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[Open Source]

Skydiving is not a physical product.

Neither is software, especially software designed to provide an entertainment experience.

 

[Orca]

I think anybody who buys used games almost exclusively should really think about it the next time they complain when their favorite developer get shut down or a game doesn't get a sequel due to a lack of sales.

I mean yeah the industry could run a lot leaner. Games could be made without hundred million dollar marketing budgets and still sell, and they could try more innovation instead of just chasing Call of Duty, but if your money is supporting GameStop's bottom line and not the developers then who should you really blame?

 

[sechsterangriff]

Neither is software.

When it's attached to a physical disc, you can bet that for people in the real world it is.
And there are places in this world were licences are resalable too..

 

[Shalashaska]

Inflated budgets have killed a lot of smaller developers so I don't need to support that, no. I'm happy to support Indie developers on PC, the big publishing giants on console? Not so much.

 

[GQman2121]

Neither is software, especially software designed to provide an entertainment experience.

Bullshit. If your "entertainment experience" is literally in my hands, I can do as I please with it within the laws of the land.

 

[CrimsonCrescendo]

The industry is not making a ton of money. A select few, mostly in social and mobile, are. The industry itself is in flames, particularly on the retail side. The reason all the DLC/online pass/consumables/etc. stuff is proliferating in the console business is that dev/pubs are compensating for used games. The reason that budgets are out of hand is that games with smaller budgets died off because of "lol, looks like crap" or "doesn't have multiplayer that will keep me entertained for 3 months, trading it in."

It's funny to see all the armchair executives here talking about how publishers should get their fiscal houses in order instead of complaining about used games, and then complaining about the measures those publishers take to do exactly that.

You can't have everything. It's just not a sustainable model. Either you get games that don't look so good, don't have so many features, etc. (or perhaps produced by a sweatshop dev in Russia), or you give up used games, or you get your games served with all the extra monetization crap slathered on top.

Of the three, I'll gladly give up used games instead of losing game quality or having game designs twisted into these foul monetization abominations to compensate. That's why I game almost exclusively on Steam these days, with console game purchases consisting entirely of digital stuff.

I appreciate the issues developers are facing, but the way the "used games are bad" message is getting across is terrible. Only a few years ago I remember used games being equated to piracy and that anyone who buys used games is a pirate. Now, I'm sure this was taken out of context by many, but that's still what I remember being spread around. You've got polarizing personalities like Cliffy B. running their mouth and not helping things. You've got Microsoft dropping bomb shell after bomb shell of draconian measures on consumers left and right (only for them to now backtrack on several of them). You've got people (It was Patcher, Cliffy, or Jaffe... I don't remember which) just making a blanket statement of "You just don't understand (regarding people on Neogaf)". And we also keep getting conflicting reports of "The industry is doomed" and "The industry is completely fine". So when someone level headed actually attempts to give an insight into the industry, everyone (me included) has a knee-jerk reaction to deny everything and start yelling.

The industry isn't helping itself.

 

[Green Yoshi]

While true, but Gamestop is the one that's taking the big cut out of the pie.

In Germany their used games are often more expensive then not pre-owned games at online stores. Especially if you import your games from UK, you save a lot of money.

There is just no good reason to pay 55€ for an used game at Gamestop.

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

Neither is software, especially software designed to provide an entertainment experience.

A physical copy of a game is a physical product.

 

[Open Source]

How about a thought experiment:

Let's say piracy becomes legal in your country. You can now acquire games at essentially no cost, legally.

Game creators say that doing so, despite its legality, will harm their industry. Your response is that no, they simply need to adapt and find a way to balance their books.

Then your gaming menu rapidly turns into nothing but f2p shitburgers with some indie on the side.

Now, are you are confused and angry at these greedy, stupid publishers who aren't smart enough to run their companies properly and provide you with the kind of entertainment you want? Do you blame them for the situation?

(And no, I am not saying used games are equivalent to piracy. If that's what you got out of this, then you need to sharpen your critical thinking skills.)

 

[railGUN]

Of the three, I'll gladly give up used games instead of losing game quality or having game designs twisted into these foul monetization abominations to compensate. That's why I game almost exclusively on Steam these days, with console game purchases consisting entirely of digital stuff.

To me, abolishing the ability to buy and sell used games is the foulest monetization abomination to compensate.

 

[Figboy79]

I do my part. I buy new 99.9% of the time. The only time I buy used now a days is when I absolutely can't find a new copy of the game through any channels, or it's a game that I've already purchased before, got rid of for some reason, and am purchasing a second time. I generally don't sell or trade in my games, however, because I like having a game collection.

Choice is very important to me. I like the choice to buy retail. I like the choice to buy digital. As I've stated before, PS+ has given me a lot of incentives to go digital by offering free games, or games at such a great discount that I can't help but dip into the digital download pool. Some games, I just want to own physically. That's the long and short of it. Don't try and force me into a digital future. You'll only ensure that I don't purchase your product at all, and that's costing you about the same as me purchasing used.

 

[Vilam]

This guy seems to share a lot of the same feelings I have... Honestly, used game buyers are worse than piracy in one tangible way. I don't believe the vast majority of people who pirate ever have any intention of buying a game in the first place; they don't matter to me. But used game buyers matter. They're willing to spend their money on a game, but they're blatantly saying... $5 is the line I'm willing to take between supporting a hobby I love and supporting the hard working devs who bring me these experiences, or just handing my money over in its entirety to Gamestop. If you care about video games, you buy the new copy so that you can keep getting great games in the future because studios are better able to keep their doors open.

 

[Open Source]

I appreciate the issues developers are facing, but the way the "used games are bad" message is getting across is terrible. Only a few years ago I remember used games being equated to piracy and that anyone who buys used games is a pirate. Now, I'm sure this was taken out of context by many, but that's still what I remember being spread around. You've got polarizing personalities like Cliffy B. running their mouth and not helping things. You've got Microsoft dropping bomb shell after bomb shell of draconian measures on consumers left and right (only for them to now backtrack on several of them). You've got people (It was Patcher, Cliffy, or Jaffe... I don't remember which) just making a blanket statement of "You just don't understand (regarding people on Neogaf)". And we also keep getting conflicting reports of "The industry is doomed" and "The industry is completely fine". So when someone level headed actually attempts to give an insight into the industry, everyone (me included) has a knee-jerk reaction to deny everything and start yelling.

The industry isn't helping itself.

It's really not hard to see the actual truth. Follow the money - investment, that is. How many new independent or publisher-opened studios making retail console games? How much growth in existing studios? Now, how many opening in or moving to the digital space?

 

[Pavaloo]

The industry is not making a ton of money. A select few, mostly in social and mobile, are. The industry itself is in flames, particularly on the retail side. The reason all the DLC/online pass/consumables/etc. stuff is proliferating in the console business is that dev/pubs are compensating for used games. The reason that budgets are out of hand is that games with smaller budgets died off because of "lol, looks like crap" or "doesn't have multiplayer that will keep me entertained for 3 months, trading it in."

It's funny to see all the armchair executives here talking about how publishers should get their fiscal houses in order instead of complaining about used games, and then complaining about the measures those publishers take to do exactly that.

You can't have everything. It's just not a sustainable model. Either you get games that don't look so good, don't have so many features, etc. (or perhaps produced by a sweatshop dev in Russia), or you give up used games, or you get your games served with all the extra monetization crap slathered on top.

Of the three, I'll gladly give up used games instead of losing game quality or having game designs twisted into these foul monetization abominations to compensate. That's why I game almost exclusively on Steam these days, with console game purchases consisting entirely of digital stuff.

Thank you. I'm really tired of these "well look at these shitty dlc add-on packs, games don't even have content now" arguments. DLC is a direct result of the way the market is today.

 

[fabricated backlash]

How about a thought experiment:

Let's say piracy becomes legal in your country. You can now acquire games at essentially no cost, legally.

Game creators say that doing so, despite its legality, will harm their industry. Your response is that no, they simply need to adapt and find a way to balance their books.

Then your gaming menu rapidly turns into nothing but f2p shitburgers with some indie on the side.

Now, are you are confused and angry at these greedy, stupid publishers who aren't smart enough to run their companies properly and provide you with the kind of entertainment you want? Do you blame them for the situation?

(And no, I am not saying used games are equivalent to piracy. If that's what you got out of this, then you need to sharpen your critical thinking skills.)

Do you seriously equate the unlicensed copying of games with used games? Seriously?

This is just getting sad at this point. Because despite your declaration at the bottom, that's exactly what you insinuated... or you seriously need to work on articulating your thoughts.

For one, if any state would legalize piracy, it wouldn't be piracy to begin with. But it would be a severe breach of established copyright agreements, and would make it impossible for any creative business that can't rely on live performances to exist.
So you'd not have a market there to begin with.

Used products however have to have been bought at least once. The fact that used games are being sold while new ones eventually stop is just the normal part of any products market life. Why should games be excluded from this? Games aren't special.

 

[Biker19]

Oh like movies, music, books, etc?

Fuck off. That argument is so weak, yet it keeps coming up.

I laughed at that sentence, too. Amen, brother.

 

[Open Source]

When it's attached to a physical disc, you can bet that for people in the real world it is.
And there are places in this world were licences are resalable too..

The disc itself has very little value, especially for those who traffic heavily in used games. It is the entertainment experience that is carried by that medium that they value.

 

[Choke on the Magic]

How about a thought experiment:

Let's say piracy becomes legal in your country. You can now acquire games at essentially no cost, legally.

Game creators say that doing so, despite its legality, will harm their industry. Your response is that no, they simply need to adapt and find a way to balance their books.

Then your gaming menu rapidly turns into nothing but f2p shitburgers with some indie on the side.

Now, are you are confused and angry at these greedy, stupid publishers who aren't smart enough to run their companies properly and provide you with the kind of entertainment you want? Do you blame them for the situation?

(And no, I am not saying used games are equivalent to piracy. If that's what you got out of this, then you need to sharpen your critical thinking skills.)

So you admit that used games are not equivalent to piracy and yet it's the basis for you're arguement? Take you're own advice those critical thinking skills.

 

[Cerebral Assassin]

I feel like this is why we don't get "B" games anymore (like B movies if that makes sense). The developer PROBABLY would've stayed afloat with trickling sales throughout the whole year when someone saw a random copy of Mercenaries 2 with a cool cover and decided to pick it up since it's cheap. Wait what's that? $19.99 new and $12.99 used? SOLD USED!

This is not how retail works.

Reggie is the only one I've seen in the industry speak any sense on this matter.

Surprisingly Bobby"I would love to put the price of games up" Kotick has spoken out against harming used games sales in the past:

"We can do some of these things that EA and others have done, but we actually don't think its in the best interest of the gamer, and so we've chosen not to," We're not doing anything to suppress used games today.

"What we've tried to do is to really support our audiences and, you know, when you talk to players, they like the idea of having a currency."

"They like the idea of being able to take a game they no longer want to play and use it to get a credit to buy new games."

"The best way to keep people engaged in your game experience is keep giving them more great content. As business models evolve, as the way you distribute content evolves, as the ability to do things online changes in terms of pricing or trial or sample," he said.

"I think we've definitely always been out in front of the rest of our competitors. But I think you always need to be sensitive to that relationship and not crossing the line to a place where the customer feels like they have been taken advantage of."

 

[sechsterangriff]

How about a thought experiment:

Let's say piracy becomes legal in your country. You can now acquire games at essentially no cost, legally.

Game creators say that doing so, despite its legality, will harm their industry. Your response is that no, they simply need to adapt and find a way to balance their books.

Then your gaming menu rapidly turns into nothing but f2p shitburgers with some indie on the side.

Now, are you are confused and angry at these greedy, stupid publishers who aren't smart enough to run their companies properly and provide you with the kind of entertainment you want? Do you blame them for the situation?

(And no, I am not saying used games are equivalent to piracy. If that's what you got out of this, then you need to sharpen your critical thinking skills.)

What does your scenario have to do with... anything?
This is not about "legallity", it's about developers and publishers not adapting to a market that happens to include a form of business that ALWAYS existed and that they are now are blaming for all their problems.

 

[J10]

This guy seems to share a lot of the same feelings I have... Honestly, used game buyers are worse than piracy in one tangible way. I don't believe the vast majority of people who pirate ever have any intention of buying a game in the first place; they don't matter to me. But used game buyers matter. They're willing to spend their money on a game, but they're blatantly saying... $5 is the line I'm willing to take between supporting a hobby I love and supporting the hard working devs who bring me these experiences, or just handing my money over in its entirety to Gamestop. If you care about video games, you buy the new copy so that you can keep getting great games in the future because studios are better able to keep their doors open.

In this paragraph you've stated that paying money for goods is in some way worse than stealing goods.

 

[Open Source]

Do you seriously equate the unlicensed copying of games with used games? Seriously?

This is just getting sad at this point.

No, I compared the near-total loss of revenue with the partial loss of revenue and suggested that the partial loss of revenue will have some fraction of the same consequences as the total loss of revenue.

See the last sentence in the post you quoted, written especially for people such as yourself.

What does your scenario have to do with... anything?
This is not about "legallity", it's about developers and publishers not adapting to a form of business that ALWAYS existed.

It may have always existed, but it has never been as large a percentage of total game sales as it is now.

 

[inky]

Of the three, I'll gladly give up used games instead of losing game quality or having game designs twisted into these foul monetization abominations to compensate. That's why I game almost exclusively on Steam these days, with console game purchases consisting entirely of digital stuff.

But those still happen all the time in the greener pastures of PC & mobile games, where no used games exist.

I'm sorry, but developers and publishers wouldn't give up these practices just because there are no more used games. Please don't make it sound like they would.

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

The disc itself has very little value, especially for those who traffic heavily in used games. It is the entertainment experience that is carried by that medium that they value.

The disc is the game, the two cannot be separated. It's like saying "the paper in that book is worthless, it's the words that matter".

Further, when you buy a physical copy of the game, you own that copy and can do with it as you please short of making illegal copies. You need the copyright to make copies. Not owning the copyright doesn't take away your consumer rights though.

 

[avaya]

The games industry is not important.

It has no national security value. If it were to disappear zero fucks would be given.

If you can't make money today you need to change your business model. The consumer owes you jack shit.

 

[Open Source]

But those still happen all the time in the greener pastures of PC & mobile games, where no used games exist.

I'm sorry, but developers and publishers wouldn't give up these practices just because there are no more used games. Please don't make it sound like they would.

It does and it doesn't. There are games that do it, but it is hardly necessary to survive as it is with many retail games. Since games can exist without it, they do. And I play them.

 

[inky]

It does and it doesn't. There are games that do it, but it is hardly necessary to survive as it is with many retail games. Since games can exist without it, they do. And I play them.

And a lot of games can exist with a used games market, and I play them too. All the time.

 

[Open Source]

The disc is the game, the two cannot be separated. It's like saying "the paper in that book is worthless, it's the words that matter".

They can be and are separated.

And that saying is true.

 

[fabricated backlash]

No, I compared the near-total loss of revenue with the partial loss of revenue and suggested that the partial loss of revenue will have some fraction of the same consequences as the total loss of revenue.

See the last sentence in the post you quoted, written especially for people such as yourself.

Refer to my edited post. Your thought experiment fails at the thought, because you barely put any in it.

 

[Open Source]

And a lot of games can exist with a used games market, and I play them too. All the time.

And many games that cannot exist there exist on digital markets. And you don't play them.

 

[BurnOutBrighter]

One copy = one sale.

Stop trying to make money off things you've already made money from.

 

[inky]

And many games that cannot exist there exist on digital markets. And you don't play them.

How would you know what I play or don't play? If it was as simple as used games being the cause for those designs decisions, they wouldn't exist, yet they do.

 

[akira28]

Digital is a blessing until >1GB, then it's a curse.

The games industry is not important.

It has no national security value. If it were to disappear zero fucks would be given.

If you can't make money today you need to change your business model. The consumer owes you jack shit.

I'm kind of curious. Maybe a game industry crash would be a good thing. I mean...they came back better than ever before. Maybe they need to die before they can overcome death.

 

[Pavaloo]

The market life of games these days is like two weeks now though, I'm already being pushed to trade in TLOU to get even more money back for the next purchase.

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

They can be and are separated.

And that saying is true.

No, you cannot separate the data from the disc on that copy. There may be other ways to get the data but that isn't the same as erasing the data on a pressed disc and preserving it elsewhere. The disc is the game so long as the data is useable.

In short, there is no "cut and paste" function for a physical disc.

 

[fabricated backlash]

How would you know what I play or don't play?

Obviously you're to blame there. it's your obligation after all to compensate for faulty business practices.

 

[Divvy]

Thank you. I'm really tired of these "well look at these shitty dlc add-on packs, games don't even have content now" arguments. DLC is a direct result of the way the market is today.

Games having out of control budgets and poor management is the disease. Everything else (DLC, F2P, shitty content value, etc...) is a symptom of that disease. Getting rid of used game sales does nothing to treat that disease.

 

[sechsterangriff]

It may have always existed, but it has never been as large a percentage of total game sales as it is now.

The videogames industry is just a segment of the entertainment industry.
Other segments of the entertainment industry also had do deal with the same issue and they adapted. I leave at that.

Also, there's no way to argue that ending used game sales would suddenly end the problem of too many oversized budget games. It may delay the problem, but I bet budgets eventually would continue to grow exponentially. I wonder what other thing would be used as a scape goat then...

 

[MaddenNFL64]

One copy = one sale.

Stop trying to make money off things you've already made money from.

"Lost sales, and its as bad as piracy! Support us by buying all our shit at MSRP or you're the devil!"

 

[Etnos]

And the problem is....?

The problem is you are not supporting the people making the product you enjoy. I think there is a justification for modest income people to go pre-own, for some people it is the only way to experience the games.

In the other hand, your comment... kinda just make you look like ass.

 

[Pavaloo]

Games having out of control budgets and poor management is the disease. Everything else (DLC, F2P, shitty content value, etc...) is a symptom of that disease. Getting rid of used game sales does nothing to treat that disease.

You don't think DLC is a result of getting some sort of transaction to the publisher/developer because none was made when the player got the game? I've seen devs report about seeing the numbers of players online vs the copies they actually sold, they usually say it's significant.

 

[Choke on the Magic]

The problem is you are not supporting the people making the product you enjoy. I think there is a justification for modest income people to go pre-own, for some people it is the only way to experience the games.

In the other hand, your comment... kinda just make you look like ass.

You're really changing hearts and minds with your post.

 

[Open Source]

Refer to my edited post. Your thought experiment fails at the thought, because you barely put any in it.

I referred to it and still don't see any sign that you understand what I was saying. I am most certainly not arguing for any special legal rights for games over books and movies.

On a side note, and rather unrelated to my post, it seems that you are arguing that the market for books and movies is healthy. Books are roughly equivalent to indie games in terms of the amount of effort needed to produce one. If you are happy with everything being indie games, produced by a single author and published by a small group, then there's no problem with the availability of used games. However, I personally do not want the game industry to be like the book industry.

Movies - at least in terms of retail - are fucked. If movies had to get by on retail product, they would be dead.

 

[sechsterangriff]

I'm kind of curious. Maybe a game industry crash would be a good thing. I mean...they came back better than ever before. Maybe they need to die before they can overcome death.

Don't worry, some big publishers are already heading that way.
Even if used sales were somehow eliminated and we moved to a digital only model, with current business practices budgets will just continue to grow and grow until it's just not sustainable any more.

 

[Nevasleep]

I don't understand how used games can be blamed for the industry failing.
What percentage of new game sales are used games? And then how many trade-ins/sales haven't been put towards new games?

 

[Vilam]

In this paragraph you've stated that paying money for goods is in some way worse than stealing goods.

Glad to see you possess basic reading comprehension. Have a point you'd like to make?

One of those groups of people is much closer to being a customer of mine; they're the ones I care about reaching. They've shown they're willing to pay for a good experience, so why not help support those that actually made that experience?

Pirates are going to pirate, they don't concern me.

 

[fabricated backlash]

The market life of games these days is like two weeks now though, I'm already being pushed to trade in TLOU to get even more money back for the next purchase.

It's only true for certain games. Evergreens exist, but the way most of the industry operates it would put sustainability over short time gains and that's not appealing to most investors.

Sony is already exploring secondary shelf lives for games via PSN+ or free to play MP versions of games that they released before. Instead of complaining they actually try to get away from the front loaded model and try to create more sources of income for longer periods of time.

It's not the consumers fault that the industry build its growth around front loaded money making, instead of sustainable income.

 

[Etnos]

You're really changing hearts and minds with your post.

-I think what MS was doing is bullshit, an excuse to take even more control over costumers.
-I would like to think there is more than utter selfishness and myopic short term vision to the whole Anti-DRM movement.
-I would like to think there was more substance to public opinion that a bunch of selfish cheap pricks that want to save a few bucks every time they buy a video game

Probe me wrong please.

 

[derfybzh]

I never buy used game because paying 5 euros less is meaningless for me. 5 euros is half of a Mac Donald, and I don't support robbery from big stores chains that have killed true games shops from my youth.

 

[Open Source]

No, you cannot separate the data from the disc on that copy. There may be other ways to get the data but that isn't the same as erasing the data on a pressed disc and preserving it elsewhere. The disc is the game so long as the data is useable.

In short, there is no "cut and paste" function for a physical disc.

You're talking about something else. (and a disc with software but no license has no monetary value, either, but like I said, that is a different subject)

The value of the game comes from the experience provided by the software. The software does not require a disc to run. It can be contained on many different media and licensed for use in many different ways.

The reason people pay money for a game is in most cases (aside from collecting, etc.) the experience they will get by using the software. True or false?

Fuck.