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Ellen Pao didn't even fire Victoria Taylor

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I think the question why she didn't say anything is fair though. Perhaps she wasn't the driving the force behind the firing but still approved it? Or was she held back by some kind of NDAs?

That's a fair question, yes, but was responding to this:

the wrong shady person got piled on. OOPs. she shoulda spoken up while getting torn a new one for something she didn't do.

That's not asking a question or inquiring why she didn't speak up about her being thrown under the bus. That's RockTurtle simply handwaving the Reddit community acting like butts with "she shoulda said something".

You can dislike her while not taking part in anything sexist/racist. There are people actively trying to frame this as "Reddit gave in to sexist/racist trolls and fired a flawless paragon of virtue!", which is maddening.

People aren't "digging up dirt" on her- this stuff has all been high-profile because of the failed lawsuit and various public statements (banning salary negotiations) over the past year or so.

You can't throw your boss under the bus. You'll wind up under the wheels even faster.

I don't know who you're talking about in this case, because I don't think 1) that she's a flawless paragon of virtue or 2) that I'm framing this as "Reddit giving in to sexist/racist trolls".

People can dislike her decisions and not think she's a good fit for Reddit, but there's two conditions to that: make sure that the decisions you blame her for are actually her decisions, and don't use the "she wasn't good for Reddit anway!" as an excuse to absolve the community of abhorrent behavior.
 
Reddit isn't making a profit.

Unless you're an investor, that isn't of your concern. Moderation done right takes out significant time from a person's day. A website as large, well funded, and significant as Reddit should definitely compensate the people who contribute to it's success.
 
I don't know who you're talking about in this case, because I don't think 1) that she's a flawless paragon of virtue or 2) that I'm framing this as "Reddit giving in to sexist/racist trolls".

People can dislike her decisions and not think she's a good fit for Reddit, but there's two conditions to that: make sure that the decisions you blame her for are actually her decisions, and don't use the "she wasn't good for Reddit anway!" as an excuse to absolve the community of abhorrent behavior.
Wasn't referring to you specifically. on the first part As the CEO, she is the figurehead and going to get blamed for both positive and negative decisions. (There was a lot of praise for doing the FPH bans.) But who's doing the bolded, at least here on GAF? The issues they have with the casual/sexism is a huge issue for the site overall, and the stuff popping up on there is a symptom of the underyling moderation issues the site has had for years and years.
 
Unless you're an investor, that isn't of your concern. Moderation done right takes out significant time from a person's day. A website as large, well funded, and significant as Reddit should definitely compensate the people who contribute to it's success.

But it's economically infeasible, and they're trying to run Reddit as a business. You can't just ignore the realities.

While the whole "Reddit is doomed" think pieces are incredibly stupid, there's no doubt that part of the problem is that people are trying to turn essentially the microcosm of the internet into a revenue generator, and it's not working well for obvious reasons. It would make much more sense for someone else to look at Reddit, essentially clone its most popular subs, and then create a smaller, more structured and moderated community around those aspects to try and make money.

More to the point, even if these mods were paid, the way they have come up through the community would still mean that they're likely more loyal to the original Reddit ethos than the people who want to wring it for coin. Reddit fails to understand that its biggest asset is also its biggest liability, and that their attempts to leverage one aspect while ignoring or trying to silence the others isn't going to work.
 
Isn't this the new CEO that is replacing her?

Oh what a day. What a lovely day. I can't wait to get home and pop popcorn to read subreddit drama about this.

All those people that thought Pao was what was wrong with reddit: Annihilated.
 
Why are people here thinking this is an issue with who Pao was and not the fact it had everything to do with the decisions being made? We really do not know what went on besides what we were being told and what we have seen from her reputation and behavior. It could have been someone else who got rid of someone important but the point still stands that the majority of terrible behavior seems to have stemmed from the decisions made by the CEO.
 
Isn't this the new CEO that is replacing her?

Oh what a day. What a lovely day. I can't wait to get home and pop popcorn to read subreddit drama about this.

All those people that thought Pao was what was wrong with reddit: Annihilated.

Actually he's not. The new CEO is Steve Huffman, another co-founder of reddit.
 
That's a fair question, yes, but was responding to this:



That's not asking a question or inquiring why she didn't speak up about her being thrown under the bus. That's RockTurtle simply handwaving the Reddit community acting like butts with "she shoulda .

Im not handwaving away the stupid comments. She was right to ignore those as they were posted long before this occurred. It wasnt anything new.

What the main crux of this whole ordeal was and what set off the major backlash was the total lack of communication with the people who run her business for free. The ones capable of disrupting the everyday going ons by doing the blackouts.

THATS the main issue.

If there is any handwaving going on is the disregard of her misshaps as a ceo just because shes a minority in the tech field.
 
But it's economically infeasible, and they're trying to run Reddit as a business. You can't just ignore the realities.

While the whole "Reddit is doomed" think pieces are incredibly stupid, there's no doubt that part of the problem is that people are trying to turn essentially the microcosm of the internet into a revenue generator, and it's not working well for obvious reasons. It would make much more sense for someone else to look at Reddit, essentially clone its most popular subs, and then create a smaller, more structured and moderated community around those aspects to try and make money.

More to the point, even if these mods were paid, the way they have come up through the community would still mean that they're likely more loyal to the original Reddit ethos than the people who want to wring it for coin. Reddit fails to understand that its biggest asset is also its biggest liability, and that their attempts to leverage one aspect while ignoring or trying to silence the others isn't going to work.

And the 50 million dollars invested last year as funding?

http://time.com/3450275/reddit-venture-capital-funding/

Reddit is no longer a scrappy startup underdog. It’s a company with a valuation pegged as high as a half-a-billion dollars that has hosted a conversation with the President, among other leaders. But Wong remains confident that backers will let the newly-rich Reddit keep being weird.

“We have been entrusted with capital by patient, long-term investors who support our views on difficult issues,” he said. “We believe in free speech, self-governing communities, and the power of voting. We find that this freedom yields more good than bad, and we have chosen investors based on this belief.”

Who benefits here? The people who have significant stockholding stakes in Reddit benefit, but not the community? The community contributes to Reddit's success.

That 10% stock award mentioned in Time magazine?

http://www.redditblog.com/2014/09/fundraising-for-reddit.html

Check the Reddit blog. No mention of it again past September.

Why are people here thinking this is an issue with who Pao was and not the fact it had everything to do with the decisions being made? We really do not know what went on besides what we were being told and what we have seen from her reputation and behavior. It could have been someone else who got rid of someone important but the point still stands that the majority of terrible behavior seems to have stemmed from the decisions made by the CEO.

Because there is credible evidence to suggest that Ms. Pao was given the job to fail, and because the B of D hasn't been transparent with the details surrounding Victoria Taylor's termination.
 
she was the interim ceo not the actual CEO. she had no interaction with the community and ran it like a business and kept aloof of the community not even being a willing participant in it. this was MORE than just the firing. It was also the fact that as the interim CEO she could have handled the community better but she waited too long

She was hired by the board. She was doing the wishes of the board. I assume she was an interim CEO because the board wanted someone temporary to come in and make unpopular changes to lead Reddit toward their plan for profitability.

The board is the problem here. You are trying hard to find a simple, palatable solution to a complex issue. She was never going to be accepted by that community as long as she was serving under that board. It wasn't going to happen.
 
I don't think Reddit has outlived its usefulness.

I think a thorough re-examination if its core priorities as a community is long overdue. They defend the indefensible and when someone rocks the boat, or is accused of rocking the boat, they become extremely ugly.
Management would have to take more control, pay their mods something, do a mass culling of actual offensive content or enforce everything and make sure regardless of subreddit content, it has to abide by the same terms of service/conditions or something.

But then all the libertarian crying will happen and probably kill it or something and blow it out of proportion.

There should be a way to keep most of how reddit works but you have to limit a bunch of things too, like how easily subreddits can be created. They'd either have to go through a vetting process or something.
 
I dont think Pao's firing was based on sexism, it was more about her being disconnected from the community. The language of the reaction against Pao could be from the people who are part of the sexist subreddits as well that doesn't make the reddit community itself sexist. This is the positive and the negative of the community, everything goes and all kinds of people are there.

Agreed. Wasn't good enough for the job and didn't have the track record.
 
She was hired by the board. She was doing the wishes of the board. I assume she was an interim CEO because the board wanted someone temporary to come in and make unpopular changes to lead Reddit toward their plan for profitability.

The board is the problem here. You are trying hard to find a simple, palatable solution to a complex issue. She was never going to be accepted by that community as long as she was serving under that board. It wasn't going to happen.

She didn't even understand how Reddit works—she went to the press to explain actions first instead of the users, she only started engaging after the shit hit the fan. That disconnect was never going to endear her to the userbase. Sure, the board bears some responsibility here as well, but she certainly did a worse job than she conceivably could have, even ignoring her dodgy reputation.

I wonder what people who let pao have it feel now that this has gotten out.

Considering the multitude of issues people have had with her tenure, it probably changes little. Maybe a few people think that this proves that Reddit's leaders, even a founder, don't have their interests at heart.
 
Reddit starts whichhunts all the time, often based on false or incomplete information. They will turn on anyone at a moment's notice. I don't think it has anything to do with Pao being a woman or a minority.
 
Reddit starts whichhunts all the time, often based on false or incomplete information. They will turn on anyone at a moment's notice. I don't think it has anything to do with Pao being a woman or a minority.

Are you sure? That kid from Boston who was fingered by reddit detectives to be the Boston Bomber because he was brown. They harassed his family while they were searching for him right until it was revealed that the kid commited suicide days before the bombing.

There's also that one time a woman posted a pic of her bruised face after surviving a sexual assault and reddit detectives found out she was a makeup artist and harassed her to prove she wasn't lying until she made a video showing her injuries were real by wiping her face.

The majority of these reddit witchunts are almost always targeted to people who aren't white guys.
 
There's also that one time a woman posted a pic of her bruised face after surviving a sexual assault and reddit detectives found out she was a makeup artist and harassed her to prove she wasn't lying until she made a video showing her injuries were real by wiping her face.

Damn what the fuck...
 
Are you sure? That kid from Boston who was fingered by reddit detectives to be the Boston Bomber because he was brown.

There's also that one time a woman posted a pic of her bruised face after surviving a sexual assault and reddit detectives found out she was a makeup artist and harassed her to prove she wasn't lying until she made a video showing her injuries were real by wiping her face.


The majority of these reddit witchunts are almost always targeted to people who aren't white guys.
Umm, holy fuck?
 
A reminder that this was the front page of reddit for a couple of days last month if you were not logged on or clicked /r/all.

uBhv0BI.png
Christ, what a scuzzheap.
 
She didn't even understand how Reddit works—she went to the press to explain actions first instead of the users, she only started engaging after the shit hit the fan. That disconnect was never going to endear her to the userbase. Sure, the board bears some responsibility here as well, but she certainly did a worse job than she conceivably could have, even ignoring her dodgy reputation.



Considering the multitude of issues people have had with her tenure, it probably changes little. Maybe a few people think that this proves that Reddit's leaders, even a founder, don't have their interests at heart.

I would say that her decision to not even attempt to meet a brewing mob head on shows that she, in fact, had a very solid understanding of how Reddit works. Do you really think that there is a reasonable scenario where she could have had any sort of fruitful conversation on that site at that time?
 
I would say that her decision to not even attempt to meet a brewing mob head on shows that she, in fact, had a very solid understanding of how Reddit works. Do you really think that there is a reasonable scenario where she could have had any sort of fruitful conversation on that site at that time?
The people she needed to address were not a brewing mob- they were the moderators who work for free.
 
Those who are claiming reddit is inherently sexist might have a point for specific subreddits but they forget that the fired AMA lady all of reddit rallied behind was also a woman. So the allegation doesn't really stick
Race-baiters and sexist scumbags have historically shown that they have no problem getting behind "one of the good ones" to bolster their own argument. So the allegation does stick, and fits them well.

tl;dr #notyourshield
 
Pretty good take on the situation for the management at reddit: http://gawker.com/no-one-wants-to-a...m_source=gawker_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow

Why would an outside chief executive expect to be treated any differently than Ellen Pao? Who going forward will dare tell Redditors that if they want to jerk off to teens or harass women, maybe they’ll have to go to another website? For Reddit to become something resembling a viable business, it has to make money, and that means making the bigots and stalkers and imbeciles feel less welcome—how many firms will do business with the company that pays to keep /r/GasTheKikes running? Any outside CEO is therefore facing an impossible job: fumigate Reddit sufficiently for advertisers while placating a hostile militia of superusers that can’t seem to distinguish between mild rules and a prison sentence on Robben Island.

Without cleansing itself a little, Reddit will continue on its current course: a petri dish for the web’s dullest, dumbest impulses, a lowest common denominator clearinghouse of lazy memes, stolen porn, casual racism, a recruiting ground for hate groups, and an overall bummer. Because Reddit is a place for cowards, run by cowards afraid to take responsibility for the machine they engineered, populated by cowards who won’t reckon with the adult world around them.

Like mentioned earlier, the asylum is run by the inmates.
 
Are you sure? That kid from Boston who was fingered by reddit detectives to be the Boston Bomber because he was brown. They harassed his family while they were searching for him right until it was revealed that the kid commited suicide days before the bombing.

There's also that one time a woman posted a pic of her bruised face after surviving a sexual assault and reddit detectives found out she was a makeup artist and harassed her to prove she wasn't lying until she made a video showing her injuries were real by wiping her face.

The majority of these reddit witchunts are almost always targeted to people who aren't white guys.

I'm not denying there's a ton of racism and misogyny on reddit, I just think they will find someone to go after no matter what. Did you see how reddit behaved during the Skyrim paid mod debacle? Yes, Pao gets more and worse shit flung at her because of who she is, but shitheads rioting over fatpeoplehate would've done so no matter who the CEO was.
 
I'm not denying there's a ton of racism and misogyny on reddit, I just think they will find someone to go after no matter what. Did you see how reddit behaved during the Skyrim paid mod debacle?

You can't really witchhunt an entity like a video game company. There's no face for you to post on /r/punchablefaces.

Besides, it wasnt just reddit who was mad over the Skyrim paid mods fiasco.

Yes, Pao gets more and worse shit flung at her because of who she is, but shitheads rioting over fatpeoplehate would've done so no matter who the CEO was.

I already mentioned this before, but the previous CEO was a guy and didn't get even half the shit Pao got when he banned a bunch of subreddits years ago. Of course redditors rioted but they didn't think Yishan Wong was a communist dictator cunt who deserves to get punched in the face.
 
My point was simply that they will turn on anyone at the drop of a hat, people who gave them endless amounts of free content, a CEO they mock(?) worship. People in /r/starcraft would harass sponsors of certain players to the point where they lost the sponsorship, just because they did something to incite the mob. It's built up hate and frustration, they just need somewhere to direct it and off they go.
 
Aye, does anyone else get racist vibes from this Chairwoman Pao shit? Some of the art pieces I've seen are suspect to put it lightly.
 
It's going to be a trainwreck, but at least an amusing one. Or maybe the community surprises us all and it'll be a civilized, helpful discussion.
Considering the discussion for the announcement is already full of racist slurs and requests for the CEO to kill himself, we're off to a good start.
 
It's like the Reddit board of directors and executive management are just flailing around wildly. They fired a whole bunch of their staff for no good reason after banning remote work. They fired the one person that the community really liked in a way that revealed they didn't even know what that person did as a job. They didn't bother to talk to the community, and let the CEO take the blame for the board's decisions. Their chief engineer is quitting because they don't trust the board.

I feel sorry for the users and the employees. It seems that the owners are doing a terrible job of running the company.
 
u/yishan, Pao's predecessor, dropping more bombs:

AYYYYYY LMAO

How's everyone doing? This is AWESOME!

There's something I neglected to tell you all this time ("executive privilege"), but I'm declassifying a lot of things these days. Back around the time of the /r/creepshots debacle, I wrote to /u/spez for advice. I had met him shortly after I had taken the job, and found him to be a great guy. Back in the day when reddit was small, the areas he oversaw were engineering, product, and the business aspects - those are the same things I tend to focus on in a company (each CEO has certain areas of natural focus, and hires others to oversee the rest). As a result, we were able to connect really well and have a lot of great conversations - talking to him was really valuable.

Well, when things were heating around the /r/creepshots thing and people were calling for its banning, I wrote to him to ask for advice. The very interesting thing he wrote back was "back when I was running things, if there was anything racist, sexist, or homophobic I'd ban it right away. I don't think there's a place for such things on reddit. Of course, now that reddit is much bigger, I understand if maybe things are different."

I've always remembered that email when I read the occasional posting here where people say "the founders of reddit intended this to be a place for free speech." Human minds love originalism, e.g. "we're in trouble, so surely if we go back to the original intentions, we can make things good again." Sorry to tell you guys but NO, that wasn't their intention at all ever. Sucks to be you, /r/coontown - I hope you enjoy voat!

The free speech policy was something I formalized because it seemed like the wiser course at the time. It's worth stating that in that era, we were talking about whether it was ok for people to post creepy pictures of women taken legally in public. That's shitty, but it's a far cry from the extremes of hate that some parts of the site host today. It seemed that allowing creepers to post (anonymized) pictures of women taken in public, in a relatively small subreddit that never showed up on the front page, was a small price to pay for making it clear that we were a place welcoming of all opinions and discourse.

Having made that decision - much of reddit's current condition is on me. I didn't anticipate what (some) redditors would decide to do with freedom. reddit has become a lot bigger - yes, a lot better - AND a lot worse. I have to take responsibility.

But... the most delicious part of this is that on at least two separate occasions, the board pressed /u/ekjp to outright ban ALL the hate subreddits in a sweeping purge. She resisted, knowing the community, claiming it would be a shitshow. Ellen isn't some "evil, manipulative, out-of-touch incompetent she-devil" as was often depicted. She was approved by the board and recommended by me because when I left, she was the only technology executive anywhere who had the chops and experience to manage a startup of this size, AND who understood what reddit was all about. As we can see from her post-resignation activity, she knows perfectly well how to fit in with the reddit community and is a normal, funny person - just like in real life - she simply didn't sit on reddit all day because she was busy with her day job.

Ellen was more or less inclined to continue upholding my free-speech policies. /r/fatpeoplehate was banned for inciting off-site harassment, not discussing fat-shaming. What all the white-power racist-sexist neckbeards don't understand is that with her at the head of the company, the company would be immune to accusations of promoting sexism and racism: she is literally Silicon Valley's #1 Feminist Hero, so any "SJWs" would have a hard time attacking the company for intentionally creating a bastion (heh) of sexist/racist content. She probably would have tolerated your existence so long as you didn't cause any problems - I know that her long-term strategies were to find ways to surface and publicize reddit's good parts - allowing the bad parts to exist but keeping them out of the spotlight. It would have been very principled - the CEO of reddit, who once sued her previous employer for sexual discrimination, upholds free speech and tolerates the ugly side of humanity because it is so important to maintaining a platform for open discourse. It would have been unassailable.

Well, now she's gone (you did it reddit!), and /u/spez has the moral authority as a co-founder to move ahead with the purge. We tried to let you govern yourselves and you failed, so now The Man is going to set some Rules. Admittedly, I can't say I'm terribly upset.

http://i.imgur.com/BBvdWuv.gif

Pao resignation is to reddit, as the mtgox collapse was to bitcoin... we get to watch, in real time, as they learn why rules exist.
 
Some day, when all of this blows over, I can't wait to read a good, succinct summary of what the hell happened. Internet drama is too much fun for some reason.
 
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