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[Forsaken82]

To me it feels that some expect far too little. It's troublesome that some expect to pay the same price for less next gen, and don't even seem the slightest bit bothered.

Either that or most of the people talking down the next gen consoles as if they will be no more than mid-range PCs are just members of the "master race" further asserting their dominance over the console plebs by talking as if anyone sticking to consoles next gen had better get accustomed to mediocrity.

You are right I am not the slightest bit bothered at the prospect of playing a system that may merely be 5x more powerful than current gen if that means i get a system for 399.99. I don't want a system that is 10x more power if it means i have to pay 599.99 or more to enjoy it which seems to be what you are getting at. I also don't see how 399.99 represents the same price as current gen... If anything, a new system that is around 5x more powerful for the price point of CURRENT systems, is more appealing than buying lesser tech at the same price is it not?

 

[pottuvoi]

PSGL.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSGL

Except no one uses PSGL, it simply isn't feasible for proper game developement.

Libgcm is the API to choose on Ps3, nice and close to metal.

 

[mrklaw]

You are right I am not the slightest bit bothered at the prospect of playing a system that may merely be 5x more powerful than current gen if that means i get a system for 399.99. I don't want a system that is 10x more power if it means i have to pay 599.99 or more to enjoy it which seems to be what you are getting at. I also don't see how 399.99 represents the same price as current gen... If anything, a new system that is around 5x more powerful for the price point of CURRENT systems, is more appealing than buying lesser tech at the same price is it not?

if it was only 5x more powerful I just wouldn't buy one and save myself $400. A lot of people would be the same I think. You have to demonstrate enough of an improvement over the previous generation to persuade people to spend $4-500.

 

[mrklaw]

art wont flurish if developers are constantly being forced to spend larger budgets on developing high end graphics piplines, higher polygon assets, and trying to keep up with the crysis, uncharteds, and gears'. Especially when we as gamers keep demanding it from them.

Limitation allow for creativity to flourish, people are forced to come up with creative solutions to hardware limitations. Many art students will tell you that open projects are both the most difficult ones to do, and the ones that provide the weakest end work precicely because in the end they trend towards their saftey net, their style, or something nice(ie copy) as opposed to being challenged and attempting to overcome limitation.

and while i understand it's not mutually exclusive, it's very much an issue in my opinion. Look at gears, and how many games look similar to it because when it released it was seen as the "graphics standard" for consoles. I can only name a handful of games that use the unreal engine that aren't specifically attempting "realism" with their artstyle, and only a few more that attempt realism with truly unique look and feel.

this generation has seen much more active 'indie' games on home consoles, and tools are a lot better than they used to be. More power next gen with similar tools means development costs don't have to increase dramatically, and can offer more flexibility for smaller developers and more 'individual' art styles etc.

Wouldn't you rather have art/design work on art/design, rather than how to get their designs represented in 100 polygons and a 16x16 texture?

 

[guek]

if it was only 5x more powerful I just wouldn't buy one and save myself $400. A lot of people would be the same I think. You have to demonstrate enough of an improvement over the previous generation to persuade people to spend $4-500.

1. 5x more powerful does not necessarily have the same impact on everyone as it does on you. A PC game running on a mid-tier PC is enough to wow a lot of the more casual console gamers out there. I think 5x would impress many.

2. There's more to new consoles than simply better looking games

 

[Jinko]

if it was only 5x more powerful I just wouldn't buy one and save myself $400. A lot of people would be the same I think. You have to demonstrate enough of an improvement over the previous generation to persuade people to spend $4-500.

So you are saying Samaritan @ 720p isn't enough ... good luck expecting more.

 

[Plinko]

if it was only 5x more powerful I just wouldn't buy one and save myself $400. A lot of people would be the same I think. You have to demonstrate enough of an improvement over the previous generation to persuade people to spend $4-500.

It is comments like this that drive me crazy. How in the world do you even know what "5x power" looks like?

I said it earlier in this thread and I'll say it again--I have a feeling we're going to finally get the real next Xbox specs and GAF will outrage because they focused more on Kinect/other ways to play instead of the power GAF wanted. Then, once next E3 rolls around or we get a good feeling of the graphics on the system, most of GAF will say, "Oh, that's not as bad as I thought" and buy the thing anyway.

 

[gatti-man]

It is comments like this that drive me crazy. How in the world do you even know what "5x power" looks like?

Wouldnt 5x be samaritan at 720p? Pretty sure we will get better than that after launch titles pass through.

 

[blu]

Except no one uses PSGL, it simply isn't feasible for proper game developement.

Libgcm is the API to choose on Ps3, nice and close to metal.

Didn't Sony's own PhyreEngine start life as PSGL-based? I might be misremembering, though.

 

[Zaptruder]

I don't think I've ever seen Dan Yo hold a position that could be construed as reasonably intelligent.

 

[iamshadowlark]

Except no one uses PSGL, it simply isn't feasible for proper game developement.

Libgcm is the API to choose on Ps3, nice and close to metal.

I have no idea if they do or not. A question was asked and the answer was given.

 

[Oppo]

I said it earlier in this thread and I'll say it again--I have a feeling we're going to finally get the real next Xbox specs and GAF will outrage because they focused more on Kinect/other ways to play instead of the power GAF wanted. Then, once next E3 rolls around or we get a good feeling of the graphics on the system, most of GAF will say, "Oh, that's not as bad as I thought" and buy the thing anyway.

Pretty good guess.

 

[Mastperf]

The 360 was a huge leap over the Xbox and MS delivered that in only 4 years at $400. There's no good reason why they can't manage a generational leap at $400 with twice as many years to work with.

 

[themadcowtipper]

The 360 was a huge leap over the Xbox and MS delivered that in only 4 years at $400. There's no good reason why they can't manage a generational leap at $400 with twice as many years to work with.

Laws of physics say other wise, unless they are realeasing a machine the size of the titanic. I'm not sure MS wants to go bleeding edge anyway.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

Which laws of physics exactly? When looking at the hardware, Moore's law, while not being a law of physic, is still valid. Today's hardware is a lot more powerful and more efficient. That's a point which a lot of people tend to forget. The Xbox 360 had a 90nm gpu when released, today we can build 28nm gpus. So your "size of titanic" argument is kind of weak.

 

[Karak]

Which laws of physics exactly? When looking at the hardware, Moore's law, while not being a law of physic, is still valid. Today's hardware is a lot more powerful and more efficient. That's a point which a lot of people tend to forget. The Xbox 360 had a 90nm gpu when released, today we can build 28nm gpus. So your "size of titanic" argument is kind of weak.

For the last 9 pages this has been explained time and again. Just look back at the posts. Moore's law has nothing to do with the problems that are now occurring and how they unfortunately can't be handled in normal ways. He is right on with his Titanic statement and what is occurring. Taking into account that everyone can understand that 'titanic' was meant to be humorous to point out the issues at hand.

 

[iamshadowlark]

Laws of physics say other wise, unless they are realeasing a machine the size of the titanic. I'm not sure MS wants to go bleeding edge anyway.

No they don't, quit repeating the same babble that gets thrown around so much. Anybody who thinks we won't get a generational leap is insane. We may not get as much of a leap as we saw this gen but still it'll be 2013 before these new consoles launch.

 

[Mastperf]

Laws of physics say other wise, unless they are realeasing a machine the size of the titanic. I'm not sure MS wants to go bleeding edge anyway.

We aren't talking top of the line gpu's here. It's not going to take a high-end 2012 gpu to get a generational leap. The extra 4 years is exactly why MS can get that leap without breaking the bank.
The fact that MS went high-end with the 360 is what allowed them to stretch this generation out. If they would have cut corners, they'd have had serious pressure from devs to release new hardware.

 

[Shtof]

Unless they can run Samaritan at 1080p they shouldn't bother with a new generation.

 

[twobear]

It is comments like this that drive me crazy. How in the world do you even know what "5x power" looks like?

5x power = 5x the size

people want 20x the power because they will be able to live inside their xbox

 

[themadcowtipper]

We aren't talking top of the line gpu's here. It's not going to take a high-end 2012 gpu to get a generational leap. The extra 4 years is exactly why MS can get that leap without breaking the bank.
The fact that MS went high-end with the 360 is what allowed them to stretch this generation out. If they would have cut corners, they'd have had serious pressure from devs to release new hardware.

You are not seeing a 10x leap in 2012 or 2013. You can't compare it with the launch of the 360. Cards have advanced greatly requiring more and more power. Also you are assuming MS will go high spec, all reports appear to be kinect focused.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

But at the same time their size was shrinked and the architecture was improved, making them more efficient. How can you ignore this? Faster hardware does not necessarily need more power.

 

[Forsaken82]

Wouldnt 5x be samaritan at 720p? Pretty sure we will get better than that after launch titles pass through.

according to Epic, 5x IS better than Samaritan at 720p. And 5x is so arbitrary that no one can truly gauge what to expect from it, especially when by the end of a console generation it usually feels like the tech has well surpassed expectations.

1. 5x more powerful does not necessarily have the same impact on everyone as it does on you. A PC game running on a mid-tier PC is enough to wow a lot of the more casual console gamers out there. I think 5x would impress many.

2. There's more to new consoles than simply better looking games

This is really what I was getting at too.

 

[guek]

Which laws of physics exactly? When looking at the hardware, Moore's law, while not being a law of physic, is still valid. Today's hardware is a lot more powerful and more efficient. That's a point which a lot of people tend to forget. The Xbox 360 had a 90nm gpu when released, today we can build 28nm gpus. So your "size of titanic" argument is kind of weak.

The line of thought is not all that logical. It follows a singular train of thought without taking into account all the relevant factors. It's not 2005, it's 2012 and a considerable amount has changed. Console hardware is only tangentially effected by Moore's law because consoles are built within a smaller enclosure with limitations on heat dissipation that does not change exponentially from generation to generation. If I'm understanding things correctly (and I fully admit with my limited knowledge, I may not be), a 2.5TFLOP GPU - a "generational" 10x increase- will consume close to 200w, the same power draw as the entire OG 360. There's also the matter of chip densities limiting the amount of ram we can expect within the near future. These are factors that simply cannot be ignored.

 

[tkscz]

The 360 was a huge leap over the Xbox and MS delivered that in only 4 years at $400. There's no good reason why they can't manage a generational leap at $400 with twice as many years to work with.

CPU wise yes it was. GPU wise, it was only 6x the original Xbox. Hell, first 360 games didn't look that different from the last Xbox games graphically. People forget this so quickly.

Also, PROFIT, is a very good reason why they can't.

 

[Karak]

We aren't talking top of the line gpu's here. It's not going to take a high-end 2012 gpu to get a generational leap. The extra 4 years is exactly why MS can get that leap without breaking the bank.
The fact that MS went high-end with the 360 is what allowed them to stretch this generation out. If they would have cut corners, they'd have had serious pressure from devs to release new hardware.

Ya maybe generational needs a descriptor to be easier to define. Obviously its not physically possible right now to throw in parts that would offer a generational(technology) jump akin to the extended generations length. But as many have said a 4-5 jump will be possible. The thing is no matter what its going to look better than 360 games! But won't be even close to high end PC stuff unless they somehow magically do away with the technical issues that have cropped up in the last 4 years.

I am stoked no matter what. But keeping my estimations within factual reason for now.

 

[iamshadowlark]

The line of thought is not all that logical. It follows a singular train of thought without taking into account all the relevant factors. It's not 2005, it's 2012 and a considerable amount has changed. Console hardware is only tangentially effected by Moore's law because consoles are built within a smaller enclosure with limitations on heat dissipation that does not change exponentially from generation to generation. If I'm understanding things correctly (and I fully admit with my limited knowledge, I may not be), a 2.5TFLOP GPU - a "generational" 10x increase- will consume close to 200w, the same power draw as the entire OG 360. There's also the matter of chip densities limiting the amount of ram we can expect within the near future. These are factors that simply cannot be ignored.

You won't get nor need ten times the GPU power in a console and I doubt that Epic is basing that number simply on the Gpu.

 

[LittleJohnny]

The Samaritan demo uses 40,000 operations per pixel, right? What if a refined or closer to final version uses 35,000/30,000 while maintaining the same visual fidelity, or better yet, what if UE4 is even more refined, looks better and requires less than 40k operations per pixel?

Imo FLOPS performance is not necessarily the best measurement.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

These are factors that simply cannot be ignored.

Unless you're on NeoGAF. Lots of people around those parts like to ignore reality. Or don't understand enough of this reality to form a cogent baseline for their expectations.

Seriously guys.This has been covered a good million times before. Damper your expectations because the tech just isn't there to give you the leap you expect. I mean if we were talking cases the size of a PC? Shoot for the moon.

We're talking about something less than 1/4th the size and under the power budget of a single high end PC part. With modern tech the best you're going to get is a moderately sized jump.

 

[guek]

You won't get nor need ten times the GPU power in a console and I doubt that Epic is basing that number simply on the Gpu.

I admit that I only have a cursory knowledge here, but I have a real hard time believing you have any idea what you're talking about.

The number Epic is citing refers to floating point calculations, which from my understanding is much more dependent on the GPU than the CPU.

As of 2010, the fastest six-core PC processor reaches 109 GFLOPS (Intel Core i7 980 XE)[14] in double precision calculations.

So please, enlighten the rest of us, what else is going to be used in coming up with the 2.5TFLOP figure?

 

[themadcowtipper]

Unless you're on NeoGAF. Lots of people around those parts like to ignore reality. Or don't understand enough of this reality to form a cogent baseline for their expectations.

Seriously guys.This has been covered a good million times before. Damper your expectations because the tech just isn't there to give you the leap you expect. I mean if we were talking cases the size of a PC? Shoot for the moon.

We're talking about something less than 1/4th the size and under the power budget of a single high end PC part. With modern tech the best you're going to get is a moderately sized jump.

If next gen systems are not powerful enough to give me radiation poisoning, whats the point???

 

[Gemüsepizza]

The line of thought is not all that logical. It follows a singular train of thought without taking into account all the relevant factors. It's not 2005, it's 2012 and a considerable amount has changed. Console hardware is only tangentially effected by Moore's law because consoles are built within a smaller enclosure with limitations on heat dissipation that does not change exponentially from generation to generation. If I'm understanding things correctly (and I fully admit with my limited knowledge, I may not be), a 2.5TFLOP GPU - a "generational" 10x increase- will consume close to 200w, the same power draw as the entire OG 360. There's also the matter of chip densities limiting the amount of ram we can expect within the near future. These are factors that simply cannot be ignored.

Who says you need a 10x increase? I was just pointing out, that hardware is advancing at a constant rate. Of course there are some limitations, but a console which would be released this year or the next, will blow away the old ones. And I am sure people will be impressed by next gen graphics.

 

[guek]

Who says you need a 10x increase?

For Samaritan at 1080p locked at 30fps (the bare minimum many people seem to be expecting for next gen)? Epic. Epic says you need a 10x increase.

That said, if rumors of a 1TFLOP Wii U turn out to be true, I think people are going to be much more happy with the weakest machine of next gen than they expect.

 

[specialguy]

Laws of physics say other wise, unless they are realeasing a machine the size of the titanic. I'm not sure MS wants to go bleeding edge anyway.

The discussion here always seems centered around the next Xbox (rather than the next playstation) and hopes that it will be weak, but until proven otherwise I maintain it will be fundamentally powerful and the most powerful of the 3 next gen contenders. I dont see any evidence otherwise, and no the countless two bit website rumors and hopings are not evidence. The fact is the next Xbox is in it's formative stages, isn't coming for a long time, will not be at E3, is a traditional, powerful console, and you'll just have to deal with it.

 

[guek]

you'll just have to deal with it.

Ah, taking your own subjective, unfounded, unsupported opinion and pawning it off as fact again I see.

 

[Karak]

The discussion here always seems centered around the next Xbox (rather than the next playstation) and hopes that it will be weak, but until proven otherwise I maintain it will be fundamentally powerful and the most powerful of the 3 next gen contenders. I dont see any evidence otherwise, and no the countless two bit website rumors and hopings are not evidence. The fact is the next Xbox is in it's formative stages, isn't coming for a long time, will not be at E3, is a traditional, powerful console, and you'll just have to deal with it.

And all our hopes have to be tempered by fact and science.
And your last sentence...is not facts. Just an FYI. I don't think the word means what you hope people will somehow magically think it means.

 

[specialguy]

CPU wise yes it was. GPU wise, it was only 6x the original Xbox. Hell, first 360 games didn't look that different from the last Xbox games graphically. People forget this so quickly.

Also, PROFIT, is a very good reason why they can't.

Umm, the 360 is the most currently profitable and immensely so, in addition MS can absorb far more losses than the other two companies in any case.

If anybody is in the best profit position to put out a powerful console BY FARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR it's Microsoft. These are some basic, undeniable facts. 360 will have built up a nice "profit cushion" by then as well. The 360 could easily be several billion in the black by then, essentially giving Ms a fat "Xbox bankroll" to play with without even needing any losses.

 

[LabouredSubterfuge]

The discussion here always seems centered around the next Xbox (rather than the next playstation) and hopes that it will be weak, but until proven otherwise I maintain it will be fundamentally powerful and the most powerful of the 3 next gen contenders. I dont see any evidence otherwise, and no the countless two bit website rumors and hopings are not evidence. The fact is the next Xbox is in it's formative stages, isn't coming for a long time, will not be at E3, is a traditional, powerful console, and you'll just have to deal with it.

This is a special, special post. Troll or not, it deserves a read if you value your funny bone.

Umm, the 360 is the most currently profitable and immensely so, in addition MS can absorb far more losses than the other two companies in any case.

If anybody is in the best profit position to put out a powerful console BY FARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR it's Microsoft. These are some basic, undeniable facts. 360 will have built up a nice "profit cushion" by then as well. The 360 could easily be several billion in the black by then, essentially giving Ms a fat "Xbox bankroll" to play with without even needing any losses.

And another.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

For Samaritan at 1080p locked at 30fps (the bare minimum many people seem to be expecting for next gen)? Epic. Epic says you need a 10x increase.

That said, if rumors of a 1TFLOP Wii U turn out to be true, I think people are going to be much more happy with the weakest machine of next gen than they expect.

1080p is overrated and I don't think it is needed for a generational leap. Take a look at this picture and view it fullscreen:

http://www.abload.de/img/tom-cruise-mission-im28c66.jpg

Image quality is more than just the resolution. I doubt that developers will go for 1080p, when it needs twice the power 720p needs.

 

[themadcowtipper]

The discussion here always seems centered around the next Xbox (rather than the next playstation) and hopes that it will be weak, but until proven otherwise I maintain it will be fundamentally powerful and the most powerful of the 3 next gen contenders. I dont see any evidence otherwise, and no the countless two bit website rumors and hopings are not evidence. The fact is the next Xbox is in it's formative stages, isn't coming for a long time, will not be at E3, is a traditional, powerful console, and you'll just have to deal with it.

Or maybe it has to do with the person I was responding to was talking about the nexbox. Sure the nexbox can be the most powerful, but how noticeable will that be is the question.I will own all three next gen systems like always.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

The discussion here always seems centered around the next Xbox (rather than the next playstation) and hopes that it will be weak, but until proven otherwise I maintain it will be fundamentally powerful and the most powerful of the 3 next gen contenders. I dont see any evidence otherwise, and no the countless two bit website rumors and hopings are not evidence. The fact is the next Xbox is in it's formative stages, isn't coming for a long time, will not be at E3, is a traditional, powerful console, and you'll just have to deal with it.

It's based on the fact that we've received quite a few rumors about Fusion and very few about PS4. That makes us think Fusion is coming first. Anywhere from a year to two years before PS4. Every single credible Fusion rumor has it hovering around the lower end of next gen console power.

It doesn't take a very wild imagination to see why people are thinking what they are. Last to release always has marginal technical improvements over those that came before. Given the rumors are pointing to a Fusion with a GPU 20% faster than WiiU, and maybe 50% more RAM is it any wonder that people think a PS4 releasing later (maybe a lot later) is going to have more effective power than a console releasing earlier?

 

[guek]

1080p is overrated. Take a look at this picture and view it fullscreen:

http://www.abload.de/img/tom-cruise-mission-im28c66.jpg

Image quality is more than just the resolution. I doubt that developers will go for 1080p, when it needs twice the power 720p needs.

Aren't you just moving the goalpost now? I totally agree that 1.5 TFLOP gpu with most games at 720p will be juuuust fine, but in the context of this thread, people seem to be asking for Samaritan at 1080p.

 

[Forsaken82]

Aren't you just moving the goalpost now? I totally agree that 1.5 TFLOP gpu with most games at 720p will be juuuust fine, but in the context of this thread, people seem to be asking for Samaritan at 1080p.

That is what I have been seeing as well. Seems most people expect 1080p as a standard for next gen which is not going to happen.

 

[Foliorum Viridum]

1080p is overrated and I don't think it is needed for a generational leap. Take a look at this picture and view it fullscreen:

http://www.abload.de/img/tom-cruise-mission-im28c66.jpg

Image quality is more than just the resolution. I doubt that developers will go for 1080p, when it needs twice the power 720p needs.

Here's what it will look like on your 1080p TV:

(100% conversion in Photoshop)

Not so hot anymore, eh?

Resolution is so important.

 

[specialguy]

And all our hopes have to be tempered by fact and science.

That same fact and science must apply to all 3 equally then. Therefore relatively, the Xbox will still be the most powerful based on M$ $ in your scenario.

I'm not sure what fact and science you mean though, here's some science, the next Xbox will be 8 years after the current, therefore the leap can be much greater than last time, which was only four years after, fundamentally. Moore's law is this little scientific thing you should look into. It works better on 8 years than 4 year, multiple times better, by definition.

I do not think the next Xbox will be as cutting edge as the 360 for it's time, I think that's reasonable, but I still think it will be pretty powerful. Even a "modest" spec 8 years will be greater leap than cutting edge in 4 years.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

That is what I have been seeing as well. Seems most people expect 1080p as a standard for next gen which is not going to happen.

Hell IQ and resolution are the first things to be sacrificed with console devs.

 

[Karak]

1080p is overrated and I don't think it is needed for a generational leap. Take a look at this picture and view it fullscreen:

http://www.abload.de/img/tom-cruise-mission-im28c66.jpg

Image quality is more than just the resolution. I doubt that developers will go for 1080p, when it needs twice the power 720p needs.

Wait what now? Are we now lowering the expectations of the actual end result?

 

[themadcowtipper]

Umm, the 360 is the most currently profitable and immensely so, in addition MS can absorb far more losses than the other two companies in any case.

If anybody is in the best profit position to put out a powerful console BY FARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR it's Microsoft. These are some basic, undeniable facts. 360 will have built up a nice "profit cushion" by then as well. The 360 could easily be several billion in the black by then, essentially giving Ms a fat "Xbox bankroll" to play with without even needing any losses.

Is this even true. I know the Wii sold alot more units and was profitable from day one so.....




edit.didn't see the word currently.

 

[iamshadowlark]

I admit that I only have a cursory knowledge here, but I have a real hard time believing you have any idea what you're talking about.

The number Epic is citing refers to floating point calculations, which from my understanding is much more dependent on the GPU than the CPU.



So please, enlighten the rest of us, what else is going to be used in coming up with the 2.5TFLOP figure?

Because he's only talking about programmable flops, which is not the entire story of a consoles power. Realworld performance is as dependent on the CPU as it is the GPU, among hundreds of other things. Keep in mind that the 360 has a theoretical max of 1TFLOP.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

Wait what now? Are we now lowering the expectations of the actual end result?

Is there any rule which defines a specific increase in resolution as a generational leap? No.

Here's what it will look like on your 1080p TV:

IMG

(100% conversion in Photoshop)

Not so hot anymore, eh?

Resolution is so important.

I would love seeing games with graphics like that.