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Epic Games Store contacts Twitterer's bank to get updated payment information without consent
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Swift_Star
Banned
Why read when you can OUTRAGE and CONCERN?
Yea, when I get the chance I'm quiting them asap, they've really got me stuck with a yearly credit card that the bank account waives the fee of.
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Some banks don’t change card numbers after expiration.
This all only works when you dont report a card lost or stolen which is why it’s safe and super convenient.
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
But the bank contacted Epic. Epic sent an email to the user telling them the bank did that. Isn’t their bank at fault for doing that? Epic thinks your card is on there for a reason. Why add a card if you can’t take on the responsibility of having your card stored in their servers? Unless I read this entire thread in a backwards manner.
What about the other online outlets that don’t send you an email about your bank doing this?
What about the other online outlets that don’t send you an email about your bank doing this?
Ron Mexico
Member
Been in banking since 2002.
The bank didn't contact Epic. Epic didn't contact the bank. This is an API that will automatically update card information and you can opt out (altogether, not merchant by merchant) but this is an automated process and not anything that was done manually. The number of privacy rules that would be broken if that were the case would make for a FAR bigger news story.
It's been a minute since I've been in direct involvement with payments, but here's a link from June 2020 of all the merchants that could do what Epic did here so long as the cardholder was opted in. There's also a Mastercard list that I imagine would be 99.9999% similar if not identical. There's a world of shit wrong in the banking industry. This one isn't it.
https://www.oceanfinancial.org/wp-c...isa-Account-Updater-Merchant-Participants.pdf
The bank didn't contact Epic. Epic didn't contact the bank. This is an API that will automatically update card information and you can opt out (altogether, not merchant by merchant) but this is an automated process and not anything that was done manually. The number of privacy rules that would be broken if that were the case would make for a FAR bigger news story.
It's been a minute since I've been in direct involvement with payments, but here's a link from June 2020 of all the merchants that could do what Epic did here so long as the cardholder was opted in. There's also a Mastercard list that I imagine would be 99.9999% similar if not identical. There's a world of shit wrong in the banking industry. This one isn't it.
https://www.oceanfinancial.org/wp-c...isa-Account-Updater-Merchant-Participants.pdf
Ron Mexico
Member
Also, while I speak from a US-based perspective, the answer to this is quite sadly "way more common than it has any right to be". I could tell stories for days about the amount of dumb shit I've seen banks do.
There are consumer protections available with anything done via ACH (as you described) but shitty managers are going to be shitty managers. I've had limited professional contact with BMO but it doesn't surprise me that a big bank would hire someone of that ilk.
What those banks count on is when (not if) they piss you off, you'll likely stay because changing your primary bank is a pain in the ass. In the same way that your cell phone provider/internet provider/insert subscription service here knows exactly how to model for retention, the banks have ALL kinds of data knowing how likely you are to remain an account holder, the amount of income they'll make off you, etc etc.
The industry blows. Ironically, I only started in banking because I was making my deposits for the Electronics Boutique I worked at and they talked me into applying and fuck Game Doctors.
Mithos
Member
Oh, I think I'd not like if my bank didn't change card number on every new card no matter the reason for a new card.
But then again I trust NOONE so... there are not many places where I keep my cardnumber stored for easy repeat payments, I actually think 2 places in total, all other places I retype on each purchase if needed, but 99% of the places I can direct pay from my bank or through the klarna app.
ZehDon
Gold Member
As I said, Epic can call whoever they want. They could call the financial institution behind every payment in their database for all I care. The financial institution shouldn't be handing shit out. If someone calls up my credit card company because I made a payment and it fails, I would expect my credit card company to tell them to fuck off - it failed, that's all they need to know.
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reinking
Gold Member
This happened to me years ago with Xbox Gold. I left an expired card on the account on purpose. They even sent me the confirmation email that my Xbox Live Gold had expired. About a month later I found out I had an active Gold account again. When I called support they told me that they updated my CC info. I was pissed. Mostly because they did this after sending me a confirmation email that the account was disabled.
ManaByte
Gold Member
EXCEPT THAT'S NOT WHAT HAPPENED.
This is an automated email that gets sent when the person gets a new card, they have it stored on the site, and the bank updates the card's expiration date. No one called anyone.
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Well then why trust any site w/ your card number? Just because you didn't check the "store my info" box doesn't mean they couldn't store it.
Also now you are transmitting your card number every time you make a payment, which has other potential security issues.
Not trying to be a dick; but you really should just go w/ what's convenient and then if something happens, well that's what purchase protection is for.
This, this is probably an automated process that you agree to in the TOS it probably already exists in financial institutions to squash deadbeats that are trying to skirt companies. We‘re only hearing about Epic doing this because we’re gamers.
Torrent of Pork
Banned
Cringe aside this isn't right. I use a credit union, and if my card changes shit doesn't work until I update my payment information.
If my CU pull d this shit I would immediately switch to another financial institution, because I wouldn't trust their fraud protection.
If my CU pull d this shit I would immediately switch to another financial institution, because I wouldn't trust their fraud protection.
DaGwaphics
Member
In the US most banks have been doing that for years. No losing your card to get rid of that subscription from hell that you can never get cancelled. LOL
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Yeah if you've got potentially recurring charges on a card that expires, and it gets dinged, the bank automatically sends the retailer the updated expiration date. And probably references the customer name in the email.
They're acting like they got an entirely new credit card / account number and epic personally phoned the bank asking for it. There's no way that happened though.
Its totally normal, I've been buying shit on PSN with card details that say it expired 4 years ago. I cba changing it and it still works, so I left it.
They're acting like they got an entirely new credit card / account number and epic personally phoned the bank asking for it. There's no way that happened though.
Its totally normal, I've been buying shit on PSN with card details that say it expired 4 years ago. I cba changing it and it still works, so I left it.
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Barakov
Member
Just a side note, but what happened to the "cringe" tag? Anyways, as much as I loathe making threads out of tweets, I thought this was something worth discussing.
The follow up Tweets:
So what say you GAF? Is Sweeney and the gang saving us valuable time by contacting our banks to get updated payment info, or does this cross the line a little? Is the bank mostly at fault for giving out the info?
My EGS hatred is vindicated once again.
Tams
Member
You can easily get the ToS and the language isn't that obtuse, just long.
They can't make you sell yourself into slavery or the like, but that's about it. If you don't bother reading them yet still agree, well that's on you.
Chukhopops
Member
It’s already been mentioned a few times but this is actually a service provided by Visa/Mastercard called ABU:
https://developer.mastercard.com/product/automatic-billing-updater-abu/
Epic simply paid to use the service, and afaiu the bank also needs to have opted into the program (I could be wrong, not a banking API specialist).
It’s a bit shitty (although I could see it being useful if users were allowed to opt in) but that’s how it is.
https://developer.mastercard.com/product/automatic-billing-updater-abu/
Epic simply paid to use the service, and afaiu the bank also needs to have opted into the program (I could be wrong, not a banking API specialist).
It’s a bit shitty (although I could see it being useful if users were allowed to opt in) but that’s how it is.
Kataploom
Gold Member
I half agree, but before I could have totally agreed, I just started understanding some shit regarding, the problem is that most of the times these TOS are only available to accept or reject after a purchase, installation or any step that could have any kind of cost to the person had already be done, which puts a pressure into accepting since some price (time, money, etc) was already paid. That's one thing I'd definitely ask for regulation (and I'm very against many types of government regulations).
yet_another_alt
Member
Yeah, TOS should be something that's given to you before purchase. It should also be illegal to change the TOS after purchase, at the very least they should refund you if they decide to update the TOS and you don't agree with it.
Kataploom
Gold Member
Well, the problem is when they are not obligated to notify of changes, iirc EGS did something shady changing their TOS for users little after they open three store, but can't remember what it was, which actually brought complaints and so on..
10101
Gold Member
Seriously what the fuck is it with people on Twitter? It’s like they are incapable of rational thought and just need to rant about everything.
How about, contact your bank and ask them? They will tell you it’s a standard practice and if you don’t want your details to be updated - delete them ffs, no drama, use PayPal, carry on with your life.
But no, let’s head to Twitter and try and create some faux outrage against a company you don’t like! Also, throw in a bit of transphobia for added shits and giggles to let everyone know how marginalised and special you are.
A world full of snowflakes, all living on Twitter, place needs thawing out!
How about, contact your bank and ask them? They will tell you it’s a standard practice and if you don’t want your details to be updated - delete them ffs, no drama, use PayPal, carry on with your life.
But no, let’s head to Twitter and try and create some faux outrage against a company you don’t like! Also, throw in a bit of transphobia for added shits and giggles to let everyone know how marginalised and special you are.
A world full of snowflakes, all living on Twitter, place needs thawing out!
Fredrik
Member
I’ve never had that happen. I just get an email that the payment didn’t go through and a request that I update the billing info.
If this is done automatically, how would they know what card I want to use if I have multiple cards?
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Superkewl
Member
I work in the fraud department for a bank and see this all the time. Visa has an automated forwarding system available to large clients such as Apple, amazon, etc... where if an outdated card is charged, Visa will forward the charges to the new card. It was intended to prevent the clients services from being cut off because they forgot to update their card number with the vendor.
Not sure about other banks, but my bank can turn the feature off if requested. Also, features like this and tap are usually required to be turned on by Visa, not the bank.
Not sure about other banks, but my bank can turn the feature off if requested. Also, features like this and tap are usually required to be turned on by Visa, not the bank.
Tams
Member
Black_Stride
do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
I take it you havent read the thread?
This has nothing to do with EGS, no one from Epic is going to call your bank, and no your bank isnt going to call Epic either, its an automatic service provided by the card issuer.
Dumb people are just dumb.
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Black_Stride
do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
I think we can close this thread.
Its a nonestarter that has nothing to do with Epic, your Hideo Kojima Hentai subscription probably also auto updates if you havent opted out.
This weirdo didnt opt out and is making a big deal out of nothing, hell we should be praising Epic cuz atleast they notified her the service she is with updated Epic, so now they know this is a thing.
Fredrik
Member
Whoever is doing it I’d still say it’s pushing it to auto update the billing info with new card numbers if you deliberately choose to not add a new card for whatever reason. Feels weird to hear it’s standard practise. Never seen it happen myself though.
Black_Stride
do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
You need to opt out....with your card issuer.
Epic simply lists that they are a subscription/service that could have recurring payments.
The VISA/Mastercard service was introduced because you are subscribed and have your details on so so many things you cant keep track and one day your service will just cut out or youll need to buy something and then need to add a new card.
Emails asking you to update billing information or even telling you your credit card is about to expire will be marked as SPAM so hard youll be able to smell it....so companies generally dont bother email you that your card is about to expire.
You have to log in to the service for it to actually tell you, the details are about to expire....which you will just ignore because any msgs from "service" are obviously spam.
supernova8
Banned
I'm in Japan and my credit card provider has never provided any retailers (online or offline or backend) with "updated information". If my credit card is invalid then should be up to me (ie my responsibility but also my choice) to update my credit card information for any particular goods/service provider (obviously doesn't mean you should receive a good/service and then intentionally not update your details in an attempt to get said good/service for free).
I'd say that is a breach of privacy even if it is in the bank's terms and conditions (which, let's face it, nobody reads because they make it so that you would never get to the end of it). At the very least it should be opt-in and not opt-out.
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supernova8
Banned
Maybe it's just me but I think this is sort of thing that should be opt-in rather than opt-out.
Fredrik
Member
Is it country specific? I still get emails telling me I need to update my billing info because they haven’t received the payment. I should try experiment a bit. To my knowledge I have not once had a new card magically appear on an account without me adding it.
Black_Stride
do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
I imagine it depends on your provider.
Black_Stride
do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
While I agree.
Its a frikken credit card, you should probably read the agreement and know what you are getting into.
Companies are taking advantage of how slow people are.
supernova8
Banned
I think the "you should have read the ToC" thing stopped being 100% fair once they started hitting us with dozens of pages of terms. Plus, even if you avoid it the first time around, they inevitably update that 100 page set of terms and conditions and essentially leave it up to you to find the tiny (but probably important or they wouldn't put them in) changes like a needle in a haystack. Also once they're all doing it you de-facto cannot avoid it unless you don't get a credit card at all, and if the service you want to use only accepts credit cards then ...
Goalus
Member
Yaaaaas, slay queen!
"Pay your Queen" ?
SCB3
Member
Bingo
Thaedolus
Gold Member
Guys we’ve already had someone from the banking industry confirm there are APIs that which update this stuff automatically. I’ve had mine get updated automatically in the past as well (which I was fine with because I had recurring payments going through it). Sweeney says that’s what happened here as well.
If you’re unaware of this process, or if you’re opted out, that doesn’t mean it’s not what happened or that Epic contacted the bank or that the bank improperly gave out information.
“Your Queen” probably fucked up at two points: not understanding that she was opted into this auto update process and not actually removing her credit card from EGS.
The outrage mob can disperse now.
If you’re unaware of this process, or if you’re opted out, that doesn’t mean it’s not what happened or that Epic contacted the bank or that the bank improperly gave out information.
“Your Queen” probably fucked up at two points: not understanding that she was opted into this auto update process and not actually removing her credit card from EGS.
The outrage mob can disperse now.
Ron Mexico
Member
This I totally agree with. There is a balance to strike and personally, I'd lean heavily into opting-in as a matter of convenience but I'm completely in favor of it being a cognizant choice.
For anyone looking to opt-out, i would just remind you that you're opting in/out in full as you dont get to cherry pick which merchants one by one.
Multiple facets to this. It's card-issuer specific AND it requires the specific merchant to use the API available to do the particular update. Would also explain a scenario where only some merchants automatically update while others don't. Incorporating these APIs aren't cheap from what I'm aware so I wouldn't expect 100% usage on either the issuer nor the merchant.
The industry as a whole does a shit job of informing their customers of how things work. But this was one that could have been solved in less time than it takes for a Twitter post.
Epic could have phrased that auto email far better. The customer could have called the FI. Both would have helped this case.
Edit: went back to read a little of that mess on Twitter. Either the "rep" she "called" was clueless or we can't let the truth get in the way of a good outrage campaign. And the free followers! Christ.
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Ron Mexico
Member
Missed this earlier. Just to shed some light on this, I too work (and bank) at a smaller CU these days and we don't offer the automatic updates. It's actually a pain point for our call center because on the whole, it's popular.
Goes back to the API cost. In this case, your CU is essentially opting-out for you as that implementation isn't cheap.
If there's good to come out of a shitty Twitter thread, it's for anyone who reads this to just check with their financial institution to see if a) they participate in the service and b) if that's what you want as a client.
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