable if there are answers on the internet. Wikis don't write themselves.
As has been mentioned, MMOs do this sort of thing a lot, and it leads to a lot of community involvement. People simulating and theorycrafting and what-not, sharing that with others, people testing things in-game. Maybe it's too much of a metagame to some, and I can certainly understand why people might want to play the games as purely single player experiences.
Overall, I'm all for less obfuscating of basic systems because I don't feel it would have a direct negative effect on that sort of community, and at the same time it should benefit everyone. People thought WoW would ruin MMO communities because grouping wasn't required to level. Obviously we're not comparing like things here, but my point is just that the community will find other things to dig deeper into.
And for those who wish not to see it, why not the ability to turn such info off?
I still think the greatest danger here is "accessibility" meaning an overabundance of explosions or exposition.
Like I said earlier, World Tendencies (which, hey, were removed for Dark Souls because the designers thought they weren't communicated well) and covenants are too important mechanics for a game like this to just brush it off. Yes, you can get through the game without knowledge of them, but it just always seemed strange to me how you really need to look it up elsewhere to figure this stuff out.
can you name one thing about dark souls which would be impossible to find out without reading a wiki?
I DO like to have the chance to play with/against other people though, not to mention that in my experience blatant hackers were the exception, not the norm. My biggest gripe was the invading just after going human, and even then my biggest non-hacking issue can be solved just by putting in a 5-10 minute grace period. Being invaded is your risk to summon people into your game, it shouldn't be something you have to take a chance on when IMMEDIATELY kindling. Or they should just let you kindle without being human, but it's still nice to not immediately get invaded (or for them to ATTEMPT to invade anyway) the second you turn human or in the case of Demon's Souls enter a stage.just play offline bro. always human. no (player) invasions. shit's great.
That's not an easy mode, those are training wheels. And just like training wheels you can't use it forever.Dark Souls already had easy mode. Drake Sword.
Like I said earlier, World Tendencies (which, hey, were removed for Dark Souls because the designers thought they weren't communicated well) and covenants are too important mechanics for a game like this to just brush it off. Yes, you can get through the game without knowledge of them, but it just always seemed strange to me how you really need to look it up elsewhere to figure this stuff out.
I DO like to have the chance to play with/against other people though, not to mention that in my experience blatant hackers were the exception, not the norm. My biggest gripe was the invading just after going human, and even then my biggest non-hacking issue can be solved just by putting in a 5-10 minute grace period. Being invaded is your risk to summon people into your game, it shouldn't be something you have to take a chance on when IMMEDIATELY kindling. Or they should just let you kindle without being human, but it's still nice to not immediately get invaded (or for them to ATTEMPT to invade anyway) the second you turn human or in the case of Demon's Souls enter a stage.
That's not an easy mode, those are training wheels. And just like training wheels you can't use it forever.
Moonlight Greatsword is decent for INT builds.The Drake Sword should have been better. Less damage at +0, slightly shorter range, much better once upgraded. Would love to have seen a real honest dragon weapon standby for multi-classes... All the other dragon weapons aren't terribly useful in that way.
Moonlight Greatsword is decent for INT builds.
how do they factor in what is right and wrong for everyone else?
Again, i'm sorry but people can't develop a game around your very peculiar psychological needs.
If they find a way to implement an easy mode that doesn't directly alter the "normal" experience, there is no (logical) reason to be against it.
The Drake Sword should have been better. Less damage at +0, slightly shorter range, much better once upgraded. Would love to have seen a real honest dragon weapon standby for multi-classes... All the other dragon weapons aren't terribly useful in that way.
Obsidian Greatsword.
The Drake Sword should have been better. Less damage at +0, slightly shorter range, much better once upgraded. Would love to have seen a real honest dragon weapon standby for multi-classes... All the other dragon weapons aren't terribly useful in that way.
Obsidian Greatsword.
black knight great axe... get up in there!
can you name one thing about dark souls which would be impossible to find out without reading a wiki?
Yeah, I actually really like this, still need to level up a decent amount to use it though... But I was sort of referring to weapons that were in the stock. But yeah, glad they had this in the DLC, my fav new weapon.
Not a dragon weapon. I used it a bunch back on PS3, didn't they nerf this a bit with the newer patch?
I'd say 99% of players would not be able to save Solaire, find Kaathe, or join Nito's covenant without a wiki.
Also, getting all the treasures in the great hollow (ALL of them) requires the patience of a god. I know most people gave the fuck up after the 10th fall to their death.
This is so amazingly accurate. Should be in the OP of every Dark Souls related thread.
haha, that is pretty accurate. trial-and-error gameplay is like that part in Limbo where you see a pressure switch on the floor and then jump to avoid it, and then two seconds later you see something else that also seems like a pressure switch on the floor, which looks exactly the same, but when you jump to avoid it like the one right before you get crushed because it's not a switch, the area right around it which looks nothing like a switch is the switch. That gameplay I don't like because it's just tricking the gamer, it's not really reliant on any particular skill except the ability not to learn from things the game teaches you five seconds before.
In Dark Souls, when you die, it's almost always your fault for not honing your skills or learning from past mistakes or whatever.
Well, Limbo (I personally loved the game) pretty much used trial and error as a narration technique to transport the player into the purgatory in which the boy's in. You're basically gruesomely killed and forced to go into scary and horrible places (and that spider) over and over again because you're in purgatory and are being punished, just like the boy is, and if you die, you just get to try again.
I thought it was pretty good use of mechanics and narrative, but I wouldn't use it as an example of the Souls series in the slightest.
It's actually very easy not to die all the time if you familiarize yourself with the mechanics and just act cautious. It gets harder when the game puts you out of your comfort zone, with bosses and multiple enemies, etc.
haha, that is pretty accurate. trial-and-error gameplay is like that part in Limbo where you see a pressure switch on the floor and then jump to avoid it, and then two seconds later you see something else that also seems like a pressure switch on the floor, which looks exactly the same, but when you jump to avoid it like the one right before you get crushed because it's not a switch, the area right around it which looks nothing like a switch is the switch. That gameplay I don't like because it's just tricking the gamer, it's not really reliant on any particular skill except the ability not to learn from things the game teaches you five seconds before.
In Dark Souls, when you die, it's almost always your fault for not honing your skills or learning from past mistakes or whatever.
How the fuck was I supposed to know theTaurus Demon is weak to fire? Or that you can get a cool sword by shooting the red dragon's tail?
I'd say 99% of players would not be able to save Solaire, find Kaathe, or join Nito's covenant without a wiki.
Understanding the base mechanics was never my problem with the Souls games. It was just figuring out how to use those mechanics to get past certain parts. How the fuck was I supposed to know theTaurus Demon is weak to fire?
Dark Souls already had easy mode. Drake Sword.