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EGM Announces Switch to Letter Grading Reviews

I AM JOHN! said:
What does the lack of an "average" game in a genre matter?

Stop with the fucking fake math. It doesn't actually mean anything!

I'm just saying the word "average" is meaningless in this context, and shouldn't be used as a tiered quality descriptor. 5 or C may well be mediocre, but the "average" game right now isn't that bad in most genres you know?

But by all means, get snippy and defensive when someone is critical of the process and is pushing for further improvement. Many critics even used to be Gamestop managers, so they obviously already know everything!
 
FirstInHell said:
Isn't it kind of hypocritical how EGM will not disclose its magic formula for converting game scores to numbers, yet they lambaste Metacritic for not disclosing their secret formula?
Yes. Your point being?
 
FirstInHell said:
Isn't it kind of hypocritical how EGM will not disclose its magic formula for converting game scores to numbers, yet they lambaste Metacritic for not disclosing their secret formula?
No, because EGM is stating that they have no formula. EDIT: yes, I know they have that part about C = 5 in the press release, and I don't get it, because they have conflicting messages in their podcasts. Which is it, Ziff?

But please, continue to build ridiculous strawman arguments.
SaggyMonkey said:
I'm just saying the word "average" is meaningless in this context, and shouldn't be used as a tiered quality descriptor. 5 or C may well be mediocre, but the "average" game right now isn't that bad in most genres you know?
But why? I already posted the definition for average that everyone is using that says that average means "of or like standard quality," so why change it? Or would it just make more sense if we substituted in a synonym (run-of-the-mill, perhaps?).
But by all means, get snippy and defensive when someone is critical of the process and is pushing for further improvement. Many critics even used to be Gamestop managers, so they obviously already know everything!
Oh that's just because I feel like I'm going in circles. :(
 
It's just easier for us to have everyone move forward and accept the new ratings. But most people can figure it out. Our old "average" in the 5 range roughly translates to the C letter grades (with plusses and minuses), for example.

So basically: C=5

A= 8-10
B= 6-7
C=5
D=3-4
F=1-2

More A's at 8 and higher = more publishers happy = less Shoe editorials about being blacklisted. Everyone wins, rite?
 
AlphaSnake said:
You're fucking crazy. A pair of 34Ds, or even DDs is the most amazing thing you'll ever hold in your hands.


Well sure, but sometimes you have thing long term man. Big titties don't age well, unless they're fake. Then it's all good.:D
 
squicken said:
So basically: C=5

A= 8-10
B= 6-7
C=5
D=3-4
F=1-2

More A's at 8 and higher = more publishers happy = less Shoe editorials about being blacklisted. Everyone wins, rite?


More like


C = 5
C+ = 6
B = 7
B + = 8
A = 9
A + = 10

etc
 
FirstInHell said:
You and I seem to really be on the same wavelength. I do not mind listening to discussions about gaming as a topic, but it the way that people like Shane, Garnett, and N'Gai wax poetic about certain ideals just comes across as condescending and overly pretentious. It seems that they get on their soapbox with the "high horse of the month. This month, the high horse is NARRATIVE. This month it is going to be REVIEW SCORE INTEGRITY. I listen to a podcast because it is gamers like myself talking about games. I do not need to be educated by the likes of N'Gai as he drones on with his theories about what what equals good game design from a philosophical standpoint. He presents his opinions like they are so groundbreaking and epic when he is really not saying anything that is either relevant or no overly obvious.

I suggest dropping the podcast and not reading N'Gai then. In every medium and hobby there are those who at least try to discuss things on a much deeper level. There is an audience who enjoys that and loves to discuss it because it is relevant to their hobby and medium.

It just sounds like you don't care to dip that far into the medium.

I do kind of share your thoughts on N'Gai though. Well, not to the extent you say though. My problem with N'Gai is that his tastes are completely unknown. I don't know what he likes and dislikes so I can't gauge from what angle he's approaching the subject. That's why I tend to fall asleep when he goes on and on. I don't have a frame of reference for him. I mean, there his The Club diatribe where he didn't like 1up's scores, but even he made the game sound like crap. So...I don't know about him. :lol
 
Pffft! it's not "universally understood" at all, for my friends and I have never been graded in letters. I would understand if he said it's more American understood than universal, but he didn't.
 
My local newsagent used to sell an American games mag called Gamers Republic. It was pretty unique, and the first time I ever saw games rated in a Letter Graded way (this was late '99-early 2000). I loved the system back then, and I still do.

I wish UK mags could get into this. I hate the old focus on percentages and numbers. When I read mags where readers are writing in to moan that their favourite game got 3% less than it should have it really annoys me :-p

Now stuff like Metroid Prime 3 and Mario Galaxy could both get, say, S or A+ without any silly niggling over a couple of percent. It's amazing how seriously some people take a few little points.

But hey, I'm also a believer in scores out of 5 options: Terrible, Poor, Average, Good, Excellent. As far as I care that's all you need.
 
Kintaro said:
I suggest dropping the podcast and not reading N'Gai then. In every medium and hobby there are those who at least try to discuss things on a much deeper level. There is an audience who enjoys that and loves to discuss it because it is relevant to their hobby and medium.

It just sounds like you don't care to dip that far into the medium.

I do kind of share your thoughts on N'Gai though. Well, not to the extent you say though. My problem with N'Gai is that his tastes are completely unknown. I don't know what he likes and dislikes so I can't gauge from what angle he's approaching the subject. That's why I tend to fall asleep when he goes on and on. I don't have a frame of reference for him. I mean, there his The Club diatribe where he didn't like 1up's scores, but even he made the game sound like crap. So...I don't know about him. :lol

I actually stopped listening to the GDC podcast series once I found out he was going to be a regular. When N'Gai is on the show he just seems to talk about 50 times as much as everyone else on the podcast. This means:

-He feels that what he is saying is so riveting, it should trump anyone else's thoughts on the topic
-He is impressed with his viewpoint and likes to hear himself talk

This man's overinflated sense of importance could boil down to the fact that the crew (unjustifiably) treats him like a e-celeberity whenever he comes on the show.

N'Gai, do you think the average podcast listener gives a flying fuck while you brag about which high level game executive you had dinner with while discussing the state of the industry? Nobody is impressed, it is just obnoxious and annoying. Continue formulating your thesis on the state of the games industry elsewhere, your schitck is tired, obnoxious, and insulting. You are not an industry visionary. You write for videogames in Newsweek. I hold you in the same esteem as the guy who writes the game reviews for Maxim. The only reason why anyone talks to you is because there is a chance that they may catch some mainstream exposure. Chad Warden could write for Newsweek and people would be inviting him on podcasts and taking him out to dinner as well.
 
People are upset, because now they'll have to read the review text before they start complaining about how their favorite game got screwed by Ziff.
 
Scotch said:
You do know EGM is being sold outside the US, right? Not to mention 1UP which everyone in the world can read.

I know that the American readership probably dwarves everyone else, but saying it's universally understood is just not true.

I can buy UK magazines in Barnes and Nobles, that doesn't make the US their target readership. Just because you can buy the magazine doesn't mean it's aimed at you. Same for 1up. Yes the entire world can view 1up, but I'm pretty sure they write from an American perspective with American readers in mind.

The letter grades are universally understood within their target readership. If you are not within that target readership then too fucking bad. I guess they should stop using American slang or any other references to American culture, because some guy in Canada doesn't get it.
 
Superblatt said:
You're right that they went downhill in '02 or so, but they've always had three-man reviews. In fact, it's always been their ONE saving grace. Three people's opinions is three times better than one.

It's a fact.

You've probably already been corrected on this, but EGM used to have four-person reviews, and then they reduced that to three-person reviews. That's what the person you quoted meant by a reduction in quality ever since they went to three-person reviews.
 
antiloop said:
Personally I vote for no overall score. I am fine with graphics score, art score and so on though.

That would be beautiful.

Graphics: 9
Sound: 7
Gameplay: 8

Overall: *wall of text*

Metacritic would cry :lol
 
K.Jack said:
People are upset, because now they'll have to read the review text before they start complaining about how their favorite game got screwed by Ziff.

:lol :lol :lol

That still won't happen. As long as there's any score, it will be jumped to. Then compared to the text. Just to way things work. It's the nature of people AND gamers. If these sites hate it so much (and hate Metacritic so much), they can drop scores altogether (and stick with it).

Edit: Then again, gamers can't read for shit, so I guess you have to have a score. :lol
 
*applause* for the move to letter grades

AstroLad said:
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The question here really is: Does gaming really need all these intellectuals like Shane and Garnet pontificating about these "issues" from their ivory towers? Apparently the entire elitist Ziff Davis family thinks that the answer is "yes," but I for one do not appreciate being lectured to. If I want to go to a high-level philosophy class, I'll go back to college.

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

1UP Yours is to "high-level philosophy"

as

Transformers is to Citizen Kane

Personally I like N'Gai's takes. He's a little long-winded and I might tire of him if he were on every week, but someone who thinks a little deeper than what's on the surface a welcome thing in my world.
 
Why don't they just do something like this?

1) Awesome. Must own.
2) Worth checking out; possible buy.
3) Rental
4) Crap. Don't even bother.

I guess they have to feed the fanboys :lol
 
I think the letter scale is better, but this whole "fuck Metacritic" thing just seems pointless. Yeah, it's not a perfect science, but if I go on the site and see a game got a green score, I know it's got good reviews. If I see yellow, I know it got average ones. It's a useful tool. For new games I ignore it, like most reviews, but if I see a deal on a game I don't know much about there's nothing inaccurate about looking at Metacritic for some idea on how it's recieved.
 
Let me say this: I can completely understand the N'Gai hate. I can see it. I just like to hear that kind of stuff every now and then. Sometimes I feel like everything I read/hear about games is from the likes of Seanbaby. (Phil Collins + testicles = not that funny.)

It's just nice to know the other end of the spectrum is out there, too.
 
Great, switching because people are too stupid to understand a number scale.

A number scale is better, but maybe with a letter score the stupid people can understand it better (since they don't realize that a 7 is a good score. Hell, so people HERE think that a 8/10 is a bad score).
 
Why does grading skip the letter E? At least American grading or something, when I went to school there were no F's, an E was a fail.
 
I AM JOHN! said:
And so the world was ruined by fucking retards who don't understand that an average score is not the same fucking thing as a mathematical average!!

Ah well, I can cope with the letter score, I guess. :|

You know how you make the mathematical average and the game average be the same? grade out of five -- either five stars or, as EGM has done, with letter scores.

A 3 out of 5 always just LOOKS better to a reader than a 5 out of 10, even if the quality and intention of the review is the same. Put another way, a "C" is more informative than a 55 (or a 71) out of 100.
 
Isn't the thumbs up/down rating system actually trademarked by Ebert? or his show atleast?

I'd thought of a perfect rating system myself, instead of using % or X/10 or X/5 you'd throw games into plain catagories. There would be 5 of them but you wouldn't think of a game as being a 2/5 or whatever , each catagory would represent a range of quality because honestly who gives a shit whether a game is an 98 or a 91 or even an 89%.

Category 1- with a traditional rating system games scoring between 0 and 25% OR an F would get tossed in here, regardless of what percent they were on something like gamespot the simple fact is that they are horrible games that shouldn't be played ever except possibly as a joke.
IE-

Category 2- 25 to 50% OR a D on a traditional scale, these games are incredibly flawed in many ways but despite how much they get wrong the odd person may find the one or 2 aspects that were done well. In other words it could be enjoyable for a very small audience but it's a poor game by most standards.
IE- Lair for PS3

Category 3-50-70% OR a C Generally speaking the majority of games out there fall into catagory 3, these are enjoyable games that range from being pretty good to pretty "meh".
IE- 90% of all licensed video games(movies/tv/comicbooks etc)

Category 4- 70-85% OR a B ,this category is for good games. Laugh if you must but there are a number of games that many gamers would consider great additions to their library but hardly system sellers. This may be because of poor production values, features that were left out or perhaps even just bad english voices , who knows. CAT4 games are worth owning , just not for everyone. IE- Blue dragon, heavenly sword

Category 5- 85-100%/ A, and as the % shows games in category 5 are NOT PERFECT they are merely great in many aspects, any flaws are insignificant and are countered adequetly by the positives. These are games that most people would generally buy a console to play it on. IE- GTA series, Halo, most final fantasy games, Mario galaxy

The greatness of this ratings scheme is that no one can really bitch about game X being 1% higher then game y. Also a critic writing the review could go into detail about comparing similar titles within the same category. I find most gamers can agree on what games are very good , most critics as well, as soon as you add math to that opinion though it becomes an annoying debate. "why did zelda only get an 8.5/10 whine whine" with this 5 catagory system even an 8.5 rating for zelda would put it in the high catagory.

Catagory 5- 85-100%
 
FirstInHell said:
I actually stopped listening to the GDC podcast series once I found out he was going to be a regular. When N'Gai is on the show he just seems to talk about 50 times as much as everyone else on the podcast. This means:

-He feels that what he is saying is so riveting, it should trump anyone else's thoughts on the topic
-He is impressed with his viewpoint and likes to hear himself talk

This man's overinflated sense of importance could boil down to the fact that the crew (unjustifiably) treats him like a e-celeberity whenever he comes on the show.

N'Gai, do you think the average podcast listener gives a flying fuck while you brag about which high level game executive you had dinner with while discussing the state of the industry? Nobody is impressed, it is just obnoxious and annoying. Continue formulating your thesis on the state of the games industry elsewhere, your schitck is tired, obnoxious, and insulting. You are not an industry visionary. You write for videogames in Newsweek. I hold you in the same esteem as the guy who writes the game reviews for Maxim. The only reason why anyone talks to you is because there is a chance that they may catch some mainstream exposure. Chad Warden could write for Newsweek and people would be inviting him on podcasts and taking him out to dinner as well.

I might not have put it so strongly, but I agree, and I'm glad to see someone else isn't impressed by N'Gai. He's just banal.
 
No one has yet mentioned that the website for this forum uses the same system (and has for years). It has its benefits and drawbacks but on the whole its more diplomatic than a 1-10 system.

If reviewers want to simplify it, just wrap the review up with a PASS/RENT/BUY with conditionals for the edge cases. If they want something that follows the bell curve, where a 5 is truly the average, they will have to constantly establish what constitutes the average for each genre and give scores based on some internal ranking.
 
I don't like it. If they are complaining that readers don't get that a game can be good but not great, why not just ditch a grading scale entirely and use only the text in the review? Then they fuck over metacritic even more, and not have to deal with people bitching about low scores.
 
ErinIsADrunk said:
looks like 1UP has just implemented the switch to the new system.

It just occurred to me that this could really boost site traffic for having effectively adding nothing content-wise. I rarely go to 1up and I don't really respect anyone's opinion other than my own, yet I find myself wanting to go look-up scores of old games just to see what letter grade they got.

edit: I'm still seeing numbers for scores.
 
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