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News Drama Business Epic asks for injunction to restore Fortnite to the App Store while the court case proceeds

Apr 19, 2019
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Away with the fairies

Yep.

Explain how Apple are in the wrong. It’s their store, their rules.

It is their store, their rules. Just like the anti monopoly rules are the anti-monopoly rules. Apple have kept their heads down and away from lawsuits in the public eye. Epic are using their player base to drum up support on the Internet and raise awareness of the issue.

No way Apple gets away Scott free
 

diffusionx

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Injunctive relief is rarely if ever granted and this doesn’t strike me as an instance that a judge would be willing to extend protection. What’s the problem with Epic being asked to comply in the interim while the issue is litigated, particularly in light of the fact that they instigated this response? A judge may go so far as to grant and deny in part, allowing the app be reinstated but without alternative avenues that bypass the App Store.

The real play for requesting an injunction is to force Apple to publicly defend their policies. It’s all about publicity, not substance, at least at this stage.

Yea. Even if you hate Apple and are on Epic’s side, their ask on this is outrageous. If I was the judge this would not go over well.

Epic can easily release the game sans the offending payment system until this gets resolved. They just choose not to and are asking the court to be allowed to break the agreement.
 
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demigod

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Yep.



It is their store, their rules. Just like the anti monopoly rules are the anti-monopoly rules. Apple have kept their heads down and away from lawsuits in the public eye. Epic are using their player base to drum up support on the Internet and raise awareness of the issue.

No way Apple gets away Scott free

You should sue Walmart because you can’t go into their store and start selling your wares for full profit.
 

NinjaBoiX

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I’m still staggered by the people defending Epic in this, they’ve gone about this whole affair like a petulant child, it’s absolutely embarrassing. It’s literally like some schoolyard squabble where the spoilt rich kid wants all the rules changed so they always win, and then go crying to the teacher when they get told that’s not how the game works.

You’re sadly misguided if you think either party have an interests other than their own bottom line out of this, but at least Apple are playing by the rules. Sure, in this instance it’s their rules but that’s because it’s their game, go play something else if you don’t like how they’ve set the game up.

But sure as shit don’t start playing THEN complain about the rules.
 
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Can someone put it in simple terms how this is a "Monopoly" situation when Epic and Fortnite are in so many other places?
 

8bitkid

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Sep 30, 2009
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Imagine if tomorrow Microsoft decided that only the Windows store were allowed (no steam, egs, etc). They would now take a 30% cut of all app and game sales and decide the arbitrary rules by which developers must comply.

It could be argued that reasonable alternatives exist, macOS and Linux, but society would be worse by most measures.

The primary argument in Apple's favor boils down to "it's their store". The word store should be replaced with platform, or medium. There's a reason the VC world shifted into marketplace strategies over the last 5 years, top-to-bottom control over major economic markets. Antitrust laws serve to protect us from precisely this.

Even Microsoft of old was never so brazen.
 

vkbest

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Imagine actually siding with Apple in a dispute that could result in the actual developers of the games making more money out of their creations instead of having to fatten Apple's coffers as much as they do now. 🙄

Quit that 30% royalties for Sony and Microsoft, and consoles business will be Nintendo alone.
 

Abriael_GN

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Quit that 30% royalties for Sony and Microsoft, and consoles business will be Nintendo alone.

LOL. Do you really think a lower cut than that crazy 30% will kill Sony and Microsoft's console business? 😂

I can see those siding with apple here desperately clutching their massively overpriced iphones, terrorized that this may hit their little beloved consoles in the future.

Apple getting brought low can't happen soon enough, and if it causes all platform holders to have to lower their cut, which means more money for developers, only fanboys would consider that a negative.
 
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NinjaBoiX

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Imagine if tomorrow Microsoft decided that only the Windows store were allowed (no steam, egs, etc). They would now take a 30% cut of all app and game sales and decide the arbitrary rules by which developers must comply.

It could be argued that reasonable alternatives exist, macOS and Linux, but society would be worse by most measures.

The primary argument in Apple's favor boils down to "it's their store". The word store should be replaced with platform, or medium. There's a reason the VC world shifted into marketplace strategies over the last 5 years, top-to-bottom control over major economic markets. Antitrust laws serve to protect us from precisely this.

Even Microsoft of old was never so brazen.
Great stuff, so let’s change up the laws so that Apple can’t monopolise the market in the future, I’m not siding with Apple in terms of saying that they’re rules are particularly fair. I’m all for a more open and level marketplace.

But I just hate how Epic are going about this, it’s slimy, conniving and kind of pathetic.
 
Aug 28, 2019
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Imagine if tomorrow Microsoft decided that only the Windows store were allowed (no steam, egs, etc). They would now take a 30% cut of all app and game sales and decide the arbitrary rules by which developers must comply.

It could be argued that reasonable alternatives exist, macOS and Linux, but society would be worse by most measures.

The primary argument in Apple's favor boils down to "it's their store". The word store should be replaced with platform, or medium. There's a reason the VC world shifted into marketplace strategies over the last 5 years, top-to-bottom control over major economic markets. Antitrust laws serve to protect us from precisely this.

Even Microsoft of old was never so brazen.
Uhh..

Ever heard of Xbox?

Because that's exactly how Xbox works.. outside of physical sales, but they take an $8-10 cut of all of those too lol
 

DaGwaphics

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Dec 29, 2019
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Imagine if tomorrow Microsoft decided that only the Windows store were allowed (no steam, egs, etc). They would now take a 30% cut of all app and game sales and decide the arbitrary rules by which developers must comply.

It could be argued that reasonable alternatives exist, macOS and Linux, but society would be worse by most measures.

The primary argument in Apple's favor boils down to "it's their store". The word store should be replaced with platform, or medium. There's a reason the VC world shifted into marketplace strategies over the last 5 years, top-to-bottom control over major economic markets. Antitrust laws serve to protect us from precisely this.

Even Microsoft of old was never so brazen.

Microsoft is much more dominant in the personal computer OS space than Apple is in the mobile OS space (while iPhone may be the most successful individual models, Android OS is much more the MS here). That changes things quite a lot, plus where you start has a lot to do with things. Apple started as a walled garden and people loved it, you could even argue that the platforms strength is its closed nature.

Many want a walled garden (Why Windows S is so popular in large scale deployments) because of the ease of maintenance and obvious security benefits. I think you will see Windows trend in this direction, though they will keep the existing model around as an option to stave off regulators.
 

8bitkid

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Great stuff, so let’s change up the laws so that Apple can’t monopolise the market in the future, I’m not siding with Apple in terms of saying that they’re rules are particularly fair. I’m all for a more open and level marketplace.

But I just hate how Epic are going about this, it’s slimy, conniving and kind of pathetic.

Strongly agree. Less interested in this particular case and more in overall antitrust reform to catch up with modern marketplace ownership strategies.
 

Gods&Monsters

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Imagine actually siding with Apple in a dispute that could result in the actual developers of the games making more money out of their creations instead of having to fatten Apple's coffers as much as they do now. 🙄

Imagine being so naive. Do you even know what this suit is about? Epic wants to get the Epic store on iOS at 0% cut for Apple. That's it. There is nothing there about getting a smaller cut for all developers and free money for everyone!!!
 

Abriael_GN

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Imagine being so naive. Do you even know what this suit is about? Epic wants to get the Epic store on iOS at 0% cut for Apple. That's it. There is nothing there about getting a smaller cut for all developers and free money for everyone!!!

Imagine thinking this is actually true. 😂

Careful, Epic might steal your iPhone. With what you paid for that piece of crap, it would be irreparable damage. 😂

Also, funny that you'd throw around the "free money for everyone" strawman. Do you know what they say about people abusing strawman arguments?

No one wants "free money for everyone." The moment a legal precedent is created dictating that Apple's 30% cut is unfair, it opens the door to all developers demanding a higher cut for their work, on all platforms. And that's an absolute net positive.
 
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Sakura

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Imagine if tomorrow Microsoft decided that only the Windows store were allowed (no steam, egs, etc). They would now take a 30% cut of all app and game sales and decide the arbitrary rules by which developers must comply.

It could be argued that reasonable alternatives exist, macOS and Linux, but society would be worse by most measures.

The primary argument in Apple's favor boils down to "it's their store". The word store should be replaced with platform, or medium. There's a reason the VC world shifted into marketplace strategies over the last 5 years, top-to-bottom control over major economic markets. Antitrust laws serve to protect us from precisely this.

Even Microsoft of old was never so brazen.
There are some main differences here.
First off, Microsoft does not make computers. The hardware that you bought, isn't from Microsoft, but most of the time you don't really have any choice other than using Windows.
People aren't buying phones, and then being forced to use iOS. They are buying Apple phones from the get-go.
Second, Microsoft has a market share of like what, 80% for computers? That is monopoly territory. Apple does not have a monopoly on the smartphone market. Epic knows this, and instead is trying to sue them for having a monopoly on the app-store or in-app purchases or something, which doesn't really make a lot of sense when you think about it.
Finally, Apple's competitors charge the same 30%, so the argument that 30% is anti-competitive, when the competition chooses to charge the same rate, doesn't really work.
 

DaGwaphics

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Yes for sure.

It would at the very least completely reshape the console space. Right now the platform holder stands to earn enough money via software to eat the R&D costs associated with console development (hardware and software, not cheap) and sell units at cost or even at a small loss. The more money you take away via software the more costs you shift onto the console itself. Which would start a chain reaction that would limit the number of potential users third-party software could reach, and probably cost the developers money in the long run.
 

llien

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I kinda want to see Epic win...

You are not alone:



While Epic, publisher of the hit title Fortnite, focuses on the 30% revenue cut app stores typically take, Japanese game studios have broader concerns. They have long been unhappy with what they see as Apple's inconsistent enforcement of its own App Store guidelines, unpredictable content decisions and lapses in communication, according to more than a dozen people involved in the matter. Japan's antitrust regulator said it will step up attention to the iPhone maker's practices in the wake of the high-stakes legal clash. And in rare cases, prominent executives are beginning to speak out after staying silent out of fear of reprisal. "I want from the bottom of my heart Epic to win," Hironao Kunimitsu, founder and chairman of Tokyo-based mobile game maker Gumi, wrote on his Facebook page.


Walmart because you
Can pretend digital store and actual store has so much in common, to "make a point".

But I just hate how Epic are going about this
 
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supernova8

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Epic isn't interested in other developers. Epic is interested in Epic and that's fine but let's not give them any more credit than they deserve. They've come up with this massive hit and they're pissed off that they have to give Apple a cut. Apple are the gate keepers and that app store/in-app purchase revenue cut is a major part of Apple's business. Anyone thinking they would just give it up without a massive fight (particularly against a far smaller company that is also trying to indirectly compete by having their own game storefront) is bonkers.
 

NinjaBoiX

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If Epic had just raised a entirely separate lawsuit to try and change the regulations on the App Store I’d say more power to ‘em, god speed and all that.

But they’ve just dragged themselves through the mud with this embarrassing display; shortsighted shady side deal with v-bucks, the childish knee jerk propaganda pandering to their predominantly pre-teen demographic when the shit inevitably hit the fan, the resulting “cap in hand” plea to the court because they’re losing revenue, etc.

It could’ve been an entirely noble and worthwhile endeavour instead of this cringeworthy shitshow they’ve created.

I feel like Tim Sweeney has had some very sobering shareholder meetings this last few weeks...
 

notseqi

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The gall of these guys.
Go big or go home.
Most of the commentary from this forum sounds like they have never run a business or have been involved in a level of business where executive decisions come into play.

Epic doesn't care about the Apple Store. They are trying to capitalize on a non-issue. This probably is political, even though I would love for it to be ideological.
 

00_Zer0

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Epic are using their player base to drum up support on the Internet and raise awareness of the issue.

Epic+Millennials, tweens, and younger vs. Apple. That's a laugh.

Basically Epic is acting like many from the generation they are supporting. If the shoe fits....



Epic is for no one but themselves.
 
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demigod

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LOL. Do you really think a lower cut than that crazy 30% will kill Sony and Microsoft's console business? 😂

I can see those siding with apple here desperately clutching their massively overpriced iphones, terrorized that this may hit their little beloved consoles in the future.

Apple getting brought low can't happen soon enough, and if it causes all platform holders to have to lower their cut, which means more money for developers, only fanboys would consider that a negative.
Imagine thinking this is actually true. 😂

Careful, Epic might steal your iPhone. With what you paid for that piece of crap, it would be irreparable damage. 😂

Also, funny that you'd throw around the "free money for everyone" strawman. Do you know what they say about people abusing strawman arguments?

No one wants "free money for everyone." The moment a legal precedent is created dictating that Apple's 30% cut is unfair, it opens the door to all developers demanding a higher cut for their work, on all platforms. And that's an absolute net positive.

Let me guess, you have an android phone. Newsflash for you, Google charges the same fees. Sony, MS, Steam, Nintendo also charges the same fees. Go cry about them.

Don’t like their fees? Get the F off their platform and make your own hardware/OS.
 

PaintTinJr

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I can't see where they'd have a case on the Google side. Tencent is free to put Epic Game Store on Android and sell from there. Sideloading is perfectly legitimate - an Android user could bypass Google entirely and buy their MTX directly from Tencent through EGS. No court would argue against this IMO.
The android situation is schematically not much different to the Apple situation in reality, of their being no competing stores to name that co-exist with the Play Store.

This is because (AFAIK) Google Apps installation (GApps) on a phone requires the handset maker to make the PlayStore the defaul,t and not install another store. So in reality a handset mfr is required to redevelop basic general computing OS functionality - email, browser, calendar, etc- that Android users expect to be consistent across Android ver X.x phones, if they won't rollover and let Google vacuum up the 30% on all apps.

(AFAIK) By comparison, Windows PCs can be customized however the mfr wants.
 

Abriael_GN

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Let me guess, you have an android phone. Newsflash for you, Google charges the same fees. Sony, MS, Steam, Nintendo also charges the same fees. Go cry about them.

Don’t like their fees? Get the F off their platform and make your own hardware/OS.

Imagine not understanding that Apple being brought low in this lawsuit will open the door to ALL of them having to take less money from developers.

And yes, I have an Android phone. I don't care for paying more for less.
 
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Apr 19, 2019
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Away with the fairies
Epic+Millennials, tweens, and younger vs. Apple. That's a laugh.

Basically Epic is acting like many from the generation they are supporting. If the shoe fits....



Epic is for no one but themselves.
And neither are Apple.

I'll side with company that used to make good games vs the company that uses China's appalling human rights to cut down cost on labour.

Call me old fashioned.
 

FStubbs

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The android situation is schematically not much different to the Apple situation in reality, of their being no competing stores to name that co-exist with the Play Store.

This is because (AFAIK) Google Apps installation (GApps) on a phone requires the handset maker to make the PlayStore the defaul,t and not install another store. So in reality a handset mfr is required to redevelop basic general computing OS functionality - email, browser, calendar, etc- that Android users expect to be consistent across Android ver X.x phones, if they won't rollover and let Google vacuum up the 30% on all apps.

(AFAIK) By comparison, Windows PCs can be customized however the mfr wants.

I'll have to disagree. At least Tencent has the option of having customers sideload Epic Game Store on an android phone to buy their Microtransactions.

Go big or go home.
Most of the commentary from this forum sounds like they have never run a business or have been involved in a level of business where executive decisions come into play.

Epic doesn't care about the Apple Store. They are trying to capitalize on a non-issue. This probably is political, even though I would love for it to be ideological.

My opinion is that it's Tencent, not Epic. Epic is owned by Tencent, so we're really talking about Tencent. This is Tencent's battle against walled gardens. Epic Game Store on Windows was phase 1, mobile app stores are phase 2, and they'll go after the consoles in phase 3. So in the sense that it's Tencent, it's political and economic.
 
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BeardGawd

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That’s because most of us function normally valuing logic over your hurt feelings towards corporations.

If you feel so bad about how much developers make, then feel free to create your own store and ecosystem for them instead of being passive aggressive to other forum users.

The ole create your own country/government/political party/*insert any nonsensical request* if you don’t like it defense.
 

notseqi

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I'll have to disagree. At least Tencent has the option of having customers sideload Epic Game Store on an android phone to buy their Microtransactions.



My opinion is that it's Tencent, not Epic. Epic is owned by Tencent, so we're really talking about Tencent. This is Tencent's battle against walled gardens. Epic Game Store on Windows was phase 1, mobile app stores are phase 2, and they'll go after the consoles in phase 3. So in the sense that it's Tencent, it's political and economic.
There is no question where it is coming from.
 

DigitalScrap

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They're trying to make the monopoly/antitrust argument. From a certain point of view they do have grounds. Apple not allowing customers a choice of where and how to purchase content for devices they own is a legit argument. Companies have had contracts invalidated by courts before. Companies have been forced to allow competition on their platforms. Apple's App Store has reached economy of scale and the piles of cash they are hoarding from it will work against them in the end. It might not be this case. But it will happen one day.

Apple is not in a dominant position in any of the business areas they compete in. Yes, they are VERY successful, but you can't assert that Apple is in any way a monopolistic position when there are competitors in each and every business area that have more market share than Apple.

And you also can't punish Apple strictly for hoarding cash, or say that because they have those cash stores that they should offer their services for free to others.
 
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notseqi

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Apple is not in a dominant position in any of the business areas they compete in. Yes, they are VERY successful, but you can't assert that Apple is in any way a monopolistic position when there are competitors in each and every business area that have more market share than Apple.

And you also can't punish Apple strictly for hoarding cash, or say that because they have those cash stores that they should offer their services for free to others.
They do have the marketing, the market that is crying for PCs to be easier, and people that are adopters 'cuse of working with them already. It's big enough, and their cash reserves show it. It should show to their customers that they are overfed but adoption bias is a big thing.
 

00_Zer0

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And neither are Apple.

I'll side with company that used to make good games vs the company that uses China's appalling human rights to cut down cost on labour.

Call me old fashioned.
Then call me a realist, because I'm actually for neither company, because both companies take advantage of dealing with China, but in different ways. Also, Apple is of the virtue signaling crowd just like Twitter, Google, and Facebook. They are supposedly out there protecting the "truth" while banning certain viewpoints that don't fit their narrative or ideology.

I'm all for capatolism, but all the companies listed above, including Epic, stink to high heaven.
 
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ZywyPL

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[...] it’s showing how Apple is anti competitive, now with hard data.

I actually see it exactly the other way around - everyone can join their ecosystem, and everyone is treated equally, doesn't matter unknown single person indie dev or well known multi-billion dollar company, that's competitiveness at it's finest, while Epic thinks they are better than everyone else and above rules due to Fortnite success. Apple have all the rights to charge for joining the iOS ecosystem, it's so popular because they earned it, worked for it, so why should anyone be able to live on their work/success just like that, for free? If Epic wants 100% they can create their own smartphones and their own mobile OS, no one is stopping them, the market if fully open and competitive for any new smartphone/OS players.
 
Apr 19, 2019
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Away with the fairies
Then call me a realist, because I'm actually for neither company, because both companies take advantage of dealing with China, but in different ways. Also, Apple is of the virtue signaling crowd just like Twitter, Google, and Facebook. They are supposedly out there protecting the "truth" while banning certain viewpoints that don't fit their narrative or ideology.

I'm all for capatolism, but all the companies listed above, including Epic, stink to high heaven.
I agree with that. I hope this lawsuit opens a can of worms, combined with the NSA surveillance being ruled unlawful (its a start) and we may be seeing the start of the end of these wanky mega tech corps.
 
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sn0man

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Imagine if Apple wins this argument and the very next day Microsoft and Google decide to lock Windows and Android in the same way.

In a world of such terrible wealth distribution and wealth unbalance, I wonder if backing those that have less wealth(the US people) than Apple, a $2 trillion dollar company (concentrated wealth, less competition and employment, etc) is a vote winner in the US at the moment.

The US have broken up such giants in the past and forced more competition in lesser situations than this, so will be interesting to see if they've changed their .
Maybe companies like Epic (that previously said they hated Microsoft and Windows [until they got whatever they wanted and now they’re chummy with MS] will get serious and support Linux.

somehow I doubt they will as that would mean putting in a modicum of effort to support an open platform instead of wanting all the advantages of a paid platform like MS and Apple without monetary hinderances that go with it.

I do not support the idea of locked down platforms but I also don’t want to support Epic as they like to play games instead of be principled.

Epic basically says, “platform that charges 30% to let me have a store. You did a lot of work and I don’t like paying you a cut. I want to put my store where I can charge a % instead.”

Apple isn’t benevolent but their answer is at least more cogent “we made this walled garden. You were happy with it yesterday. It confers benefits and you’ve grown and succeeded because of them. If you don’t like it, there are other platforms.”

Epic: “fine we will break our contract and then bitch to public opinion and the courts and pretend we can’t unbreak it just as easily.”
 

diffusionx

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Imagine if tomorrow Microsoft decided that only the Windows store were allowed (no steam, egs, etc). They would now take a 30% cut of all app and game sales and decide the arbitrary rules by which developers must comply.

It could be argued that reasonable alternatives exist, macOS and Linux, but society would be worse by most measures.

The primary argument in Apple's favor boils down to "it's their store". The word store should be replaced with platform, or medium. There's a reason the VC world shifted into marketplace strategies over the last 5 years, top-to-bottom control over major economic markets. Antitrust laws serve to protect us from precisely this.

Even Microsoft of old was never so brazen.

It’s nothing like that. Windows has a monopoly on desktop OS, Apple is at best 10% of the mobile market. Believe it or not this distinction matters. MacOS is not in any way a competitive alternative to windows, but Android is the dominant player. Apple in no way is a monopoly, they are a platform, just like say Switch is a platform.

Also you are describing a situation where MS changed something after the fact, compared to iOS where this has been the situation for as long as there has been an App Store, a situation that thousands of developers - including Epic - agreed to and operated with.
 
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sn0man

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next Epic will sue sony to have epic games store as an alternative store on PlayStation consoles so that Sony cannot get the cut, because it is unfair that epic have to pay Sony. Imagine siding with Sony in that argument. (Replace Sony with any platform holder name)

/s



but isn’t google doing exactly the same thing? Unless you side load Apk files you are forced to use google play store where google takes a cut, same as Apple.
Yes google does the same thing and arguably that is the thing that might benefit the user the most. Be able to side load. But that isn’t what epic wants. They want the benefit of the App Store without a financial contribution.

if Epic wins they will exactly consider who next to go after. I presume that Epic’s argument is anyone that harvests a % for running a platform (other than Epic) is bad.
 

Danny Dudekisser

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Injunctive relief is rarely if ever granted and this doesn’t strike me as an instance that a judge would be willing to extend protection. What’s the problem with Epic being asked to comply in the interim while the issue is litigated, particularly in light of the fact that they instigated this response? A judge may go so far as to grant and deny in part, allowing the app be reinstated but without alternative avenues that bypass the App Store.

The real play for requesting an injunction is to force Apple to publicly defend their policies. It’s all about publicity, not substance, at least at this stage.

Yeah, that's about right. The other thing is: if Epic really believes serious harm will come to their business as a result, they could always... I dunno, comply? Apple doesn't owe them access to their platform.
 

Fuz

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Imagine actually siding with Apple in a dispute that could result in the actual developers of the games making more money out of their creations instead of having to fatten Apple's coffers as much as they do now. 🙄
Yeah, people are blinded by their hate for Epic.
If Epic won it would be a great thing for consumers, publishers and developers - everyone. Except Apple.