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[Dead Man]

Oh man, please not this again.

1 copy pirated doesn't equal -1 sale...

Pretty interesting take on piracy (on the PC) from those guys who offered that humble bundle, if you're interested;

http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/05/Saving-a-penny----pirating-the-Humble-Indie-Bundle

http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/05/Another-view-of-game-piracy

Excellent reads, especially the second one. Thanks.

 

[Pooya]

Did it really? Are we talking AC2?

Max Payne on steam IIRC.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

it's because torrents weren't in full rage until 2007.

absolute nonsense.

 

[neorej]

Did it really? Are we talking AC2?

Rainbow 6 Vegas 2.

 

[The Dutch Slayer]

Lucky for us there are still people who GET IT !!!!! its not about acuall numbers because those do not exist for "lost" sales on console or pc its about perspective, if you shout it enough more people pick it up.

SEGA has defended PC gaming and claims that a reported 26 percent year-on-year decline does not represent the full picture.

Speaking with MCV, SEGA UK’s managing director John Clark said that digital sales should start being taken into account as it makes up a large portion of revenue for PC game sales.

“The PC market is third in terms of its year-on-year performance with a decline of 26 per cent, but this doesn’t really reflect the full picture,” said Clark. “The PC digital download business is now a viable sector but somewhat invisible as it’s not yet covered by Chart-Track. The PC market overall is actually performing much better than is currently reported and remains a vital and strong sector to be involved in.

“Last month’s PC chart illustrates Sega’s position within this sector. Napoleon: Total War, Football Manager 2010 and Aliens vs Predator are three different styles of game from three different genres. They can all drive a strong, community fan base with the ability to consistently deliver endless hours of gameplay. Incidentally, they are all developed in the UK.

“For 2009, Sega was ranked the second biggest PC publisher in the market. In 2010 year-to-date, we are once again ranked second. Long may it continue.”

Last year, SEGA was the second largest UK publisher of PC games, and held a 12 percent share of the market.

So far in 2010, it holds a 12.8 percent share of the PC market thanks to sales of Aleins vs Predator as well as the aforementioned titles.

Thank god there are still people using there head!

 

[Mael]

So, what the hell legitimate evidence does Epic have about their own games that piracy is killing their PC sales?

They don't have any, they're just justifying their choice and somehow making sure devs stuck in the pc realms are marginalized so that their partner get in an even stronger position which will in turn help them.

In short, shaddy politics.
I mean it's like having one guy from the majority party saying that HUGE IMPOPULAR LAW enacted by majority party is not so bad for the country, usually said guy wants a place in the government or something.

In even shorter terms, you're probably not the one they're targeting with this

absolute nonsense.

he's right it probably was eMule

 

[subversus]

absolute nonsense.

No, more people connecting to the broadband every year - more torrent users. I remember 2007 as a year when people I know stopped buying PC games.

 

[speculawyer]

He's got a point. Sadly so.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

No, more people every year connecting to the boadband - more torrent users. I remember 2007 as a year when people I know stopped buying PC games.

lol oh so you have anecdotal evidence oh excuse me, n/m then :lol

It doesn't seem strange to you that the last decent PC game they made sold a shit load of copies and the two abortions they put out after that didnt? You don't see some kind of correlation there? I do...

 

[Mael]

No, more people every year connecting to the boadband - more torrent users. I remember 2007 as a year when people I know stopped buying PC games.

what the hell does that even mean?
I know that I don't anyone who bought games since 2005 does that mean piracy was widespread since 2005?
I mean seriously read what you just wrote

 

[Danthrax]

Lucky for us there are still people who GET IT !!!!! its not about acuall numbers because those do not exist for "lost" sales on console or pc its about perspective, if you shout it enough more people pick it up.


Thank god there are still people using there head!

Strange how it happens to be Sega.

 

[Fafalada]

For some reason I'm more accepting of not releasing a PC version if the alternative is anti-piracy measures

I thought people were complaining about lack of PC exclusives in this thread not Console ports.

 

[dimb]

He's got a point. Sadly so.

The only point he has is that there is money to be made on consoles.

Ignoring the PC contingent is usually just stupid if you can ship a polished fun shooter. Just look at Bad Company 2.

 

[subversus]

lol oh so you have anecdotal evidence oh excuse me, n/m then :lol

It doesn't seem strange to you that the last decent PC game they made sold a shit load of copies and the two abortions they put out after that didnt? You don't see some kind of correlation there? I do...

they werent' abortions I enjoyed the hell out of them on PC. So no, I don't see any correlation except people want free games,

 

[Lafiel]

it's because torrents weren't in full rage until 2007.

Why would someone pirate a game like Ut2k4 though.:/

 

[The Faceless Master]

You can find and download PS3 game images, yes, but there's no way to play them on a retail console.

fixed.

 

[shintoki]

Lucky for us there are still people who GET IT !!!!! its not about acuall numbers because those do not exist for "lost" sales on console or pc its about perspective, if you shout it enough more people pick it up.


Thank god there are still people using there head!

Sega is a pretty good publisher, I also like THQ. They seem to be ones that let developers do their own thing. Not to say they make many smart choices, but I never had to worry about buying a PC game from either company.

 

[subversus]

Why would someone pirate a game like Ut2k4 though.:/

Because they could run a cracked server.

 

[dallow_bg]

fixed.

When did we start getting this technical about it?

Are people buying expensive debug machines to play pirated PS3 games now?

 

[StuBurns]

I don't really see the big deal, it seems they're saying there's no point, and GAFs saying "well we don't want your shit anyway". Cool, done. If they're using it as an excuse to bail on the PC, or not, if they're making bad games, no one is losing out.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

they werent' abortions I enjoyed the hell out of them on PC. So no, I don't see any correlation except people want free games,

I'm sorry but you are a very misinformed individual about a great many things. You didn't enjoy those shitty games you sir, are a liar.

Next you'll tell me Gears of War PC and UT3 were as good as UT2k4 and then my head will asplode

Because they could run a cracked server.

right I can see the majority of americans doing something like that :lol

 

[subversus]

I'm sorry but you are a very misinformed individual about a great many things. You didn't enjoy those shitty games you sir, are a liar.

well, that's ridiculous, I don't see any point to discuss this with you any further :lol Yes, I hated these games so much that I've beaten Gears twice and spent countless hours playing UT3 on custom maps.

 

[The Faceless Master]

When did we start getting this technical about it?

Are people buying expensive debug machines to play pirated PS3 games now?

people who want to pirate PS3 games are.

 

[subversus]

right I can see the majority of americans doing something like that :lol

pffff, the world isn't USA, especailly when it comes to PC games.

 

[StuBurns]

people who want to pirate PS3 games are.

How do you go about buying a debug PS3 though? I'm sure it's not as simple as going to a shop. And I imagine they're very expensive. Unless you're ripping off a fuckton of software I can't imagine it being worth it.

 

[dallow_bg]

people who want to pirate PS3 games are.

Not just anyone can buy one of course.
And like I said, when did we start getting so technical about it?
I've never seen anyone pull the debug unit card before.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

well, that's ridiculous, I don't see any point to discuss this with you any further :lol Yes, I hated these games so much that I've beaten Gears twice and spent countless hours playing UT3 on custom maps.

OK maybe you did enjoy those shitty games maybe you haven't played many PC FPS or you have some sort of condition, that's fine. I don't understand it at all but ok. cool. Please don't equate the masterpiece of modern first person shooting, UT2k4, to those games again ok? thanks.

 

[dimb]

I don't really see the big deal, it seems they're saying there's no point, and GAFs saying "well we don't want your shit anyway". Cool, done. If they're using it as an excuse to bail on the PC, or not, if they're making bad games, no one is losing out.

They're not bad games. They're just sloppy console ports thrown on a horrendous multiplayer platform (GFW Live) because Epic is essentially eating from Microsoft's hand to keep a flow of good exclusive titles coming to the 360.

Epic has essentially moved from being a PC developer to being a console developer's house pet. It's a mutually beneficial relationship for them and Microsoft, but the consumer ultimately loses out.

 

[StuBurns]

They're not bad games. They're just sloppy console ports thrown on a horrendous multiplayer platform (GFW Live) because Epic is essentially eating from Microsoft's hand to keep a flow of good exclusive titles coming to the 360.

Epic has essentially moved from being a PC developer to being a console developer's house pet. It's a mutually beneficial relationship for them and Microsoft, but the consumer ultimately loses out.

Oh right, well if that's the case I can see people's upset over it. I thought Gears 1 was pretty cool on 360, didn't try the port. As for GFWs, that seems kind of hard to get around when it's a MS published title, not sure why it affected UT though.

The consumer only really loses out if the consumer is a PC gamer though.

 

[vocab]

I lost a lot of respect for Epic Games over the years. They made UT99, one of my favorite games of all time, and now they don't even try to make an effort on PC. Maybe Facebook will save PC gaming, lolololol. Dumb dick.

 

[zugzug]

Gotta love how it had nothing to do with how much Microsoft paid you guys. Piracy is the only reason mentioned. Sorry Epic I have lost respect for you.

 

[Mush]

So, what the hell legitimate evidence does Epic have about their own games that piracy is killing their PC sales?

Games still get pirated if they're bad. It's just the volume that is different.

 

[spwolf]

So, to summarize, Epic has released two games on PC since they started console development.


Gears of War was released a full year later on PC after the 360 version. Anyone who wanted to play it, had already played it.

Unreal Tournament 3 was a huge disappointment for die-hard fans of the series. It was by far my most reviled purchase of 2007. It sold like crap on both consoles and PC



So, what the hell legitimate evidence does Epic have about their own games that piracy is killing their PC sales?

every time that developers say this, you have bunch of people screaming how it is not true... it is quite funny.

I think his point was that developing big budget PC games is not worth it anymore, and that market has moved to smaller games and casual revenue streams such as Facebook.

There is nothing wrong with facebook games or any casual games market such as iPhone... there are shitload of developers making more money on .99c one-action apps than they did ever on PC (both games and software). But you know, for some people it is not just about money, they want to develop what they want, and not what they are being forced to, so they move on to platforms that let them develop that.

 

[DeadTrees]

Tell me this - can you point out a single example, from the last decade, where a publisher bitched about piracy causing poor PC sales after releasing a quality PC version of a multi-platform game simultaneously with the console release?

TG: You're making a push on the consoles now. Is part of that because of the threat of piracy on the PC or is it more about getting the games to as many people as possible?

JOHN CARMACK: Well, it's hard to second guess exactly what the reasons are. You can say piracy. You can say user migration. But the ground truth is just that the sales numbers on the PC are not what they used to be and are not what they are on the consoles. Certainly, piracy is a contributor to that. I also think a lot of the people that bought PC games have bought consoles and are happy with them. We still think the PC is a market worth supporting, but we're not making decision around the PC. It's probably more of the junior partner in the cross-platform strategy, although obviously, our day-to-day development is predominately on the PC.

IGN: How well did Crysis do?

Cevat Yerli: Well, commercially, we had hopes that were not met. But the real expectations were actually met. As a developer we made a profit, so we're happy...We may have failed a little here and there, but overall Crysis I would say it didn't do excellent, but it did good.

But at the end of the day, I think our message is if you're a PC gamer, and you really want to respect the platform, then you should stop pirating. We will see less and less games appearing on the PC, or less and less games pushing the boundaries of PC gaming. Or, in other words, speaking in terms of PC exclusivity, we would only consider full PC exclusives--if the situation continues like this or gets worse--I think we would only consider PC exclusive titles that are either online or multiplayer and no more single-player.

In b4 "bu-bu-buh they aren't publishers, bu-bu-bu Crysis wasn't even released on consoles" and other futile handwaving/goalpost moving.

 

[M°°nblade]

Why are people getting so upset? What Mike says and the moves Epic has made this generation seem plausible.

 

[The Faceless Master]

every time that developers say this, you have bunch of people screaming how it is not true... it is quite funny.

I think his point was that developing big budget PC games is not worth it anymore, and that market has moved to smaller games and casual revenue streams such as Facebook.

There is nothing wrong with facebook games or any casual games market such as iPhone... there are shitload of developers making more money on .99c one-action apps than they did ever on PC (both games and software). But you know, for some people it is not just about money, they want to develop what they want, and not what they are being forced to, so they move on to platforms that let them develop that.

oh, so developers *want* to make simplified, watered down games on consoles, and then when the pc downport sells even worse, they will once again blame piracy, andmaybe the next time, there's no PC version, or it gets Ubi'd... and then it sells even less... etc...

 

[dimb]

Oh right, well if that's the case I can see people's upset over it. I thought Gears 1 was pretty cool on 360, didn't try the port. As for GFWs, that seems kind of hard to get around when it's a MS published title, not sure why it affected UT though.

The consumer only really loses out if the consumer is a PC gamer though.

UT had it's own set of problems. Awkward art, shoe-horned server browser, sloppy connection issues, poor weapon/vehicle balance, and it came up against a number of shooters that were just better.

PC shooter fans didn't have any reason to play a new UT that was just a step back from older deathmatch games, even ones made by Epic. On the PC anyone into these kind of games can still find a populated server for Quake III or UT2k4, so why migrate to the new $50 version? For the same price they can get something new out of Team Fortress 2 or Modern Warfare, both released in the same time frame.

In the console space developers have a much easier time getting away with incremental improvements because the userbase is always looking for something new. It's definitely more work to be involved in the PC space, but the ones who are successful really reap the benefits. Epic is really just taking the easy way out.

 

[StuBurns]

In the console space developers have a much easier time getting away with incremental improvements because the userbase is always looking for something new. It's definitely more work to be involved in the PC space, but the ones who are successful really reap the benefits. Epic is really just taking the easy way out.

Who are these developers who are reaping the rewards? Valve, Blizzard... That's about all I can think of. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't believe many PC focused 'hardcore' developers are selling more copies of their games than Epic are on 360.

 

[Thetallywacker]

People started playing MMO's. Lost touch with the core and moved on to consoles. They get old fast. It will happen again.

 

[Pooya]

Epic didn't make many PC games to begin with, there was UT every 3-4 years to showcase Unreal Engine and that was it, UT is pretty much irrelevant these days. They can blame piracy for low sales of UT3 on PC but it didn't sell much on 360 and PS3 too. the game wasn't good.

 

[zugzug]

best response from the post a little up was from John Carmack. I even liked Cervat reponse.

the response from Mike Capps, came across as shoving a 5 finger fist into our face and telling us to like it. Especially when we know Microsoft paid a huge amount of money to Epic. So Epic can curl up and die in a fire.

Other poster asks us why we get upset. Cuz homie they stopped being real with us and shoved Public Speak into our mouths after sleeping with us for over a decade. Yeah bitch betrayed us yo! Bitch needs to be ......

 

[Aaron]

SNK.

That's said, they're pretty much the only one I can think of, and a unique case.

What? The end of the original SNK had nothing to do with piracy. They were bought by a terrible company that screwed them eight ways from Sunday, leaving them with a debt (which SNK didn't actually accumulate) that forced them to close.

 

[godhandiscen]

Guess you can't blame them, though I never recall hearing about an Epic PC game doing poorly because of piracy.

They make the most money on the engine licenses. A PC focused engine might not be the best when games sell better on consoles.


Also, it doesn't matter if piracy by itself killed PC gaming, if you are a fucking pirate, you are part of the problem.

 

[adamsapple]

You wouldn't download a Brumack.

 

[M°°nblade]

oh, so developers *want* to make simplified, watered down games on consoles, and then when the pc downport sells even worse, they will once again blame piracy, andmaybe the next time, there's no PC version, or it gets Ubi'd... and then it sells even less... etc...

If PC games kept selling alright, developers wouldn't had to make simplified, watered down consolegames in the first place.
If I was a publisher, I would stop making PC versions as well because releasing a PC version means you sustain a culture and an audience of pirates which would, maybe, buy the console version of the game instead. I think that releasing PC versions indirectly hurts game sales in general.

 

[lsslave]

Edit:

Due to concern of other users both publically and privately (I do appreciate that you guys care enough about the community to not want bans) I will remove this post.

Suffice it to say it was a rant about the benefits of piracy outweighing the detriments of it, and how if it were to be embraced it would benefit all industries as a whole.

I used evidence involving myself (I know of many others but I would never implicate anyone, though as a Canadian its such a grey area anyhow) which is what caused concern but i do understand people's position.

Also note: EA's strategy I used in this, rewarding the new buyers and selling to pirates (DLC) and 2nd hand purchasers (vouchers in new copies). Its a good strategy, should be embraced, and definitely goes in the "reward your best customers" side.

Still, thank for caring guys, I removed it for safety. Shame, I enjoyed the stance, but really you can never tell what a mod might not appreciate. I should stand my ground, but I will stand it in real life where I can refute my battle in court if I must, GAF mods are judge/jury/executioner :lol (I kid I kid, I love!)

 

[StuBurns]

If PC games kept selling alright, developers wouldn't had to make simplified, watered down consolegames in the first place.
If I was a publisher, I would stop making PC versions as well because releasing a PC version means you sustain a culture and an audience of pirates which would, maybe, buy the console version of the game instead. I think that releasing PC versions indirectly hurt game sales in general.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but it's it pretty much piss easy to run pirate games on 360? And then it's just disc images. I imagine PC game piracy is a headache with serial codes, cracks, patch issues etc.

I don't really believe piracy is the main issue with disappointing sales, and I don't know what the problem is, but it doesn't really matter either way. The games aren't selling as well as publishers would like, so a lot of them are bailing out, that's their decision. The publishers are not wrong. If they say it's not worth their time and money to support PC, they shouldn't.

lsslave I think that post breaks some GAF rules, might want to remove it.

 

[dimb]

Who are these developers who are reaping the rewards? Valve, Blizzard... That's about all I can think of. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't believe many PC focused 'hardcore' developers are selling more copies of their games than Epic are on 360.

Those are really the only two developers still producing big budget PC exclusive titles. Crysis did really well. So did The Sims 3. Dragon Age, while not entirely exclusive, was developed for the PC first and foremost, and it did well for itself. Later this year Civ 5 will sell boatloads.

There is a market out there for big budget PC games, and because the market is usually so empty it is much easier for these games to stand out and really develop a consistent fanbase that turns other people on to the game.

I don't think anyone is calling for Epic to abandon the console market. Gamers are spread across more unique platforms than ever. But Epic's PC efforts are lackluster, hand-offs to other developers as a port, or completely absent.

 

[Celine]

What? The end of the original SNK had nothing to do with piracy. They were bought by a terrible company that screwed them eight ways from Sunday, leaving them with a debt (which SNK didn't actually accumulate) that forced them to close.

Yeah but they were bought because they were in bad financial condition ( althought it sn't piracy what brought them there ).
Also,

 

[M°°nblade]

Maybe I'm mistaken, but it's it pretty much piss easy to run pirate games on 360? And then it's just disc images. I imagine PC game piracy is a headache with serial codes, cracks, patch issues etc.

I don't really believe piracy is the main issue with disappointing sales, and I don't know what the problem is, but it doesn't really matter either way. The games aren't selling as well as publishers would like, so a lot of them are bailing out, that's their decision. The publishers are not wrong. If they say it's not worth their time and money to support PC, they shouldn't.

It doesn't matter whether 360 games are easy to pirate as well or if piracy is the main culprit of low PC game sales. Because, in the end, 360 games sell better and that's all that would matter to me if I were a publisher.