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[Killjoy-NL]

but she is a head engineer she wouldn't replace teraflops with performance if teraflops doesn't mean performance

Then the only conclusion that can be drawn is that she's incompetent.

 

[Gaiff]

so liz hamren started the whole variable clocks vs sustained clocks debacle

cant believe i fell for her..............................statement

She's a lot prettier than Cerny. Xbox wins.

 

[Heisenberg007]

It's funny how some of these statements are identical to how Internet warriors used them. I'm curious to know which of the two groups came with it first.

"Variable clocks vs. sustained rates."
"3D audio is similar"
"SSD expandable storage is similar"
"12 vs. 10 advantage"

 

[Mephisto40]

Now give me sony exec reaction to the series s.

It probably went something like this

 

[Horseganador]

If the MS engineers knew all this because they would make a much larger and more expensive SoC to end up performing the same as PS5, I suppose Xbox managers wanted to win the battle of numbers at any cost.

 

[AtomicStarving]

 

[DeepEnigma]

Just shows how out of touch these executives are.

Not out of touch, just trying to control the narrative. It's all marketing, you see.

 

[Hudo]

It probably went something like this

I pretty sure they were discussing the price point more than anything else.

 

[Bernoulli]

Now give me sony exec reaction to the series s.

Series S-style consoles ‘have not had great results’, says PlayStation boss | VGC

Jim Ryan claims Sony considered a lower spec PS5, but decided it would be too ‘problematic’…

www.videogameschronicle.com

 

[HeWhoWalks]

So, even MS themselves talked about Tflops not being a good metric (with DF as well), despite xbox fanboys using it as the end-all argument at the time.

Funny that.

Those of us in the know try to them, but you know, zealots are gonna zealot

 

[mansoor1980]

She's a lot prettier than Cerny. Xbox wins.

 

[Tripolygon]

Bernoulli 's point is that performance =/= TFLOPs and this MS staffer should be informed enough to know that.

Not the point. It was pointed out that even Microsoft knows TF is not the best argument for performance which Bernoulli incorrectly attributes only to Mark Cerny.

no that's Mark Cerny
MS say we have a clear performance advantage 12 vs 10

Microsoft themselves say they made that same argument to Digital Foundry. But they still emphasize that they have a clear performance advantage 12 v 10 in terms of teraflops against PS5. Which they do. 12 vs 10 is a clear advantage and they would be stupid not to advertise that.

Then why did DF still act like "dear in the headlights" for almost a year or more with the face-off's, and kept scratching their heads when the PS5 was coming out on top or inline? Did they forget this memo? Or was it all an act early on?

I think context is needed to understand this internal email.

If you rewind time back to 2014 during the launch of PS4 and Xbox One. PS4 had a clear performance advantage 1.8TF vs 1.3TF. Microsoft made the argument to Digital Foundry that CU and teraflops didn't matter, what matters is the performance in games.

Microsoft:

Spoiler: LOL

this reminds of the FULL RDNA 2

"Just like our friends we're based on the Sea Islands family. We've made quite a number of changes in different parts of the areas... The biggest thing in terms of the number of compute units, that's been something that's been very easy to focus on. It's like, hey, let's count up the number of CUs, count up the gigaflops and declare the winner based on that. My take on it is that when you buy a graphics card, do you go by the specs or do you actually run some benchmarks?" he says.

Microsoft

"Firstly though, we don't have any games out. You can't see the games. When you see the games you'll be saying, 'what is the performance difference between them'. The games are the benchmarks. We've had the opportunity with the Xbox One to go and check a lot of our balance. The balance is really key to making good performance on a games console. You don't want one of your bottlenecks being the main bottleneck that slows you down."

So now they are saying Sony is making the same argument that Microsoft made when they had the teraflops disadvantage to digital foundry. The entire CU and TF argument was actually started by Microsoft and not Sony.

Microsoft even noted that clocking higher gets you more performance and advantages than adding more CU which is something Sony did with PS5 instead of adding more CUs.

"Every one of the Xbox One dev kits actually has 14 CUs on the silicon. Two of those CUs are reserved for redundancy in manufacturing, but we could go and do the experiment - if we were actually at 14 CUs what kind of performance benefit would we get versus 12? And if we raised the GPU clock what sort of performance advantage would we get? And we actually saw on the launch titles - we looked at a lot of titles in a lot of depth - we found that going to 14 CUs wasn't as effective as the 6.6 per cent clock upgrade that we did."

"Everybody knows from the internet that going to 14 CUs should have given us almost 17 per cent more performance," he says, "but in terms of actual measured games - what actually, ultimately counts - is that it was a better engineering decision to raise the clock. There are various bottlenecks you have in the pipeline that can cause you not to get the performance you want if your design is out of balance."

"Increasing the frequency impacts the whole of the GPU whereas adding CUs beefs up shaders and ALU," interjects Nick Baker.

"Right. By fixing the clock, not only do we increase our ALU performance, we also increase our vertex rate, we increase our pixel rate and ironically increase our ESRAM bandwidth," continues Goossen.

"But we also increase the performance in areas surrounding bottlenecks like the drawcalls flowing through the pipeline, the performance of reading GPRs out of the GPR pool, etc. GPUs are giantly complex. There's gazillions of areas in the pipeline that can be your bottleneck in addition to just ALU and fetch performance."

Also, Microsoft started that insane conspiracy that PS4 wasn't balanced. Thats the context of the internal email.

 

[Heisenberg007]

Not out of touch, just trying to control the narrative. It's all marketing, you see.

That is an internal email. So either they were completely out of touch or just fooling themselves.

 

[RoboFu]

I didn't even have to look at who posted this . I instantly knew it was Bernoulli

 

[Bernoulli]

There's always gonna be a gap

 

[DeepEnigma]

That is an internal email. So either they were completely out of touch or just fooling themselves.

Sounds more like CYA and how to prepare your marketing. Hence the 12 > 10.

Not the point. It was pointed out that even Microsoft knows TF is not the best argument for performance which Bernoulli incorrectly attributes only to Mark Cerny.

Microsoft themselves say they made that same argument to Digital Foundry. But they still emphasize that they have a clear performance advantage 12 v 10 in terms of teraflops against PS5. Which they do. 12 vs 10 is a clear advantage and they would be stupid not to advertise that.




I think context is needed to understand this internal email.

If you rewind time back to 2014 during the launch of PS4 and Xbox One. PS4 had a clear performance advantage 1.8TF vs 1.3TF. Microsoft made the argument to Digital Foundry that CU and teraflops didn't matter, what matters is the performance in games.

Microsoft:

Spoiler: LOL

this reminds of the FULL RDNA 2

Microsoft


So now they are saying Sony is making the same argument to digital foundry that they made way back when they had the teraflops disadvantage. The entire CU and TF argument was actually started by Microsoft and not Sony.

Microsoft even noted that clocking higher gets you more performance and advantages than adding more CU which is something Sony did with PS5 instead of adding more CUs.










Also, Microsoft started that insane conspiracy that PS4 wasn't balanced. Thats the context of the internal email.

That's a lot of flip flopping and mental gymnastics by them.

 

[SlimySnake]

I bet those redacted sentences show how they knew the specs all along from the github leaks. Panello said he knew about the PS5 tflops count all along and they desigend the series s and series x strategy around those specs.

 

[DeepEnigma]

I bet those redacted sentences show how they knew the specs all along from the github leaks. Panello said he knew about the PS5 tflops count all along and they desigend the series s and series x strategy around those specs.

And who owns Github...

 

[GymWolf]

I love that "boost mode" and sustained written that way, we all thought it wass silly at best and dumb at worse when cerny was doing his pr talk

 

[cireza]

So basically a MS guy saying the obvious. He acknowledges the strengths of both the PS5 and Xbox. Wow.

 

[King Dazzar]

Looking back on this, the best bit for me was when XSX wasn't showing the marketed 20% leap sold to everyone. Instead the PS5 was frequently trading blows with 3rd party releases. Everyone started asking why. And then the narrative shifted to "the tools, the tools, the tools" and how the devs weren't getting the best development kits. All peddled by Colt and co.

Still you have to give Xbox its due for the exceptional smoke and mirrors marketing - even I believed the hype pre launch!

 

[Hudo]

Still you have to give Xbox its due for the exceptional smoke and mirrors marketing - even I believed the hype pre launch!

Let's be real here. Both Microsoft and Sony utilized "smoke and mirrors" marketing to the fullest for this gen. Both consoles aren't technical marvels. They're solid, conservative evolutions of their predecessors (and deliberately so). Sony overhyped their SSD and Microsoft tried to overhype their "raw" Tflops power.

 

[DeepEnigma]

And then the narrative shifted to "the tools, the tools, the tools" and how the devs weren't getting the best development kits. All peddled by Colt and co.

They're tools, alright.

 

[Tiago Rodrigues]

This was a stupid thing to say on 2020....now it's just hilarious.

 

[Freelance Yakuza]

She's a lot prettier than Cerny. Xbox wins.

is she?

 

[Crispy Gamer]

i would have fired this person by now.

Liz Hamren "former" head of platform engineering I guess Microsoft agrees with you

 

[Thirty7ven]

Slightly better decompression but they have a clear advantage in TFlops similar expandable SSD solutions

Even inside the damn company they have to run damage control and deceive reality.

 

[Horseganador]

The truth is that they were a few fun months with the FUD against PS5 at full capacity by all means and then the first multis arrived and we started with damage control and the green tools xDD.

 

[King Dazzar]

Let's be real here. Both Microsoft and Sony utilized "smoke and mirrors" marketing to the fullest for this gen. Both consoles aren't technical marvels. They're solid, conservative evolutions of their predecessors (and deliberately so). Sony overhyped their SSD and Microsoft tried to overhype their "raw" Tflops power.

Sure, marketing is marketing. But MS's 20% overall performance thing was far more impactful to me at least. And then like I say, the whole defence narrative bit was interesting looking back on it too.

 

[HeWhoWalks]

Sony overhyped their SSD

How so?

 

[saintjules]

So, even MS themselves talked about Tflops not being a good metric (with DF as well), despite xbox fanboys using it as the end-all argument at the time.

Funny that.

Indeed that's quite hilarious. That topic was a prime conversation in the early days of the Console prediction/spec thread.

 

[solidus12]

But man oh man, the marketing on forums were off the chain prior to launch. First it was the "tools." Then it shifted to "cross-gen games, you wait until next gen games" which was always a head scratcher to me, then it shifted to "VRS2.0 and other buzzword AMD features..."

This train never stops! Choo choo!

Just wait for the full RDNA 2 feature set and the Series S will outperform the PS5.

 

[PropellerEar]

She's a lot prettier than Cerny. Xbox wins.

 

[saintjules]

How so?

They kind of keep pushing their SSD in a way to imply that certain games can only perform under the PS5, but then we will see those same games either on PC or appear on PS4 at a later date. Some of them, not all of course.

They did the SSD talk with Spider-Man 2 (timestamp).

 

[Cyberpunkd]

They kind of keep pushing their SSD in a way to imply that certain games can only perform under the PS5, but then we will see those same games either on PC or appear on PS4 at a later date. Some of them, not all of course.

"SSD magic" was the equivalent of Xbox's "cloud magic".

 

[DeepEnigma]

They kind of keep pushing their SSD in a way to imply that certain games can only perform under the PS5, but then we will see those same games either on PC or appear on PS4 at a later date. Some of them, not all of course.

They did the SSD talk with Spider-Man 2 (timestamp).

This is a nothing burger and not a lie to the game's performance pertaining on that platform.

 

[mckmas8808]

"We made this same point with Digital Foundry"

What I don't get, is why they then proceeded to imply a clear advantage anyway.

It also shows that MS didn't view the Xbox Series S being their "MAIN" Xbox console this gen either. It sort of ended up that way due to silicon yields.

 

[Thirty7ven]

They kind of keep pushing their SSD in a way to imply that certain games can only perform under the PS5, but then we will see those same games either on PC or appear on PS4 at a later date. Some of them, not all of course.

They did the SSD talk with Spider-Man 2 (timestamp).

Considering speed of web slinging, wind tunnels, and fast travel, I bet there’s other shit in there they won’t be able to port to PS4. It would be like making a different game.

 

[TheRedRiders]

I think DF for all their faults made an excellent point about the PS5's SSD. Mark Cerny is not a hype or marketing man, he's an engineer, his job is to design a system based on developer needs and feedback. The biggest request from most developers was an SSD, so that's what he went for.

Now Sony chose to market it in their own way, but it's important to make it clear that the SSD and it's performance was a clear design and engineering choice, not a marketing one.

 

[skyfinch]

Ps5 is a beast! Makes the series s look like dogshit.

 

[A.Romero]

Quite interesting that they appear to have found out what the specs were at the same time as everyone else. I assumed that Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo would have all been whispered the info by shared partners.

I was thinking the same thing. Even if they use the same vendor (AMD) it seems they really have good info compartmentalization.

I mean, they probably have an idea of what's possible within budget but don't know for sure until they publish that information for everyone to see.

 

[Hudo]

How so?

By essentially treating it like it's the invention of the century and gaming will never be the same. Reality is that except for some deliberately engineered titles like Ratchet & Clank (even that is arguable if you look at the PC version), it didn't make that much difference because game devs utilized and utilize RAM much more than offloading stuff onto an SSD. And w.r.t to loading times, it also didn't spark an evolution. In fact, old-ass cartridge-based console have significantly less or even no loading time.

It's fine if you put an SSD in you console, it's about time, too (should've been in PS4 already, imho). But don't go around in your marketing claiming like it's some miracle game changer. It isn't.

 

[bender]

They did the SSD talk with Spider-Man 2 (timestamp).

Very little downtime. Yes, that's completely overselling the SSD.

The reality is that Insomniac's statements about quick loading in their games that weren't possible on previous consoles with slower HDDs were twisted by forum warriors to "impossible without the PS5 SSD" which was clearly not Insomniac's intent.

 

[mckmas8808]

I think DF for all their faults made an excellent point about the PS5's SSD. Mark Cerny is not a hype or marketing man, he's an engineer, his job is to design a system based on developer needs and feedback. The biggest request from most developers was an SSD, so that's what he went for.

Now Sony chose to market it in their own way, but it's important to make it clear that the SSD and it's performance was a clear design and engineering choice, not a marketing one.

Plus we all know most next-gen games are starting to come out in this Fall. R&C was one of the few games using the SSD early on.

 

[shamoomoo]

How so?

He/she can't back that up. First part games loads hella fast and Spiderman 2 has used the SSD for gameplay purposes. Also, some third party games did make great use like Resident Evil Village.

 

[mckmas8808]

By essentially treating it like it's the invention of the century and gaming will never be the same. Reality is that except for some deliberately engineered titles like Ratchet & Clank (even that is arguable if you look at the PC version), it didn't make that much difference because game devs utilized and utilize RAM much more than offloading stuff onto an SSD. And w.r.t to loading times, it also didn't spark an evolution. In fact, old-ass cartridge-based console have significantly less or even no loading time.

It's fine if you put an SSD in you console, it's about time, too (should've been in PS4 already, imho). But don't go around in your marketing claiming like it's some miracle game changer. It isn't.

Aren't most great games "deliberately engineered" to take advantage of hardware? Plus is this generation over yet? You realize that this gen will go until 2028 right?

I don't know what you game on but you better believe Sony's 1st party will utilize the SSD and the custom I/O alot more going forward. In ways that will change game design.

 

[StealthGoblin]

"We made this same point with Digital Foundry"

What I don't get, is why they then proceeded to imply a clear advantage anyway.

Because outside of that, the hardware wasn't that remarkable to a layman. It was marketing guff.

It

 

[RaySoft]

"We made this same point with Digital Foundry"

What I don't get, is why they then proceeded to imply a clear advantage anyway.

There's a reason why execs only likes to be presented with charts and numbers... They don't understand the underlying data.

 

[Solidus_T]

"SSD magic" was the equivalent of Xbox's "cloud magic".

This is a poor comparison. The SSD does offer an improvement in performance, especially compared to last gen consoles, whereas the cloud computing offered little to no improvement. PC games had access to fast storage a decade before, but most games were not optimized for them until consoles, which are still more mainstream, started implementing features requiring faster storage.

 

[Jinzo Prime]

so liz hamren started the whole variable clocks vs sustained clocks debacle

cant believe i fell for her..............................statement

Xbox marketing is all about telling lies. They lie until they're green in the face. It's really getting old.