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[yurinka]

no, for multiplatform games, devs use the lowest common denominator, so it would be PCs with traditional HDDs.

I think this will be only the case for crossgen games. I assume 3rd party next gen only multi games will require on PC an SSD with an speed relatively similar to the Series X (compressed) as lowest common denominator for storage.

Lower quality assets on a more powerful PC?? I don't know if it's Sony's SSD CoolAid doing its work, but PCs don't have a lack of memory that the consoles are making up for, so how can anyone come to this conclusion?

It isn't just the SSD. There are many I/O system related tweaks or custom hardware in to remove bottlenecks to stream stuff from SSD to VRAM increasing its speed and bandwith, in addition to optimize memory management and also custom chip features (that I assume may end being standard in RDNA 2 or RDNA 3) to handle stuff like how the big assets are shrinked down and culled.

This means that many work previously done in CPU or GPU now is handled by separate dedicated chips, like decompressing the data streamed from disk, culling, part of the memory management, etc. Which means that they now can dedicate more CPU/GPU work to what it matters, their usage is more optimized.

Same goes with memory: streaming data so fast instead of having in memory the assets of the next minute or 30 seconds (case of HDD), now with the same memory amount they only need to store the assets for the next 1 second or 0.5 seconds. So they are way less, which means that they can be way more detailed than before to take advantage of the free space, or that they can put more stuff on screen. Now the amount of detail is so big that details goes beyond of what the resolution can offer so more horsepower wouldn't mean now more detail (but they could use it for other things like RT/lighting/etc).

So they optimized way more the memory usage and streaming to a point that helps taking more advantage of the GPU, getting closer to the theorical maximum performance by showing more detail on screen that previously, because of all these optimizations and bottlenecks removed.

This the reason of why Tim said PS5 is more advanced than current top notch PCs. And why may show more detail than other slightly powerful machines that can't stream stuff so fast. Without all this custom hardware you'll need more CPU/GPU and specially more RAM to achieve the same results, which obviously -if not already possible today- will be possible in the future high end PCs, which are way more expensive and represent a tiny portion of the market (obviously over time will become more common and cheaper).

 

[a multicultural team of v]

You know, I would be really interested in the developers point of view. It would be fascinating to hear their take on how hard it would be to change their code up to accommodate a much bigger pipeline aka less bottle neck. How much work would it take? How much more development time is added? hypothetically speaking of course.

I honestly have no idea. I mean how much work is it to port a game to Xbox period, yet it rarely happens. Its either much more than we think or the sales projections are really that low.

 

[Knitted Knight]

Are was replying to someone that said "Scaled down for PC" so did he generalize, or did I?

He generalized. You can't make that claim otherwise. You didn't clarify in your response to that if your intent revolves around a specific set up you personally think that claim does not necessarily apply. Thus it comes off that way too.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Put in mind that PS5 demo was more of a show off, it was using raw 8K assets, uncompressed, with insane 16K shadows! The shockingly amazing Quixel Rebirth trailer was using -5.3x less quality with 4K assets compressed by 25%:





Would any other system be capable of doing like PS5? No, but it can scale down accordingly.

They mentioned that games are being made with that high fidelity in this video, just watch this 1080p is till way superior than any 4K current gen out their on high end PC's. And yes, I love 8K TV's and they're superior to 4K, and 4K is insanely better than 1080p, but don't give me native 4K with shit assets and overall cheap image just to hit that native 4K claim:





And this is UE4 in 2019, not UE5.

 

[Coulomb_Barrier]

'Scaling down to XSX and PC'
is the sentence of the week.

Goes down like good liquor

 

[llien]

2020, when faster hard drive is more important than faster GPU.
2020, when hard drive can be so fast it disrupts your demo and you need to rewrite your code.

Epic.

 

[ToadMan]

Devs won't create new textures just for a single platform.

That's correct. Devs start with the highest quality they can get - 8K these days. That can go on to PS5 direct, or if they need the memory, downscale to 4k.

Xsx gets the downscale from the PS5 for its half speed drive and reduced VRAM.

PCs they'll just bump the memory minimum requirement or let people turn down the graphics to match xsx.

 

[Coolwhhip]

 

[ToadMan]

I thought the whole point of UE5 was to not have to worry about the quality of textures and assets and it would just scale down to whatever quality can be used on different sets of hardware?

So basically, they could theoretically just use those better textures for PS5 by default and UE5 would automatically downscale it on other platforms.
At least, that's what I got from the UE5 tech-demo.

That's correct - assuming the UE5 demo using the terms accurately. They specifically said (for their demo) no mips, no worrying about LOD and "boundless" geometry (ok that's probably a bit of hype - there's a limit somewhere) - the engine takes care of what makes it through the rendering pipe.

 

[ToadMan]

Lower quality assets on a more powerful PC?? I don't know if it's Sony's SSD CoolAid doing its work, but PCs don't have a lack of memory that the consoles are making up for, so how can anyone come to this conclusion?

PCs have a surfeit of bottlenecks to make up for.

It's not "anyone" who has come to that conclusion - it's Epic themselves.

 

[Self]

Touché buddy, touché...

 

[Bo_Hazem]

'Scaling down to XSX and PC'
is the sentence of the week.

Goes down like good liquor

The faster that people accept it, the faster they can heal.

 

[Ascend]

Thread title is dishonest.

They didn't have to "rewrite part of the Unreal Engine 5 Demo" like stated in the title. They had the rewrite part of the I/O substystem for Unreal Engine (not specified which version, most likely 4). In the process of creating Unreal Engine 5 was when this was done, and the demo is a product of this. Not the other way around.

Just throwing this out there, MS did the same thing for the XSX, i.e. the DirectStorage API.

 

[VideodromeX]

Yup its going to be a long and fun generation when some just cant accept ps5 is better at stuff, its just so hard.

The problem is that XSX is better at everything else and just not SSD speed.

 

[ToadMan]

PC with a 2080Ti and 32GB of system ram

System RAM.... but this demo is streaming straight to VRAM,

Every time someone talks about the PS5, is all about the SSD....SSD... SSD.... and the special SSD. That SDD better make a hell of a difference, otherwise there are going many disappointed gamers out there.

Lets just imagine, what if most 3rd party games run better on the Xbox Series X with a normal SSD...

They won't run better in any practical sense on xsx - nothing to do with SSD, even if they were both still running with HDD. The xsx just doesn't have enough of a power margin over the PS5 for any practical gaming application to perform noticeably better.

The SSD is what will make the bulk of the difference this coming gen because the rest of the hardware cancels out.

 

[Exodia]

Thread title is clickbait and completely wrong.

 

[GlassAwful]

Epic choose PS5 to demo... Sony didn’t lead anything... they didn’t even post anything related in social media.

So you think Epic and only Epic was given permission to show off the PS5 capabilities and Sony had no say in that. This is what your brain put together? Fascinating.

 

[ToadMan]

Just throwing this out there, MS did the same thing for the XSX, i.e. the DirectStorage API.

How do you know? No one has seen this API yet all we have is the name.

Perhaps we'll be waiting for it until 2022 along with the xsex 1st party exclusives...

 

[ToadMan]

The problem is that XSX is better at everything else and just not SSD speed.

Don't leave us hanging! Examples please....

 

[ToadMan]

So you think Epic and only Epic was given permission to show off the PS5 capabilities and Sony had no say in that. This is what your brain put together? Fascinating.

Epic showed off THEIR engine - it happens they chose PS5 to show it, presumably that's where they felt it looked best.

 

[nikolino840]

That's correct. Devs start with the highest quality they can get - 8K these days. That can go on to PS5 direct, or if they need the memory, downscale to 4k.

Xsx gets the downscale from the PS5 for its half speed drive and reduced VRAM.

PCs they'll just bump the memory minimum requirement or let people turn down the graphics to match xsx.

There's no proof that they have to downscale,they can use the extra power of the GPU and that Little extra of the CPU and will be the same

 

[Ascend]

How do you know? No one has seen this API yet all we have is the name.

Because it has clearly been stated that they did this??

The final component in the triumvirate is an extension to DirectX - DirectStorage - a necessary upgrade bearing in mind that existing file I/O protocols are knocking on for 30 years old, and in their current form would require two Zen CPU cores simply to cover the overhead, which DirectStorage reduces to just one tenth of single core.

Inside Xbox Series X: the full specs

This is it. After months of teaser trailers, blog posts and even the occasional leak, we can finally reveal firm, hard …

www.eurogamer.net

That means they rewrote the I/O subsystem.

Any other questions?

 

[Psykodad]

The problem is that XSX is better at everything else and just not SSD speed.

Loading screens, low-res textures and pop-in at native 4K/60fps.

 

[GHG]

Loading screens, low-res textures and pop-in at native 4K/60fps.

Winning is winning though.

I'll take it.

 

[Exodia]

How are you going to stream 10 GB/s of data every frame for best quality assets with low latency and driver overhead ?

You will either need massive RAM to store everything or take a cut to the quality of those assets.

What is your logic to the PC Cool aid ? How much memory will you need for a game that could be easily 100 GB.

How could someone think they could have 100 GB of memory is what is puzzling.

Just using your words back at you.

They ARE NOT streaming 10 GB/s of data every frame. Infact they are rarely streaming AT ALL most of the time.

The amount of false information being spread is completely ridiculous.

Virtual Geometry works the same way as Virtual textures.

As I previously told you you’re not loading 20 million triangles or 10 GB/s at 30fps from storage. Majority of this is happening from memory. You’re only loading in new data coming in that you need and will need in the immediate future. It uses a tile cache just like virtual texturing has a tile cache, the virtual geometry system has a cache. That way if the camera shifts slightly you already have most of the tiles you need. This prevents as much loading as possible like you would in virtual texturing.

 

[geordiemp]

The problem is that XSX is better at everything else and just not SSD speed.

No XSX is weaker at small traingles, high asset streaming type rendering. Deal with it. I think I belive EPIC CEO rather than xbox fan.

Do you know what driver abstraction overhead is, you must of heard absraction and visualisation allot being an xbox gamer...Ps5 has overalk perf much higher than PC. when streaming high quality asets as small triangles.

But XSX is more powerful and more floppies why or why tim........NO

Dont worry, XSX wil have better ray tracing, maybe....

 

[itsjustJEFF]

PCs have a surfeit of bottlenecks to make up for.

It's not "anyone" who has come to that conclusion - it's Epic themselves.

Well it's 2020, Epic is no longer credible and Tim is a big dumdum and Playstation shill.

 

[geordiemp]

They ARE NOT streaming 10 GB/s of data every frame. Infact they are rarely streaming AT ALL.

The amount of false information being spread is completely ridiculous.

Virtual Geometry works the same way as Virtual textures.

As I previously told you you’re not loading 20 million triangles or 10 GB/s at 30fps from storage. Majority of this is happening from memory. You’re only loading in new data coming in that you need and will need in the immediate future. It uses a tile cache just like virtual texturing has a tile cache, the virtual geometry system has a cache. That way if the camera shifts slightly you already have most of the tiles you need. This prevents as much loading as possible like you would in virtual texturing.

The meldowns, I believe Tim sweeny not your fanboy made up FUD....DEAL WITH IT...

Quick, call the discord, here they come

 

[Degree]

Ask yourself why the UE5 demo is under NDA until after Black Friday and Christmas 2020.
Therein lies the answer.

yeah. We had the same back then with PS4. They Also had a demo back then. And look what happened.
UE4 games look and run better on Xbox one X

Put in mind that PS5 demo was more of a show off, it was using raw 8K assets, uncompressed, with insane 16K shadows! The shockingly amazing Quixel Rebirth trailer was using -5.3x less quality with 4K assets compressed by 25%:





Would any other system be capable of doing like PS5? No, but it can scale down accordingly.

thats not gameplay. Just a cinematic. Lol

 

[Slings and Arrows]

You are contradicting yourself. For multiplatform games, devs won't build their games around a single SSD or I/O. They just use the PC SSD as a baseline and call it a day, so that would mean better loading time for PS5, but not better textures. Devs won't create new textures just for a single platform.

Anyway, we will see as soon as the multiplatform games arrive.



yes and thats when devs will use PC SSD as the lowest common denominator and call it a day. No different gameplay, or textures on PS5/XSX. Only better loading times.

Will those games be tied to the xbone or Xbonex, which don't have an SSD?

 

[dr guildo]

"So, you’d take that high-poly ZBrush model as a visual target, then make a lower-poly version of that same model and ‘bake’ the high poly one on top of it as a normal map (which is a bit like putting a lion mask on a labrador and calling it Mufasa,”

https://www.vg247.com/2020/06/03/unreal-engine-5-ps5-xbox-series-x-pc-development/

 

[Degree]

'Scaling down to XSX and PC'
is the sentence of the week.

Goes down like good liquor

oh. This will not age well. Can’t wait for holiday 2020/21

 

[geordiemp]

oh. This will not age well. Can’t wait for holiday 2020/21

PCs will catch up for sure, wonder if some of the new PC cards will have enhanced I/O remains to be seen - there is always a solution somewhere. Not yet though..

 

[ToadMan]

Because it has clearly been stated that they did this??

The final component in the triumvirate is an extension to DirectX - DirectStorage - a necessary upgrade bearing in mind that existing file I/O protocols are knocking on for 30 years old, and in their current form would require two Zen CPU cores simply to cover the overhead, which DirectStorage reduces to just one tenth of single core.

Inside Xbox Series X: the full specs

This is it. After months of teaser trailers, blog posts and even the occasional leak, we can finally reveal firm, hard …

www.eurogamer.net

That means they rewrote the I/O subsystem.

Any other questions?

You’re the one claiming this is equivalent of UE5 tech. That quote says nothing about it.


So again, you’ve pulled out some marketing words to claim this one api will match what Epic have done. An api from MS who, not wishing to be mean here, are not known for their graphics engine wizardry...

They use UE5 for their exclusives (which they haven’t put out for a looooonnnnggg time now) - it wouldn’t surprise me if they’ve been forced to do something get UE5 to run effectively on Xsex.

 

[Exodia]

No XSX is weaker at small traingles, high asset streaming type rendering. Deal with it. I think I belive EPIC CEO rather than xbox fan.

Do you know what driver abstraction overhead is, you must of heard absraction and visualisation allot being an xbox gamer...Ps5 has overalk perf much higher than PC. when streaming high quality asets as small triangles.

But XSX is more powerful and more floppies why or why tim........NO

Dont worry, XSX wil have better ray tracing, maybe....

Consoles always had a unified memory.
His comparison is with PCs not XSX.
XSX also transfers data and decompresses the textures and geometry from storage and sends it directly into the GPU memory without CPU decompression or driver overhead. There is no system memory.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

No XSX is weaker at small traingles, high asset streaming type rendering. Deal with it. I think I belive EPIC CEO rather than xbox fan.

Do you know what driver abstraction overhead is, you must of heard absraction and visualisation allot being an xbox gamer...Ps5 has overalk perf much higher than PC. when streaming high quality asets as small triangles.

But XSX is more powerful and more floppies why or why tim........NO

Dont worry, XSX wil have better ray tracing, maybe....

He's most likely not bribed by Sony:

Tim Sweeney may seem like your average guy. He likes hiking, tinkering with technology, the occasional Diet Coke, and fried chicken from Bojangles’.

However, he is anything but average. Sweeney is the CEO of Epic Games, the company behind “Fortnite” — the popular battle-royale-style video game that raked in over $2.5 billion in 2018. Epic Games also brought games like “Gears of War” into the mainstream.

Sweeney has a net worth of $7 billion, millions of which he has donated to forest conservation efforts.

When it comes to tech execs, Sweeney is one who remains rather low-key. He’s single, unmarried, and doesn’t have any kids. And he’s never been enticed by the flashy trappings of Silicon Valley: Epic Games is based out of Cary, North Carolina, just down the road from Raleigh.

Sweeney’s first-ever job is still his current job, though the responsibilities have changed since founding Epic Games in 1991. Overall, Sweeney describes his life as “simple.” If he means a simple life that has also radically changed the way millions of people play video games online, then, sure — a simple life indeed.

Here’s everything you need to know about Tim Sweeney, CEO of Epic Games.

The life and rise of Tim Sweeney, the billionaire CEO and founder of the company behind 'Fortnite,' Epic Games - Business Insider - moKoKil

Tim Sweeney may seem like your average guy. He likes<a class="moretag" href="https://www.mokokil.com/2019/10/27/the-life-and-rise-of-tim-sweeney-the-billionaire-ceo-and-founder-of-the-company-behind-fortnite-epic-games-business-insider/">Read more</a>

www.mokokil.com

 

[GHG]

https://www.vg247.com/2020/06/03/unreal-engine-5-ps5-xbox-series-x-pc-development/

That labrador quote is sensational.

 

[Ascend]

You’re the one claiming this is equivalent of UE5 tech. That quote says nothing about it.


So again, you’ve pulled out some marketing words to claim this one api will match what Epic have done. An api from MS who, not wishing to be mean here, are not known for their graphics engine wizardry...

They use UE5 for their exclusives (which they haven’t put out for a looooonnnnggg time now) - it wouldn’t surprise me if they’ve been forced to do something get UE5 to run effectively on Xsex.

Exact quote;
"we’ve rewritten our core I/O subsystems for Unreal Engine with the PlayStation 5 in mind. "

Epic bets on Unreal Engine 5 transforming next-gen game development - here's what developers think

We recently got our first glimpse of what video games could look like on PS5 thanks to a tech demo for Unreal Engine 5.

www.vg247.com

My claim;
"They had the rewrite part of the I/O substystem for Unreal Engine"
And
"MS did the same thing for the XSX, i.e. the DirectStorage API. "

What I quoted from Eurogamer says that they rewrote the I/O subsystem for the XSX. So don't you tell me that my quote says nothing about it.

And because of your dishonesty arguing, you will now join my lovely list of being ignored. Goodbye.

 

[geordiemp]

Consoles always had a unified memory.
His comparison is with PCs not XSX.
XSX also transfers data and decompresses the textures and geometry from storage and sends it directly into the GPU memory without CPU decompression or driver overhead. There is no system memory.

You think the MS abstraction layers and file overhead used in all MS consoles and windows todate will be trimmed down to be performant like Ps5.

 

[ToadMan]

There's no proof that they have to downscale,they can use the extra power of the GPU and that Little extra of the CPU and will be the same

No there isn’t because .... SURPRISE!.... the consoles haven’t launched yet so we’re looking at capabilities and predicting outcomes.

If you’re not happy with that, then come back after launch.

Until then, Xsex with half speed SSD - limits texture size and geometry fidelity - and a VRAM limit - again limiting texture size - has some hurdles to overcome to match PS5 streaming performance.

A modest gpu width advantage isn’t going to double texture resolution.

 

[GHG]

PCs will catch up for sure, wonder if some of the new PC cards will have enhanced I/O remains to be seen - there is always a solution somewhere. Not yet though..

DDR5 is round the corner plus AMD and Intel will continue to work on their chipset architecture (and by extension their I/O).

Within a couple of years the new PC hardware will smoke the I/O on the PS5.

 

[ToadMan]

Exact quote;
"we’ve rewritten our core I/O subsystems for Unreal Engine with the PlayStation 5 in mind. "

Epic bets on Unreal Engine 5 transforming next-gen game development - here's what developers think

We recently got our first glimpse of what video games could look like on PS5 thanks to a tech demo for Unreal Engine 5.

www.vg247.com

My claim;
"They had the rewrite part of the I/O substystem for Unreal Engine"
And
"MS did the same thing for the XSX, i.e. the DirectStorage API. "

What I quoted from Eurogamer says that they rewrote the I/O subsystem for the XSX. So don't you tell me that my quote says nothing about it.

And because of your dishonesty arguing, you will now join my lovely list of being ignored. Goodbye.

Hehe.

The engine sits on the O/S. What MS and UE are working on are at a different level of abstraction.

See ya!

 

[Chiggs]

Epic have come out and categorically stated that isn't the case.

Yes, but more importantly, has Digital Foundry? That's the only way we can be sure, since Rich, John and Alex are beyond Epic and Cerny when it comes to PS5 potential.

 

[geordiemp]

DDR5 is round the corner plus AMD and Intel will continue to work on their chipset architecture (and by extension their I/O).

Within a couple of years the new PC hardware will smoke the I/O on the PS5.

its hard for Linus to take as well..

 

[Exodia]

Epic showed off THEIR engine - it happens they chose PS5 to show it, presumably that's where they felt it looked best.

Epic has been showing off their new engine on new PS hardware since like UE 2 or something. Another false statement.

 

[geordiemp]

Epic has been showing off their new engine on new PS hardware since like UE 2 or something. Another false statement.

Needed even more salt. I am dying here. More more...

 

[RaySoft]

There's no proof that they have to downscale,they can use the extra power of the GPU and that Little extra of the CPU and will be the same

Yeah, MS should actually make their CU's fetch their own workload, that way they wouldnt sit idle & starving as much;-)

 

[GHG]

its hard for Linus to take as well..

If this is as much a game changer as sweeney is suggesting it is (I wouldn't 100% take his word on anything - the guy is a snake oil salesman) then it's a good thing for everyone because it represents a huge step forward in a way that we haven't seen in many years.

I understand those who want to verify what is factual and what is not, but I do not understand those who are upset and bitter about this. These people are quite simply not interested in tech outside of what their favourite companies are doing and that's sad.

 

[ToadMan]

Epic has been showing off their new engine on new PS hardware since like UE 2 or something. Another false statement.

False statement? In what way? Lol

 

[Bo_Hazem]

its hard for Linus to take as well..

I'm a simple man and understood it, probably he should give his clickbaity videos a rest and try reading more before embarrassing himself. You can always use eyes, ears, and a brain if you want to, but knowledge is an option, ignorance as well.