People who exercise their rights that have existed for a long time are entitled. People who want to establish that they deserve something for nothing are not? That doesn't make sense.
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EDGE: A dev view on preowned: why game players must support their hobby
- Thread starter Dabanton
- Start date
GrotesqueBeauty
Banned
Adhere to development budget and make games people want to keep. Problem solved. 
I believe in being a conscientious consumer and supporting the types of games I want to see more of, but it's pretty obvious that used game sales are an easy scapegoat for an industry that doesn't understand how to curb its own excesses.
I believe in being a conscientious consumer and supporting the types of games I want to see more of, but it's pretty obvious that used game sales are an easy scapegoat for an industry that doesn't understand how to curb its own excesses.
That you would use the word "entitled" in the pejorative sense makes me instantly want to ignore anything you say, but I will indulge you this once.
Do you buy everything new? New cars, new houses, new books, new movies, new furniture? Do you rent your home? Do you swap music with friends? Have you ever done someone a professional favour, such as painting their house or fixing their bike? If you answered yes to any of these questions, you might have harmed someone in a legitimate profession!
This isn't a matter of being able to afford it or not. I could buy an XBone new once a month, every month. But I have the choice as of right now as of what I do with my media. I can keep it, resell it, give it away. That's my choice, and any media company that wants to change that in order to satisfy their broken business model is the entitled one, not me. They aren't entitled to my money.
TheSpoiler
Member
Perfectly put, but expect a stream of babble in response.
If I like a game enough, I will keep it. Some games don't reach that level, but I'll still keep them for longer. Bayonetta is an example of the first, as that title has so much content I'll never sell it.
Offer me a valid, helpful-to-everyone sort of reason to keep the games you make and I'll keep them. At the very least, I won't rush to sell shorter, empty games if there's some meat on those bones.
VanquishUK
Member
We need more money!
TheSpoiler
Member
How are we suppose to put up those annoying banner ads all over your town without funds??
So essentially, instead of buying some games new and some games used, you'd rather those people bought no games at all?
How is that good for the industry?
Don't make the assumption that the industry has fully thought this one through.
It's ridiculous how entitled to my money developers and publishers think they are. What are we to do with our games once we've finished with them? Even if I only buy new games and then trade games in for credit to buy more new games sombody has to buy those used games right? Publishers and developers should offer me a trade in credit if I mail back my games to them then, because i don't want to keep the 100+ games I can potentially acquire during a console generation. Especially since they don't want me trading them in to Gamestop/Bestbuy etc.
Fine children and people without jobs shouldn't play games anymore, people who make minimum wage or college students who just don't have the money to spare shouldn't play games either. I mean they should be studying anyway. People who just had a new born or got married and can't really afford much luxuries shouldn't play games either. So it's better to alienate potential customers? I got you.
In other hobbies there are people who buy used parts, trade cards, buy from a thrift store or buy on sale. If I like gaming, but can't afford to buy every game under the sun new, who are you to tell me that I should find another hobby?
RoboGeorgeForeman
Banned
I find it amusing that these same companies who often scheme to squeeze as much money as possible out of their consumers, are asking us to view them as a friend or loved one whom we must go out of our way to support in their time of need.
Don't do me any favors please. I do buy everything new. I don't own a house, I rent an apartment. If you are buying a product from a media company, they are most certainly entitled to your money.
I'm not saying that. I think used games do have a place but not being sold used the day after they are released (or the same day, in some cases). I'll buy a game new every time if it's available. The only time I've bought used is when they aren't being sold new any more. Places like Gamestop have abused used game selling to the point where we have all these issues. And like anything that gets abused, it will get taken away sooner or later.
Actually, if you are buying their products, developers and publishers ARE entitled to your money. They put all the work into it and deserve to be compensated. Judging from the attitude of your post, I'd say you'd be pretty upset too if you made a game and weren't getting compensated due to used sales.
People aren't potential customers if companies aren't going to make money from them. Things like being married and having a newborn are choices people make and its common knowledge that there are a lot of costs involved in marriage and raising a family. They weren't forced into it.
If you can't afford to buy a game new, maybe you need to wait until you can afford it. You don't NEED to have a game the second it comes out.
sechsterangriff
Member
I better stay away from this thread because I'm starting to get genuinely disgusted.
But what about property developers?
But they were compensated. On the original sale. The game is "used" because some one already bought it once. No other industry--and certainly no other entertainment medium--demands payment more than once on the same item purchased.
Hardly worth commenting on, except to note how patently offensive and elitist this atttude is. And I say this as someone with a great salary and the ability to buy everything new Day 1. But if people can find a cheaper way to buy it, more power to them and tough shit to those who don't believe in a free market.
It's in response to their war on fair trade, sharing, lending and reselling. They dont have the right to restrict fair use, and are rightly being called out on their bullshit.
Flakster99
Member
Haha, what an offensive, elitist thing to state.
I'm going to quote a poster from another thread that succinctly states how I feel about you and the companies you're arguing for.
Shelter is a necessity, gaming is not. Bad analogy.
I'm just giving my opinion on the issue. Not trying to be offensive or elitist. But you can call me names if it makes you feel better.
Youre still buying or paying for second hand products. There is no analogy in play here, only direct comparisons. Why is it ok to buy used in one area but not others?
How so? I'm renting from the person or company that OWNs the property, they are getting compensated. Renting an apartment or house isn't anything like buying a used game.
Or you could buy a new house or pay for one to be built. In the rental case, your money only goes to the person who paid for it to be built.
My argument doesn't hang on this comparison, so I'll make it simple. Second hand products are a key component of commerce in multiple markets. Used book stores, ebay for everything, amazon resellers, flea markets.
Sharing and lending to friends is another thing. It is a gateway to get people interested in one game they may not have heard of or been interested enough to buy. Then they have the opportunity to discover new developers and buy future games from them.
Your myopic vision of a games industry blocking used sales goes against common behaviour in every other industry. It is nonsensical, no matter how many developers complain about it. They are not special. Games are not special.
Pound_lb003
Member
Gosh... Can I favourite this post?
Totally beautiful, and something I'd love for this guy to read.
I'm well aware that buying used doesn't help the developers directly, though indirectly used game models help people better afford new games. I get annoyed when the discussion turns into " well, Gamestop is terrible so you have to stop renting games and selling some on ebay too. Also, pre-order our game at Gamestop for exclusive day-one content!"
Buying a used game for $55 instead of new at $60 is lame and i don't buy them. But $60 games are lame, if titles were cheaper at launch i'd buy them new before any used games were even available to be priced poorly at gamestop.
Buying a used game for $55 instead of new at $60 is lame and i don't buy them. But $60 games are lame, if titles were cheaper at launch i'd buy them new before any used games were even available to be priced poorly at gamestop.
Holy shit, I missed this. Great re-quote.
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
I always believe in purchasing new games. I want to support these guys as much as possible. The only times I buy used is if its a game I really don't know I will like or not. I never buy used just to be cheap though.
Let's say, hypothetically, you bought a shitty game with a half arsed version. Skyrim PS3, say. Bethesda squeezed out a stinker on that one, refused to admit it, lied about it pre-release, effectively committing fraud.
Would you, had you been burnt by them, ever consider buying one of their games new in future? I sure as shit wouldn't. I *might* only buy their next game used rather than take the risk on another dud.
missed this the first time around.
CambriaRising
Member
natkingcoleslaw
Neo Member
The feature elimination comes across as just vindictive and quite immature. It almost feels like them saying "fuck you. You deserved this." after being handed that massive beatdown by the gaming community.
I kind of see the point how used games available on day 2 (or even day 1) after launch would cannibalize new game sales which atm are the only source of revenue for devs. But this doesn't mean used games should be eliminated.
A simple 3-6 or so months moratorium on the sale of used games by "participating retailers" should be an adequate solution. All this means is, while I can't trade in a new game after a week for store credit, I'm still free to sell my 1 copy on ebay or to a friend. These large retailers with their massive distribution networks are more likely to affect new game sales than a bunch of gamers who need to find a buyer for their single copy.
So while, a hardware solution like what microsoft tried to impose with xbone is obviously stupid, not to mention expensive, the right way about this would have been to do the hard work of talking with retailers and have the required agreements in place rather than force us to be a part of their shenanigans.
I kind of see the point how used games available on day 2 (or even day 1) after launch would cannibalize new game sales which atm are the only source of revenue for devs. But this doesn't mean used games should be eliminated.
A simple 3-6 or so months moratorium on the sale of used games by "participating retailers" should be an adequate solution. All this means is, while I can't trade in a new game after a week for store credit, I'm still free to sell my 1 copy on ebay or to a friend. These large retailers with their massive distribution networks are more likely to affect new game sales than a bunch of gamers who need to find a buyer for their single copy.
So while, a hardware solution like what microsoft tried to impose with xbone is obviously stupid, not to mention expensive, the right way about this would have been to do the hard work of talking with retailers and have the required agreements in place rather than force us to be a part of their shenanigans.
I bought God of War 3 and FFXIII new, disliked both titles and sold them. I signed up for gamefly shortly after.
I bought Skyrim ps3 new, sold it several hours into the game when the framerate started to sink. I then bought Skyrim for Xbox 360 to finish the game, sold that too, and now i rarely buy new games anymore.
Cerebral Assassin
Member
What about the poor builders? What about the architects that designed the buildings? Those guys did all the work, why should a letting agent/owner be able to make money & not cut them a slice?
I like you. This is a very sensible idea.
Thanks for the reply, much appreciated. Also, unsurprising to see that response to bad games.
Attention game developers: this is what your half arsed efforts make people do. If you keep doing half arsed games and block people from trading them in, they will stop buying them in the first place.
SneakyStephan
Banned
See the thing is they aren't buying it from the media company, they're buying it from another person, it's the property of that person now, not the property of the media company.
I buy a car it's MY car, I'll do whatever the hell I want with it.
StumpoKAPOW indeed, nice post.
UnblessedSoul
Member
If developers feel strongly about preowned they should focus on PC development and release on steam DRM only.
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
You just outlined a perfect example of a consumer reaction to a product that doesn't deserve your money. I would definitely be wary of the next game by Bethesda and would likely pick it up used.
Firstly I'm happy for devs and publishers to take a cut of used game revenue, as soon as they operate a nationwide chain of brick and mortar that trades used games, with all the attendant risk, effort and investment. Until then, they can go fuck a puppy.
Second thought - imagine that all their wildest fantasies came true and both consoles had implemented pre-180 policies, letting them restrict and take a further cut of used game money. Also suppose that this wouldn't negatively affect their sales and it actually worked, giving them lots of lovely extra profits. At the end of this generation, aren't costs going to rise again? Will they need an even greater cut of used sales, because it became more expensive again to make games?
Bad developers and publishers will always spend more than they make. It was true for the NES and it is true now. Luckily, gaming is a diverse ecosystem, and the lumbering, top heavy dinosaurs will go extinct.
Second thought - imagine that all their wildest fantasies came true and both consoles had implemented pre-180 policies, letting them restrict and take a further cut of used game money. Also suppose that this wouldn't negatively affect their sales and it actually worked, giving them lots of lovely extra profits. At the end of this generation, aren't costs going to rise again? Will they need an even greater cut of used sales, because it became more expensive again to make games?
Bad developers and publishers will always spend more than they make. It was true for the NES and it is true now. Luckily, gaming is a diverse ecosystem, and the lumbering, top heavy dinosaurs will go extinct.
This just wouldn't work, as those 'participating' retailers would be pissed that all the 'non-participating' retailers are making money from a shitload of used game sales in those 3-6 months when they can't.
sono
Gold Member
This general topic of used games is getting somewhat repetitive.
When it comes right down to it, the world generally doesnt work the way that is being expressed. The price/value for what you get for goods is always a key factor to those purchasing it.
Bills/rent/insurance/price of power/food and mortgages to pay. World recession etc.
People have other things on their minds besides paying a games house what that house things it should get or in relation to how much that house spent to make the game.
Not ideal, but this is it.
When it comes right down to it, the world generally doesnt work the way that is being expressed. The price/value for what you get for goods is always a key factor to those purchasing it.
Bills/rent/insurance/price of power/food and mortgages to pay. World recession etc.
People have other things on their minds besides paying a games house what that house things it should get or in relation to how much that house spent to make the game.
Not ideal, but this is it.
The "buying used games day one" or week one for that matter has never held water and automatically tells me the person has no idea how the used game ecosystem works.You will get maybe1 or 2 used versions that will sneak in the first week. The way developers try to make it out you would think there are piles of them being pushed out. Heres a hint: used means someone had to buy it, play it and trade it in. Some exceptions but just that, exceptions. If there are multiple used copies of your game on the shelf after one week then maybe you should stop worrying about the used market and worry more about making a better fucking game that someone doesnt want to immediately trade in even after dropping $60 and taking a pricey loss.
Now how many of those day one preorders were onlybought because of trade ins, hmmmm? Continue to ignore that one since it doesnt meet your agenda but certainly gets you sales.
Now how many of those day one preorders were onlybought because of trade ins, hmmmm? Continue to ignore that one since it doesnt meet your agenda but certainly gets you sales.
Cry me a river, build a bridge...
You don't see movie studios, music houses, book publishers crying about this.
Well, if Gamestop cut used-games trades being returned toward new games, you'd see even less new games being purchased.
McEnroe once said, "YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS!!!"
Almost everyone on this board respects and rewards devs for jobs well done. It's when someone in the industry comes flat out telling you, a hardworking individual with responsibilities, how to spend your money on their product after it's already been sold, before it's sold AND even IF it gets sold.
Many devs/pubs have proven, the consumer is the last concern. With the wanting of restriction on fair use, free trade, no self reflection as to how to truly fix the broken business model. Make no mistake, they know their model is broken. Yet, they continue to do the same/wrong things and want and feel entitled the consumer should pay for it. On top of all these things, knowing gamers are a passionate/irrational bunch, they "appeal" to your emotions to sway you into their way of thinking. Like many posters have said, they don't truly care about the consumer.
These actions and insulting rhetoric, is entitlement to your wallet and VERY hostile to the consumer.
When any dev/pub does this and actual gamers/consumers agree, the first thing many on Neo-GAF refer to is Mr McEnroe.
I agree with this on principle, and I do usually go out of my way to purchase new copies of every game I own. I do this out of choice, not because I'm forced to.
I do support the concept of used games for the same reason why I myself have purchased games used in spite of my principles. It's because of a phenomenon called "going out of print". That will eventually be an alien phrase when everything goes digital, but for now, there are times when you simply cannot find a game new anymore. They've stopped making it, and no one carries it. So I find myself stalking the seedy underbelly of my nearest Gamestop to get a copy. Is that so bad? At this point, the developer is clearly not pushing for more profits, since they're no longer making any product to sell. Am I to feel bad that I didn't get around to playing the game when it was new? Or you could say I'm still supporting the developer years later by simply playing the game and saying "Yeah.. this game is pretty cool", and maybe using that experience to help push my purchase of that developer's next game on day one.
I do support the concept of used games for the same reason why I myself have purchased games used in spite of my principles. It's because of a phenomenon called "going out of print". That will eventually be an alien phrase when everything goes digital, but for now, there are times when you simply cannot find a game new anymore. They've stopped making it, and no one carries it. So I find myself stalking the seedy underbelly of my nearest Gamestop to get a copy. Is that so bad? At this point, the developer is clearly not pushing for more profits, since they're no longer making any product to sell. Am I to feel bad that I didn't get around to playing the game when it was new? Or you could say I'm still supporting the developer years later by simply playing the game and saying "Yeah.. this game is pretty cool", and maybe using that experience to help push my purchase of that developer's next game on day one.