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[dimb]

Piracy is not like counterfeiting at all. The value of the product in the marketplace is not effected by a duplicated digital copy. Additionally there is no intent to deceive a consumer.

 

[ghst]

I think it is just a burned out genre. Between Quake and Unreal, I just think that FPS games have become more interesting online and have evolved, and that specific itch has been either met or has been surpassed with Counterstrike, Halo, TF2 and Call of Duty.

evolved to a point where the base skill mechanics are reduced to mere semi-automatic formality in order to facilitate a joyless time dependant collectathon.

 

[subversus]

It's like saying diarrea is the same as vomiting because you expell stuffs from your body, but they're really quite different

I think your analogy is quite right. Both diarrea and vomiting are exactly same in their essence and result - you suffer as toxins leave your body. So by this analogy you've proved that piracy and theft are basically the same at the end of the day. Both counterfeiting and theft are breaking-the-law activities, therefore should be punished.

 

[Mael]

I think your analogy is quite right. Both diarrea and vomiting are exactly same in their essence and result - you suffer as toxins leaves your body. So by this analogy you've proved that piracy and theft are basically the same at the end of the day. Both counterfeiting and theft are breaking-the-law activities, therefore should be punished.

except you don't use the same stuffs to cure both symptoms AT ALL, that's where I was getting.

And indeed there's a difference counterfeiting and digital 'pracy' but it's sure as hell closer to theft

And to me digital 'piracy' is indeed breaking the law (when the law define it as such, there could be some counrties where that's not the case), but it's more parking ticket and less like murder if you ask me

Piracy is not like counterfeiting at all. The value of the product in the marketplace is not effected by a duplicated digital copy. Additionally there is no intent to deceive a consumer.

Are you sure it's not affected at all?
Why do you think they're not charging 60 bucks for pc games?
And if you're smuggling counterfeited cigarettes people buying them sure as hell know they're not buying the same product, just the mere fact that they're dealing with a smuggler shoudl be enough.
Now highway counterfeiting in brick&mortar shops is something else entirely (and also have a counterpart in our gaming world).

 

[gofreak]

Hold your horses, because you repeat it doesn't mean it's true.
There's a reason we consider pirates actually pirates and it's not because of the eye patch I tell you.
Digital piracy is at worst COUNTERFEITING, because like this piracy nobody lose an actual copy of the product but gets another products that's a COPY of the original.
And there's laws against COUNTERFEITNG that are pretty steep actually.

By making the analogy that piracy is theft you're defeating your whole argument because it shows you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

It's like saying diarrea is the same as vomiting because you expell stuffs from your body, but they're really quite different

I knew this would come up, but in my opinion, it effectively makes no difference on a moral ground even if it distinguishes it on a legal ground.

If I make a piece of software, and you're taking it any way other than through the terms I offer, I would consider it to be effectively theft. Whether you took it out of my digital store directly, or copied it off your mate's CD, or copied it off a networked repository. I should have the exclusive rights to distribute it under the terms I stipulate. Whether you took it from me directly or from someone else...it would make much difference to me. And it's difficult in this context for the person who does the taking to say 'I didn't know the person I took it from wasn't authorised to give it to me for free'...

 

[Fafalada]

Suffice it to say it was a rant about the benefits of piracy outweighing the detriments of it, and how if it were to be embraced it would benefit all industries as a whole.

Look at non-Japan asian countries 10-15 years ago for evidence of what "embracing" piracy does to the industry.
Also look at them NOW for evidence of what business models that make piracy irrelevant can do in terms of revenue generation.

 

[C4Lukins]

evolved to a point where the base skill mechanics are reduced to mere semi-automatic formality in order to facilitate a joyless time dependant collectathon.

I guess you could argue that point with modern Call of Duty and the various TF2 updates, but the other two examples do not really apply. And even then I would argue that both Call of Duty and TF2 contain the aspects of Unreal and Quake at a certain level, but then do so much more. Unreal would be the exception in that it had so many cool modes. But that actual extremely fast paced hop and shoot gameplay just wore thin with people after so many iterations.

 

[TheYanger]

I will agree with you there, they have NO obligations.

As a consumer I stand by my rights though, if I want something and they do not provide it I feel there is little reason for me to place my dollar in that product.

I feel no sympathy for a company that goes bankrupt for providing terrible products. As I grow older (and suffer through poverty at the moment *we're talking the legal definition of poverty, if it wasn't for my family I'd be on the street right now*) I have learned that every dollar I have in my entire life is worth something.

It is up to the company, the marketing, etc. to incetivize me to spend my income. IF they can not get me to let go of my money then I see no reason why they need it. Companies whose games bomb but did little-to-no advertising I feel no sympathy for, you can't just throw things at a wall and watch which one sticks in any market.

The world is an economic rollercoaster, but GAF is so much of a minority that in reality essentially no ones opinion on here matters (note: GAF hype games that don't sell, GAF hypes some wretchedly abysmal music also..., TV GAF HYPE FAIL TIME! etc....)

GAF's influence is really minor, in fact its discussions like this that keep me on the site. With that in mind, it is through GAF I have discovered some very amazing pieces of content I would never have learned of/cared for in the first place (see: Pushing Daisies, Valkyria Chronicles) and there are some very bright minds that enter this site.

There is also a hive-mind that needs to break... but it probably wont.

Back to the intial statement though, companies can't expect people to sell their content. I am not a paid advertiser, I don't give a shit who buys their game. I don't even buy multiplayer games because I don't count on communities to sustain (MAG being free of course, and much loved) and if I do I wait to be sure it will sustain.

That's the whole point - you don't have to buy it if you don't want to. That does NOT mean you get to go and be a butthurt little baby and get the product anyway. "Screw you epic, I'ma download it ANYWAY! So MEEEEH".

Piracy is not like counterfeiting at all. The value of the product in the marketplace is not effected by a duplicated digital copy. Additionally there is no intent to deceive a consumer.

The value in the marketplace IS affected. You're not limiting the physical supply of product, but you are reducing the potential market for it, and the creativity and time that the devs put into the game are marketed goods. The cost of this is subsidized accross all copies of the game, if people don't buy copies (if they steal them) then this is increasing the overhead on every legitimately sold copy, and you are then, in fact, raising the price for everyone else, or forcing the publisher/developers to reduce their own profits to offer it at the same price, either way, you are directly causing a loss.

It IS theft.

 

[SuperAngelo64]

What the fuck is 'Epic'?

 

[Combichristoffersen]

What the fuck is 'Epic'?

A Faith No More song

 

[Mael]

I knew this would come up, but in my opinion, it effectively makes no difference on a moral ground even if it distinguishes it on a legal ground.

If I make a piece of software, and you're taking it any way other than through the terms I offer, I would consider it to be effectively theft. Whether you took it out of my digital store directly, or copied it off your mate's CD, or copied it off a networked repository. I should have the exclusive rights to distribute it under the terms I stipulate. Whether you took it from me directly or from someone else...it would make much difference to me. And it's difficult in this context for the person who does the taking to say 'I didn't know the person I took it from wasn't authorised to give it to me for free'...

Yeah but words have their importance it's like saying rape is like murder since it deals with the same judiciary instances and they're both fucking evil.
Yet if you go in a argument saying that rape is wrong and nobody shoudl do it, you don't go saying it's first degree murder and people shoudl be hanged for it.

It IS theft.

In the same way that rape is murder.
Or that Corruption is Treason

 

[C4Lukins]

A Faith No More song

It is also a division of Sony music.

 

[Teknopathetic]

"evolved to a point where the base skill mechanics are reduced to mere semi-automatic formality in order to facilitate a joyless time dependant collectathon."


100% correct.

 

[Combichristoffersen]

It is also a devision of Sony music.

It is also a word commonly used to describe the following things:

• Lord of the Rings
• Manowar albums
• Bans delivered by bish
• A form of poetry
• The size of an average NeoGAF peins

 

[AniHawk]

Pirates! I knew it was them. Even when it was the bears, I knew it was them.

 

[Aaron]

"evolved to a point where the base skill mechanics are reduced to mere semi-automatic formality in order to facilitate a joyless time dependant collectathon."


100% correct.

Wait... is this yet another Torchlight topic?

 

[gofreak]

Yeah but words have their importance it's like saying rape is like murder since it deals with the same judiciary instances and they're both fucking evil.
Yet if you go in a argument saying that rape is wrong and nobody shoudl do it, you don't go saying it's first degree murder and people shoudl be hanged for it.

I think that's a bad analogy. Rape and murder aren't anything like the same things.

Theft and 'knowingly taking an unauthorised copy' do effectively result in the same thing in so far as it undermines the fundamental right of the vendor to control the terms under which its product is offered and distributed, and results in the 'taker' getting something for free. The only difference between theft and 'knowing taking a unauthorised copy' is whose infinite-replicating-machine you're taking from, not so much in the net result. The net results of rape and murder are very different.

 

[SapientWolf]

I think scapegoating piracy for their lackluster PC performance is intellectually lazy. There's a lot of factors at play, including the lack of a rental option, no second hand market, and a gamer migration from the PC to the consoles. The PS3 doesn't have piracy like the 360 does yet the games don't always sell better on the PS3.

 

[subversus]

I think scapegoating piracy for their lackluster PC performance is intellectually lazy. There's a lot of factors at play, including the lack of a rental option, no second hand market

yes, that'd clearly help sales.

 

[lsslave]

That's the whole point - you don't have to buy it if you don't want to. That does NOT mean you get to go and be a butthurt little baby and get the product anyway. "Screw you epic, I'ma download it ANYWAY! So MEEEEH".



The value in the marketplace IS affected. You're not limiting the physical supply of product, but you are reducing the potential market for it, and the creativity and time that the devs put into the game are marketed goods. The cost of this is subsidized accross all copies of the game, if people don't buy copies (if they steal them) then this is increasing the overhead on every legitimately sold copy, and you are then, in fact, raising the price for everyone else, or forcing the publisher/developers to reduce their own profits to offer it at the same price, either way, you are directly causing a loss.

It IS theft.

#1 I have NEVER, at any point, in this thread said that people should pirate it to own it. I said pirating gives people a chance to experience it to determine if they should buy it. Youtube/Myspace/etc. give the exact same experience, and work quite well for me.

You are fighting a different argument, and a stupid one, and saying "butthurt little baby" is probably the most ridiculous and stupid argumentative point I have ever heard in my entire life. You outdid godwining, congrats.

#2 You are completely naive if you EVER think that other consumers pay higher prices because of piracy. If there was NO piracy at all, no one EVER downloaded, etc. what would happen? Prices would be HIGHER. I'd be willing to gamble a lot on that.

Businesses make it their perogative to fuck over customers. Don't think they are your friends, they hate every aspect of you except for your money. *For arguments sake, there are some, few, but some artists/businesses/execs/etc. that absolutely love their fans. These guys get exception for sheer awesomeness. In Gaming Atlus definitely seems to appreciate their fans*

Edit:

yes, that'd clearly help sales.

You bet your ass it would. You know how many people buy games they know they can sell if they don't like? Yeah, you're crazy if you don't think rentals/2nd hand helps a market at all. Absolutely crazy :lol

 

[Dirtyboy]

The problem isn't piracy, it's the PC itself. The hardware changes way too fast, just look at how many versions of video cards are released literally every few months. The average gamer doesn't have the time or money to mess with constantly upgrading and maintaining a decent gaming rig.

If you're a game developer are you going to sell on the PC, where unless you have a mainstream game (Sims, MMO, or casual), it will be considered a "hit" if it breaks 100,000 copies and lucky to break 250,000, OR sell on a console where you could sell a couple million?

 

[Lovely Salsa]

I don't blame em, pc IS dead.

The last time I upgraded my pc I thought to myself, was it really worth it just to play the same games but with higher res and fps? There are hardly any good pc exclusive games getting released and I don't see that changing.

 

[SapientWolf]

yes, that'd clearly help sales.

Rental outlets buy games like everyone else. It's also a lot easier to justify paying full price for a game at launch if you have the option of getting half your money back.

 

[subversus]

The problem isn't piracy, it's the PC itself. The hardware changes way too fast, just look at how many versions of video cards are released literally every few months. The average gamer doesn't have the time or money to mess with constantly upgrading and maintaining a decent gaming rig.

that's bullshit. You don't have to upgrade in the current console-centric market, if you don't want to play all games maxed out in 1080 at 60 fps. 2 year old hardware rapes almost any console port today.

 

[C4Lukins]

"evolved to a point where the base skill mechanics are reduced to mere semi-automatic formality in order to facilitate a joyless time dependant collectathon."


100% correct.

I would love to see this explained. How is Counterstrike a "collectathon?" How is Halo CE through 3 a "collectathon?" TF2 became one with the updates but before that people seemed to enjoy the gameplay for what it was. COD4 is the only game that truly fits that bill in that it required playing the multiplayer a lot in order to unlock actual advantages in the game, and that was not the first multiplayer COD as you well know.

And I am not even arguing that these games are better or more advanced then Quake or Unreal, which I both loved back in the day, but the formula got stale. The newer games played differently, offered a different experience, but also had modes that emulated the fundamental fun aspects of Unreal and Quake.

 

[Marc :D]

They release Gears of War late, and Unreal Tournament 3 is a disappointment. Fuck them if they don't have the slightest bit of self criticality when it comes to how their games sell.


Console games obviously sell better, that's without question, but it's also without question that the quality of their own games and the dates on which they choose to release them are far more to blame.

Could not have said it better.

 

[CecilRousso]

Its maybe easier to be succesful in console, but if you cant be succesful on pc, then you are doing something wrong.

 

[SapientWolf]

that's bullshit. You don't have to upgrade in the current console-centric market, if you don't want to play all games maxed out in 1080 at 60 fps. 2 year old hardware rapes almost any console port today.

You're right. Even a decent 4 year old card would allow you to play every PC game out there. The problem is that the mainstream hasn't embraced PC upgrades. You can't just walk into a Wal-Mart or Gamestop and buy an 8800GT.

 

[benjipwns]

I don't blame em, pc IS dead.

The last time I upgraded my pc I thought to myself, was it really worth it just to play the same games but with higher res and fps? There are hardly any good pc exclusive games getting released and I don't see that changing.

Someone didn't look hard enough.

 

[LCfiner]

Someone didn't look hard enough.

You know, to people who don't want a glut of top down strategy games, there's really not a whole lot to get excited about on that list.

Anyway, Epic's comment about piracy may have been misplaced but there really shouldn't be much arguing over where the money is for most publishers nowadays. it's on consoles, not PC.

PC gaming isn't dead. it's just not driving the industry much.

 

[Plasma]

I don't mind if they bring Gears of War 2 over anyway.

Epic have done loads for PC gaming, especially with the UDK.

 

[sn00zer]

People who pirate games are totally deaf to any news of this sort. (LOL Yur games dont do well because they arent good) But seriously I do not know ANYONE who has a high end PC and hasnt pirated movies/games/apps of some sort. Guess what guys it does kill profits and makes people not want to make movies/games/apps

 

[Woo-Fu]

I'm waiting for them to switch exclusively to iphone development. After all, that is where the money is and 2 out 3 consoles this gen are plagued by piracy.

 

[obonicus]

Name one dev that was killed because of piracy.

Go on do it!

How would you do that, when the very premise of piracy hurting sales is vehemently denied here?

 

[ymmv]

People who pirate games are totally deaf to any news of this sort. (LOL Yur games dont do well because they arent good) But seriously I do not know ANYONE who has a high end PC and hasnt pirated movies/games/apps of some sort. Guess what guys it does kill profits and makes people not want to make movies/games/apps

yes indeed. People who pirate games are convinced it's a victimless crime. "It doesn't matter whether people pirate games since they weren't gonna buy a copy anyway". If devs go under, it's never because of widespread piracy but only because their games sucked or they didn't move with the times. Again, the pirates have no fault, the developers or the publishers are really to blame.

The reason why I dislike piracy is a bit different. I spend hundreds of euros each year on my gaming hobby and I simply don't like it when cheapskates with objectionable morals get to play games for free.

 

[Starchasing]

Oon the other hand, a president of another company said this

With regards to IP protection, I do not find a lot of meaning in calculating up the amount of damage due to piracy. While we may be able to calculate the damage by “number of downloads” multiplied by “their market value,” it does not necessarily mean that all the downloader had the purchase intention but quit due to illegal downloading. This calculation only gives us a virtual amount of damages, not the actual one in market. As I believe it’s not very meaningful to calculate them, we have not dug deeper and have no such plans to do so.

Some of you may have seen media coverage like “R4 is to blame” or “Piracy using illegally-copying devices like R4 derailed the software market,” and we cannot deny the alleged influence. Europe has the second most serious piracy situation following Asia. But we should not blame it as the sole reason for that

What has shrunk is the whole handheld hardware market in Europe. Our understanding is that it is due to shortage of hit titles, which we could find in home console market.

Firstly our view on industry situation is, in short, that “consumers are getting tired of any commodities much more quickly than before.” Across the video game industry as a whole, there is a strong trend that consumers get tired of various products in a shorter and shorter period.

 

[vodka-bull]

Oh man, please not this again.

1 copy pirated doesn't equal -1 sale...

Pretty interesting take on piracy (on the PC) from those guys who offered that humble bundle, if you're interested;

http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/05/Saving-a-penny----pirating-the-Humble-Indie-Bundle

http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/05/Another-view-of-game-piracy

Very interesting, thank you.

I don't blame em, pc IS dead.

 

[Combichristoffersen]

Someone didn't look hard enough.

Looked through that list, and there were about 14 games I'm interested in. The PC isn't dead, but it's just not offering all that much of interest to me.

 

[Archie]

As a tangent, I just downloaded the Settlers 7 demo and come to realize, it apparently comes with their inane "always online" DRM. Why the fuck does a demo need DRM? If companies want to tackle piracy, they need to accept it will always be there and find ways to add value to the customer (ala Valve) instead of treating everyone like a criminal.

Looked through that list, and there were about 14 games I'm interested in. The PC isn't dead, but it's just not offering all that much of interest to me.

You know I could present the same argument for any console or handheld. Just because the games don't interest you don't mean there aren't any interesting games.

 

[Combichristoffersen]

You know I could present the same argument for any console or handheld. Just because the games don't interest you don't mean there aren't any interesting games.

What? I said they weren't interesting to me. I said nothing about them not being interesting to anyone else.

 

[maniac-kun]

germany still remains the strongest pc market

 

[Prime crotch]

if they hadn't botched the UT3 release maybe they would have players on it even today

 

[Spookie]

if they hadn't botched UT3 maybe they would have players on it even today

Corrected for you. ;D

 

[I <3 Memes]

This is nothing but Epic trolling PC gaming again. Look I'm sure Gears of War has enjoyable gameplay but as a complete package the game fails. It's as derivative as most of Ubisofts underwhelming gaming experiences lately. Epic couldn't hang with the big boys like Valve, Crytek, Bioware, and Bethesda so they got out. Good on them, that a smart business decision. They saw that outside of multi-player they couldn't offer an engaging experience on the single player side. And since their multi-player games like Unreal were not good enough for the PC crowd anymore they went where they could actually sell games. Like I said it was a smart business decision by them.

But other companies that can still make games good enough to appeal to the more discerning PC audience are still selling games on PC. That doesn't include Epic.

Somebody here mentioned that Battlefield Bad Company outsold the PS3 and 360 versions. Well I dont know if the multi-player has been cracked or not, but I just went to pirate bay (which i assume is still the #1 source for pirated games?) and Battlefield Bad Company is the most pirated game there right now. Seldom does a pirated game = a lost sale. Great games still sell like hotcakes on PC. Epic's games wouldnt sell like hotcakes on PC. The reason why is obvious.

 

[LCfiner]

This is nothing but Epic trolling PC gaming again. Look I'm sure Gears of War has enjoyable gameplay but as a complete package the game fails. It's as derivative as most of Ubisofts underwhelming gaming experiences lately. Epic couldn't hang with the big boys like Valve, Crytek, Bioware, and Bethesda so they got out. Good on them, that a smart business decision. They saw that outside of multi-player they couldn't offer an engaging experience on the single player side. And since their multi-player games like Unreal were not good enough for the PC crowd anymore they went where they could actually sell games. Like I said it was a smart business decision by them.

But other companies that can still make games good enough to appeal to the more discerning PC audience are still selling games on PC. That doesn't include Epic.

Somebody here mentioned that Battlefield Bad Company outsold the PS3 and 360 versions. Well I dont know if the multi-player has been cracked or not, but I just went to pirate bay (which i assume is still the #1 source for pirated games?) and Battlefield Bad Company is the most pirated game there right now. Seldom does a pirated game = a lost sale. Great games still sell like hotcakes on PC. Epic's games wouldnt sell like hotcakes on PC. The reason why is obvious.

goddamn :lol

people really feel this way? barf.

 

[MrPing1000]

I'd blame it on Epic not making any really good games. Unreal Tournament has been surpassed in the multiplayer landscape and 3 was all kinds of meh.

Epic are not missed. (But thanks for the engines I guess.)

 

[Combichristoffersen]

I'd blame it on Epic not making any really good games.

Lies. They made Jazz Jackrabbit. I don't really care for anything they've made after that (sorry Cliff!).

 

[Nirolak]

While I definitely agree with the overall point of the image, I can't help but find a fair amount of irony in that last row.

-Relic's next game is console exclusive.
-Supreme Commander 2 was basically "consolized" to death.
-Bioshock is basically a "consolization" of System Shock.
-UT3 given Epic's comments in the OP.
-A fair share of the PC community seems less than thrilled about Crysis 2.
-Spore has more non-PC games than it does PC games at this point.
-Duke Nukem Forever is finally dead.

StarCraft 2 will undoubtedly be a vast success, and it is really the standout PC title here. However, that it is the exception instead of the rule does say something.

 

[Mael]

I think that's a bad analogy. Rape and murder aren't anything like the same things.

Theft and 'knowingly taking an unauthorised copy' do effectively result in the same thing in so far as it undermines the fundamental right of the vendor to control the terms under which its product is offered and distributed, and results in the 'taker' getting something for free. The only difference between theft and 'knowing taking a unauthorised copy' is whose infinite-replicating-machine you're taking from, not so much in the net result. The net results of rape and murder are very different.

the result is quite different from theft and digital copy too, don't make me get out the Nina Paley's video that explains it quite clearly.
If you steal something there's 1 item left, if you copy it there's 1 more that you can use.
I mean that couldn't be more different, again arguing that they're the same is basically arguing that all crimes are the same and that we should have 2 words for all behaviors :
- good deeds
- bad deeds

and potential money is NOT real money so the guy who got pirated lost potential money NOT real money.
After all what guarranty do we have that the guy wouldn't have gotten a meteor up his head and couldn't get the money in the hand.
I mean with potential we can discuss whatever the hell we want until we're blue in the face. That still won't change the fact that unicorns would be obliterated by dragons in a fist fight.
rape and murder are different, salt and water are different, you and me are 2 diiferent persons, digital 'piracy' and theft are different.
Somehow I don't see anybody arguing that copyright infrigement is theft (or a specific part of theft) either.

I repeat you're only undermining your point here by trying to pass 1 as the other (or worse you're making theft look less important than it really is).
We could use your very arguement to say that Corruption is Treason and have all corrupted officials shot while that would certainly help curbing corruption that certainly wouldn't be anything to do with justice.

now if you want to bag theft with copyright infrigement and counterfeiting and call that bag 'bad deeds to do with property' be my guest but don't be surprised when people point and laugh.

 

[ymmv]

Somebody here mentioned that Battlefield Bad Company outsold the PS3 and 360 versions. Well I dont know if the multi-player has been cracked or not, but I just went to pirate bay (which i assume is still the #1 source for pirated games?) and Battlefield Bad Company is the most pirated game there right now. Seldom does a pirated game = a lost sale. Great games still sell like hotcakes on PC. Epic's games wouldnt sell like hotcakes on PC. The reason why is obvious.

Once again, the "piracy is a victimless crime" argument.

It's true that not every pirated game is a lost sale. Pirates can get their hands on every single game out there so they often become collectors who amass a great number of games but play and enjoy only a very small selection of games. Most of those games will get 30-60 minutes of playtime and are then sent to the recycle bin. But it's also true that pirates are lost customers because only a very small number of pirates buy a copy of they games they do enjoy playing. Of course the pirate still has a good explanation why they were entitled to a free copy: "The game was too expensive!" Or "I only buy games with hundreds of hours of gameplay. This game was a load of crap because I finished it in only 20 hours!"