doubly so because the documentary paints Simpson as someone completely ambivalent, even hostile, to their cause.
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ESPN 30 for 30 - OJ: Made in America
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doubly so because the documentary paints Simpson as someone completely ambivalent, even hostile, to their cause.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Yes.
That was actually the most shocking thing about the crime-scene walkthrough: He basically killed them twice. He went back to both bodies and further mutilated them after his initial attacks against them.
Fried Food
Banned
I hope he finally admits to it someday. I don't care if it's on his death bead.
slightconfuse
Banned
Need to watch part five but that has been amazing and pretty revalotroy about the whole thing. Props to ESPN
Four Falls of Buffalo I think was the best one before this one.
Prime crotch
Banned
That old lady told it like it is, the slap on white America OJ's acquittal was; priceless. I'm more surprised at how long the damn thing took, almost a year long trial.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
He probably will. Hell, he basically did multiple times over the course of that documentary.
"If she hadn't answered the door with the knife in her hand she'd be alive."
"I took the left and then continued on up the street."
That letter Kardashian read
The phone call with the police
Episode 5 is interesting in how delicately it pays off the entirety of the documentary's thrust (the city of Los Angeles had this sort of karmic retribution coming after decades of racial intolerance on a fucking shocking level) while just as delicately making it very clear that the one-time payback they were going to get got spent on, somewhat wastefully, of all the people, OJ Simpson.
The satisfaction of it soured pretty quickly.
I dunno, I feel it was soured before episode 4 entirely because of the first episode's detail in showing OJ Simpson as an uncle tom. What should have been a very important moment was wasted on a terrible person.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
Nigga damn near wrote a book about it
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Yeah, but by that point he was doing that "I'm to smart to really confess, so I'll make up some dumb shit, too, and just mix it in."
Krejlooc said:
To clarify, I meant Episode 5 showed how the victorious feeling soured at the time. It didn't take very long. It's part of why revisiting the story now packs the punch it does. You know the cops are going to fuck up the collection of evidence, you know the prosecution is going to fuck up strategically at multiple points along the way, you know the system is looooong overdue for getting slapped hard with a taste of their own railroading, you know the only two people nobody's really thinking or caring about are the two people OJ killed, and you know a community is choosing to use this blank sociopath as their vessel for victory and they're going to be unhappy with the hangover the next morning.
For me, the only thing in both the miniseries and this documentary that makes me feel frustrated still is Ito, and the fact a mistrial wasn't declared once the Furhman tapes were discovered.
But this documentary is also great for showing just how little faith anyone in Los Angeles, including any of the lawyers, have in the system's ability to be anything other than an easily malleable bludgeon.
Nigga damn near wrote a book about it
its cool that you call him a 'nigga' are you in the lapd?
Dominican Power
Member
I feel that if Nicole would of invited OJ to dinner after the recital she still would be still alive today. I bet that little slight was the last straw for him. I also don't know why she didn't get as far the fuck away from OJ, knowing he might want to kill you. You don't live a couple miles away from someone you want put to distance between you, knowing how volatile he is. Marcus Allen is scum bag too. You were way too close to the situation for you to mess with someone's ex wife like that.
The Chosen One
Member
Fantastic documentary.
I was in my early/mid teens when the trial happened, so I understood most of the surface things, but I was clueless about all the subtext. I'm really glad they spent the time to explain history of the LAPD and the black community in the region. There was always a big disconnect between black and white people on the OJ trial. White people just couldn't understand why black people would ignore so much of the DNA evidence. I think they felt black people were just supporting OJ in the trial because he was black. But as the doc showed, there were a ton of reasons ranging from animosity and bitterness toward the LAPD to simply furthering their own self-interests.
I never thought I would want to revisit the OJ trial, but the 30 for 30 doc was like looking at a X-Ray of that entire era. I even re-watched part 3 with my kids, they were surprisingly fascinated by the whole thing. Though I probably won't have them watch part 4 until they're much older. I just gave them a retelling of part 4 & 5 myself.
To me, that was basically a confession. What I bolded is what he told his agent who was his close confidant for well over a decade. It's obvious OJ was the killer even before that but that statement basically puts it in the 99.9% territory and probably about as close as we'll get to a confession.
People can get mad at the defense, but the LAPD and the prosecution completely botched the case. Bringing OJ's blood back to the crime scene, holding evidence with bare hands, covering the body with sheets from the house and etc. Allowing a super racist cop collect critical evidence and then be the primary advocate in court was just moronic. There's always going to be mistakes but you'd expect this kind of incompetence from Barney Fife in a small rural midwest town. Not from a police and crime unit from a metro area that's the size of a small county and regularly deals with murders and serious crimes.
I was in my early/mid teens when the trial happened, so I understood most of the surface things, but I was clueless about all the subtext. I'm really glad they spent the time to explain history of the LAPD and the black community in the region. There was always a big disconnect between black and white people on the OJ trial. White people just couldn't understand why black people would ignore so much of the DNA evidence. I think they felt black people were just supporting OJ in the trial because he was black. But as the doc showed, there were a ton of reasons ranging from animosity and bitterness toward the LAPD to simply furthering their own self-interests.
I never thought I would want to revisit the OJ trial, but the 30 for 30 doc was like looking at a X-Ray of that entire era. I even re-watched part 3 with my kids, they were surprisingly fascinated by the whole thing. Though I probably won't have them watch part 4 until they're much older. I just gave them a retelling of part 4 & 5 myself.
To me, that was basically a confession. What I bolded is what he told his agent who was his close confidant for well over a decade. It's obvious OJ was the killer even before that but that statement basically puts it in the 99.9% territory and probably about as close as we'll get to a confession.
People can get mad at the defense, but the LAPD and the prosecution completely botched the case. Bringing OJ's blood back to the crime scene, holding evidence with bare hands, covering the body with sheets from the house and etc. Allowing a super racist cop collect critical evidence and then be the primary advocate in court was just moronic. There's always going to be mistakes but you'd expect this kind of incompetence from Barney Fife in a small rural midwest town. Not from a police and crime unit from a metro area that's the size of a small county and regularly deals with murders and serious crimes.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
It also seemed somewhat apparent to me that Scheck has been trying to make up for the shit he pulled in that trial ever since.
I mean, it was masterful shit. But to be a guy whose area of expertise is DNA, working that hard to get DNA removed, and doing it that well?
That probably kills him some nights.
I mean, it was masterful shit. But to be a guy whose area of expertise is DNA, working that hard to get DNA removed, and doing it that well?
That probably kills him some nights.
Officerrob
Banned
They had kids, and he had the money to fight anything she wanted to try and do
Yeah, but OJ WAS white America...
Hasphat'sAnts
Member
Work's been hell lately so I still need to watch episode 4 and 5. But it sounds like I should probably prepare myself emotionally before I do so.
firebricks3
Member
Finished part 2 and I don't want to stop, its so fascinating. I remember watching the trial as a kid but I don't recall much of what happened.
17 Seconds
Banned
Don't listen to them. There is absolutely no reason to watch the joke FX put out first. The documentary is better in every way. It's 1000x more dramatic/interesting/riveting/etc.
I'm on episode 7 of the FX series. It's still pretty good and spends a lot more time focusing on the mentality of the prosecution and the in-fighting of the dream team, which is pretty interesting. But it has a real hands off approach to OJ Simpson, who almost seems meek at times. And Cuba doesn't look or sound anything like OJ.
The editing is also hilarious in parts. The cross examination of Mark Fuhrman where they get him to say he has never said the word "Nigger" looks almost intentionally comical - they keep reverse cutting and zooming in on their faces after every sentence, and they speak with a faux cadence. It might be standard fair for hollywood editing, but it looks downright silly when you see the actual footage from the trial in the 30 for 30 series and realize the scene is naturally compelling without the obnoxious cuts.
What's funny is how closely the two series match on the details.
The editing is also hilarious in parts. The cross examination of Mark Fuhrman where they get him to say he has never said the word "Nigger" looks almost intentionally comical - they keep reverse cutting and zooming in on their faces after every sentence, and they speak with a faux cadence. It might be standard fair for hollywood editing, but it looks downright silly when you see the actual footage from the trial in the 30 for 30 series and realize the scene is naturally compelling without the obnoxious cuts.
What's funny is how closely the two series match on the details.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Most people who have seen both say they complement each other very well, although you should watch the miniseries first and then move onto the documentary.
Future Foundation
Member
Vault Dweller 111
Member
Sorry to be that guy, but does anyone know the usual turnaround for a 30 for 30 debut on TV until it makes it onto Netflix? I just don't really watch live shows like this anymore, but I'm really interested in this.
dunno, but all 5 episodes are on watchESPN
Fried Food
Banned
I agree with this. They are both worth watching. They both have things the other doesnt
Plus John Travolta is a such a ghoul (as a compliment) as robert shapiro
Vault Dweller 111
Member
Oh, damn. Thank you very much.
One thing that I find funny about the FX series is that they paint johnny cochran as this deeply convicted person who deeply believed in the civil rights movement. I find that portrayal a bit gross considering he was willing to pervert the civil rights movement to get a murderer acquitted.
The only time in the FX series I feel they show the true johnny cochran is when he says "I'm not trying to be respectful, I'm trying to win."
The only time in the FX series I feel they show the true johnny cochran is when he says "I'm not trying to be respectful, I'm trying to win."
firehawk12
Subete no aware
Well even the ESPN doc goes into his background. I guess the more depressing thing is that all these lawyers are fine with the fact that they helped a murderer walk.
Prime crotch
Banned
That's putting things a bit too in stark contrast, they we're willing to exploit the circus that OJ's media personality was in order to land an historical win for themselves and the people. OJ being a murderer or who he was to little importance, he might as well not have been there.
If that perverts the civil rights movement is a whole nother discussion, but I can't blame them or the jurors for doing what they did.
If that perverts the civil rights movement is a whole nother discussion, but I can't blame them or the jurors for doing what they did.
It wasn't a historical win for the people. It was a win for OJ, it was a win for Johnny Cochran, but for the people It was another loss. The entire ordeal is nothing but losses. The entire saga of OJ simpson, going back to the incidents in LA prior to his crime (like the Rodney king stuff) is just a series of systematic losses for everyone involved. Everything is a loss, even the 5th quarter stuff at the end. Nobody wins, everyone just gets their turn at losing.
LMAO the beginning of episode 8 of the FX series, where the jury is racially divided on Martin vs Seinfeld, and then it cuts to OJ Simpson laughing about seinfeld in the jail
lol
EDIT: For those trying to figure out if they should watch both - this entire episode of the FX series deals with something they don't talk much about in the 30 for 30: The way both sides manipulated the jury configuration during the trial. They basically turned the jury inside out by digging up all sorts of stuff on them as the trial went on.
lol
EDIT: For those trying to figure out if they should watch both - this entire episode of the FX series deals with something they don't talk much about in the 30 for 30: The way both sides manipulated the jury configuration during the trial. They basically turned the jury inside out by digging up all sorts of stuff on them as the trial went on.
Sorry to triple post but I'm on the last episode of the FX series and since someone asked if they should watch it after the ESPN series, I'd say a definite yes. It starts way slower than the ESPN series but the second half is great and the two series really compliment each other. There are dramatic points in the FX series that hit harder because they explained motivations in the ESPN series. For example, the ESPN series explains why Furhman couldn't say he didn't tamper with the crime while that isn't talked about in the FX series.
These two series have opened my eyes to really how interesting and complex this trial was.
These two series have opened my eyes to really how interesting and complex this trial was.
Ninja Scooter
Member
Powered through this whole thing over the last two days....man who would have thought that OJ's life was even more fascinating than previously thought. This doc only reinforced the fact that OJ absolutely killed Ron and Nicole, but it also makes me think that the LAPD probably did try and frame him. Too much coincidence, the blood appearing on the gate 3 weeks later, the one detective taking OJ's blood to the fucking crime scene, Mark Fuhrman being a complete scumbag, all that being brought to light introduced just enough doubt for some people, and those people on the jury decided to take this as an opportunity to answer 40-50 years of LAPD injustice with an injustice of their own. It's telling of just how hopeless and powerless those african-americans must have felt to latch on to OJ the way they did. And Ron and Nicole's family were just collateral damage along the way. Nobody won coming out of this. Nothing has really changed.
Nigga he black
Ninja Scooter
Member
"I'm not black, I'M OJ!"
Hasphat'sAnts
Member
"HE TRANSCENDED RACE!! A BEACON OF POST-RACIAL AMERICA!!!"
aussiedude08
Member
Ive watched episodes 1-4 over the last 2 nights, and will finish it tomorrow. [They didnt air in Australia till lastweek and have been busy]
OJ did it, but the defense turning it into a race thing, the judge let them get away with far too much. [like the tour of OJ's house when they changed the photos from him with white people to anything with a black person when they didnt need to see his house. and character assassination off anyone testifying against OJ like Ron Shipp. which led to others backing down.] and all the fuck ups by the LAPD, along with the black lawyer on the prosecution f**king everything up. You couldnt say there was no doubt cast. I think he did it, but being in a jury i couldnt vote guilty because of how much the defense were allowed to make it about race rather then facts of the crime and past threats/assaults towards Nicole.
OJ's private personality is fucking scary, against to his public/tv persona. The story of him verbally abusing Nicole and then leaving the kitchen and being all nice to her new boyfriend shaking his hand. or when the cops would come to a domestic call.
The defense made it too much about the racist cop, which had nothing to do with IF he planted the glove, that was a gamechanger for the trial.
I feel so sad about Nicole. and Fuck me the crime photos were graphic, didnt expect to seem in that detail, she should of left him years ago when they first broke up and never let him close again. the photos of her beaten up, police calls and the story on the first date when she came home with ripped jeans after being raped. All the beatings and threats he made there is no way he didnt do it. The murders were overkill no need to be so violent unless it was personal and in a fit of rage, he basically killed them both twice. the photos of the neck wounds on both victims were savage.
I believe one day he will admit to the killings.
OJ did it, but the defense turning it into a race thing, the judge let them get away with far too much. [like the tour of OJ's house when they changed the photos from him with white people to anything with a black person when they didnt need to see his house. and character assassination off anyone testifying against OJ like Ron Shipp. which led to others backing down.] and all the fuck ups by the LAPD, along with the black lawyer on the prosecution f**king everything up. You couldnt say there was no doubt cast. I think he did it, but being in a jury i couldnt vote guilty because of how much the defense were allowed to make it about race rather then facts of the crime and past threats/assaults towards Nicole.
OJ's private personality is fucking scary, against to his public/tv persona. The story of him verbally abusing Nicole and then leaving the kitchen and being all nice to her new boyfriend shaking his hand. or when the cops would come to a domestic call.
The defense made it too much about the racist cop, which had nothing to do with IF he planted the glove, that was a gamechanger for the trial.
I feel so sad about Nicole. and Fuck me the crime photos were graphic, didnt expect to seem in that detail, she should of left him years ago when they first broke up and never let him close again. the photos of her beaten up, police calls and the story on the first date when she came home with ripped jeans after being raped. All the beatings and threats he made there is no way he didnt do it. The murders were overkill no need to be so violent unless it was personal and in a fit of rage, he basically killed them both twice. the photos of the neck wounds on both victims were savage.
I believe one day he will admit to the killings.
Ninja Scooter
Member
I don't think you can really separate the race element from the trial, which this doc did an excellent job of linking. The trial became a referendum on 50+ years of unchecked racism, incompetence and corruption within the LAPD and unfortunately, the families of Ron and Nicole and the justice they deserved got trampled under something bigger that should have been addressed decades prior. Everyone came out of it a loser.
I don't know that OJ will ever admit to the killings unless there is somehow something in it for him. The scary part is how he told that Vanity Fair writer "you know if I did do it it was because i loved her" and then told his manager and AC "she'd still be alive if she didn't answer the door with a knife..." Almost like he was floating possible motives or explanations where he could admit to the murder yet still come out looking good somehow. The dude is a straight up calculating sociopath.
I don't know that OJ will ever admit to the killings unless there is somehow something in it for him. The scary part is how he told that Vanity Fair writer "you know if I did do it it was because i loved her" and then told his manager and AC "she'd still be alive if she didn't answer the door with a knife..." Almost like he was floating possible motives or explanations where he could admit to the murder yet still come out looking good somehow. The dude is a straight up calculating sociopath.
aussiedude08
Member
They tried to make it about a black person being accused of killing a white woman. more then it being OJ. and OJ didnt think of him self as black. It seemed like without any of the race stuff there would of been enough evidence to get a guilty conviction even with the questions about how the 2nd glove got the OJ's house.
I just think they used the race card too heavy. I think he did it, but with how they presented the trial i couldnt say i was convinced without doubt that he did, because they tried to make it all about race and the LAPD's racist history.
I cant really comment on the whole race thing in america from back then since im a white male in his late 20's who lives on the otherside of the world.
But yeah this doco has done an amazing job on showing the racism and police brutality in LA since the Watt riots, which i had never herd about till this doco, but was surprised they didnt go as far into the 92 LA riots even with spending a decent chunk of time on them.
I thought ESPN also did a good job at handling racism with the Ole Miss doco a few years back.
A Serious Man
Member
The FX series is worth watching for the Marcia Clark episode alone, IMO.
Ninja Scooter
Member
I don't disagree, but the LAPD and the culture that was allowed to fester in that community for decades made it incredibly easy for the defense to play the race card. Turning OJ into some civil rights hero is obviously absurd, but the fact that they were able to so easily says something. Maybe Mark Fuhrman didn't plant the glove, but having a raging, violent racist on the force invites the possibility. Maybe Vanadder didn't plant any blood, but having an officer incompetent enough bring OJs blood back to the crime scene invites the possibility. Those two things alone, for the black members of that jury who probably witnessed LAPD corruption firsthand for decades, was probably enough to create doubt. The prosecution deserved to lose that case. Nobody won.
The LAPD's treatment of black people, and the horribly-bungled investigation, is what allowed the defense to introduce reasonable doubt to the jury.
aussiedude08
Member
Shepiro saying that playing the race card and playing it so hard was wrong, and influenced the trial too much. At least he admitted it. He was paid to get OJ off, but that didnt mean he felt right about the verdict.
His agent saying. that he was told "If she didnt open the door with a knife, she would still be alive today". but then believed that OJ went there to kill her.
The Civil trial i didnt know about, I didnt know much about this other then he was found not guilty in the criminal trial. Glad the Goldman Family got something, it wont bring Ron back, but it was nice that Fred Goldman participated in the doco, but would of been hard reliving all the shit from the criminal trial again 20+ years later.
The Florida stuff felt like he finally admitted it to himself or stopped lying to himself about the murders and decided to run with it as a infamous person rather then famous.
The Vegas stuff did seem like he was set up, but also felt like Karma for getting away with double murder, also hard to not say it wasnt the law getting back at him. but Still Karma
His agent saying. that he was told "If she didnt open the door with a knife, she would still be alive today". but then believed that OJ went there to kill her.
The Civil trial i didnt know about, I didnt know much about this other then he was found not guilty in the criminal trial. Glad the Goldman Family got something, it wont bring Ron back, but it was nice that Fred Goldman participated in the doco, but would of been hard reliving all the shit from the criminal trial again 20+ years later.
The Florida stuff felt like he finally admitted it to himself or stopped lying to himself about the murders and decided to run with it as a infamous person rather then famous.
The Vegas stuff did seem like he was set up, but also felt like Karma for getting away with double murder, also hard to not say it wasnt the law getting back at him. but Still Karma
undrtakr900
Member
I was like 10 when the whole O.J. trial happened, I remember all the media hype around it, but didn't follow closely.
But after seeing those gruesome/horrible murder pictures, I am definitely sure he is guilty. That was some deliberate and intentional attacks from "emotional hated", especially to continue to mutilate the bodies even after they were dead or near death.
But overall amazing documentary, hope it wins some sort of award, like Best Documentary or Best Mini-Series.
But after seeing those gruesome/horrible murder pictures, I am definitely sure he is guilty. That was some deliberate and intentional attacks from "emotional hated", especially to continue to mutilate the bodies even after they were dead or near death.
But overall amazing documentary, hope it wins some sort of award, like Best Documentary or Best Mini-Series.
During the "initial" airing they played the uncensored version, but said in future repeats they would blur/censor the photos. As I said above, those photos are what makes me believe he's guilty as sin.
I bet, to O.J. being ostracized from "white america" was worst than going to jail.
They put the while series on the watchESPN App, should be on mobile, consoles, ROKU, etc.
Hasphat'sAnts
Member
Finally finished.
Absolutely incredible. Think I'll have some thoughts. Will post them later.
Absolutely incredible. Think I'll have some thoughts. Will post them later.
lightskintwin
Banned
Race played but only so much of a role. Quit believing it was the only factor. The Defense punched a lot of holes in the prosecutor's attack like Forensics contaminating the DNA evidence, getting the Police to admit to getting a sample of OJ's blood and taking it to the crime scene, as well as having an extremely racist cop who was first on the scene who the defense were able to catch perjure on the witness stand and later plead the fifth to all other pertinent questions like whether he planted the glove on OJ's property. Also the prosecution made a huge mistake making OJ try on the gloves and they didn't fit.
Also and this fact seems to be forgotten, there were two white women on the jury as well who would've likely identified with Nicole the most, yet the rendered not guilty verdicts.
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