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[Mr. Tibbs]

Following up on Mama Robotnik's excellent work comes a mammoth Eurogamer article on the history of Legacy of Kain: Dead Sun.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...uare-enix-cancelled-after-three-years-of-work

In 2009 the developers who made the well received Wii game Silent Hill: Shattered Memories moved onto what promised to be a much larger, much more ambitious game for multiple platforms. That game was a brand new, single-player, story-driven Legacy of Kain, the kind of project fans of the vampire action series have clamoured for ever since its glory days on the PSone.

New gameplay here.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

This still hurts.

 

[Black Republican]

looks pretty decent to me, love the animation when switching between worlds it looks like

 

[Obscuritas]

I miss the LoK's vampires, they were still cool compared to nowadays's bloodsucker puppets.

 

[Nothus]

Soul Reaver is crying out for a remake. Who owns the IP?

 

[KingdomHeartsFan]

This must have killed the devs, 3 years in and it never gets released.

 

[VelveteenTouch]

[It was more] can we persuade people who play Call of Duty now to play a Legacy of Kain game?

I'm glad it's dead.

 

[neonglow]

It sounds like Climax managed to savage some parts of the game and turn it into Assassin's Creed Chronicles.

 

[City 17]

Square Enix, like many other publishers at the time, used a service that predicts a Metacritic review average. Black Cloth was tracking at an 80 average. This was under Square Enix's expectations, which had targeted a Metascore of around 85.

Some of the people who worked on the game, however, thought an 80 Metascore, based on the vertical slice it had submitted, was a good return. The hope was that with more development time, it would reach the target Square Enix had set, and thus trigger a bonus payment from the publisher.

Kill me.

 

[thekiddfran]

I'm glad it's dead.

I agree, I hope this line of thinking is dead and buried now

 

[GlamFM]

Remember, every cancelled game would have been the greatest game of all time. That's the rule.

 

[Green Yoshi]

Graphics look nice, it probably would have been a decent action-adventure but nothing outstanding.

 

[Aters]

I'm not sure if the market for this genre is still there. Shadow of Mordor is a LotR game. Any LotR game that is not awful will sell well.

It's really sad that due to the increasing cost of making games, some genres are just fading away. I'm afraid we will have to look to indies for this kind of games.

 

[JaseC]

Soul Reaver is crying out for a remake. Who owns the IP?

Squeenix. The original is on GOG/Steam.

 

[Melkezadek]

I still think it could have been interesting. I could imagine them going a route where you discover what happened with Kain after the events of Defiance. What led to the world becoming what it is now. Raziel's fate could have had a role judging from the protagonist's appearance and abilities.

 

[Octavianus]

It's just not the same without Tony Jay ;_;

 

[Night Terror]

Gameplay looks great but the art style clashes a lot with previous games as far as I can see, no?

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Ah, Dead Sun. Dodged a bullet, really. I knew this already from the footage that got leaked a while back but if you still disagreed, well, how about this gem:

Climax's Legacy of Kain might not have pleased the series' most hardcore fans. "It wasn't for them," says a source. "They're a very niche audience, really. [It was more] can we persuade people who play Call of Duty now to play a Legacy of Kain game? Which is harder. We want to see him more violent. We want to see him covered in blood. That was the feedback we got. Ergo, that's what happened."

Hahahahahaha fuck you, good riddance really. Sorry to all the devs who worked long hours on this, but yeah, we're better off without LoK having turned into a focus-group-tested empty shell of its former self.

Edit: oh it goes on and on:

Initially, Black Cloth's main character, Gein, looked like Omar from The Wire, people who worked on the game say. Over time, and as a result of Square Enix focus tests, he morphed into someone who looked more like Pharrell.

"Everything with Square Enix is focus tested to within an inch of its life," one person who worked on the game said.

Square Enix also wanted the new Legacy of Kain to be "idiotically easy", at least compared to the previous games in the series. As a result, Climax inserted plenty of hand-holding into the game world.

But of course.

 

[Infinite_Daremo]

At least we got Nosgoth....

What i'd give for a remake of Blood Omen.

Ah, Dead Sun. Dodged a bullet, really. I knew this already from the footage that got leaked a while back but if you still disagreed, well, how about this gem:

Hahahahahaha fuck you, good riddance really. Sorry to all the devs who worked long hours on this, but yeah, we're better off without LoK having turned into a focus-group-tested empty shell of its former self.

Well.... I feel better now

 

[Inviusx]

Didn't look that great but it's a shame that the team put all that work in for nothing.

 

[Wonlee]

This has been talked about before are we going over the same subject again?

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Oh my it gets even better:

Black Cloth was designed as an 18-rated game - that is, it was meant for adults. It was packed with violence, nudity, swear words and dealt with adult themes. Sony's gory God of War series was used as a reference point for what the developers could get away with.

LOL. Yeah, talk about missing the point of LoK. LoK is very violent, yes, and it's for adults; but not in the pathetic, douchey edgelord way God of War is. It's beautifully and elegantly written. To use GoW as a reference... dear me.

"They wanted a game that was almost insultingly simple in parts," one developer says, "so it could be played by people who hadn't really played games before.

Climax also included a fair amount of puzzle platforming, which was in keeping with the series' past, particularly Soul Reaver. Some sections involved shifting valves and required the player combine their abilities with environmental navigation. Prince of Persia: Sands of Time is mentioned here as inspiration for these 10 or 15 minute long puzzle platform sections. But like navigation, Square Enix wanted puzzle platforming to be easy-going, and not too much of a challenge.

The combat was inspired by Rocksteady's wonderful Batman: Arkham Asylum (a game published by Legacy of Kain rights holder Eidos, which Square Enix had bought in 2009). Black Cloth would have a similar flow - fluid third-person brawling, but faster, and with a variety of finishing moves.

...People are still sad this got cancelled? Truly? xD

 

[GlamFM]

This has been talked about before are we going over the same subject again?

Read the OP.

Always.

 

[Shredderi]

Ah, Dead Sun. Dodged a bullet, really. I knew this already from the footage that got leaked a while back but if you still disagreed, well, how about this gem:

Hahahahahaha fuck you, good riddance really. Sorry to all the devs who worked long hours on this, but yeah, we're better off without LoK having turned into a focus-group-tested empty shell of its former self.

Edit: oh it goes on and on:

Lol now I'm not that sad anymore.

 

[BibiMaghoo]

It would have been a fucking abomination of a LOK game, or a completely unrelated game bearing it's name. Better that it doesn't exist.

 

[Candescence]

As Stark reminds us, this game wouldn't have pleased LoK fans nor really been really notable other than the gameplay probably being fine. The non-gameplay parts probably wouldn't have ended up like the dumpster fire that was the non-gameplay parts of DmC despite taking a similar gritty edgelord approach, but the game was being developed in the era where Square-Enix was severely overestimating their games' sales expectations. And this is with a game that actually had a fairly constrained budget for a AAA title - $30 million at most is fucking chump change these days.

AAA budgets getting larger and larger is a general problem in the industry in general, and one that can't be solved without cutting back on said budgets or the unbelievable amount of inefficiency in games development.

 

[Pafnucy]

Climax's Legacy of Kain might not have pleased the series' most hardcore fans. "It wasn't for them," says a source. "They're a very niche audience, really. [It was more] can we persuade people who play Call of Duty now to play a Legacy of Kain game? Which is harder. We want to see him more violent. We want to see him covered in blood.

I puked a little in my mouth...

I think it's better if they leave the series alone, rather than ruin it with all the focus testing and all the "appealing to COD fan base", which would create a game that had nothing in common with the originals.

 

[grandwizard]

"Everything with Square Enix is focus tested to within an inch of its life," one person who worked on the game said.

Square Enix also wanted the new Legacy of Kain to be "idiotically easy", at least compared to the previous games in the series. As a result, Climax inserted plenty of hand-holding into the game world. The game's "main path" would be clear, and take most players around 10 hours to complete.

But like navigation, Square Enix wanted puzzle platforming to be easy-going, and not too much of a challenge.

[It was more] can we persuade people who play Call of Duty now to play a Legacy of Kain game? Which is harder. We want to see him more violent. We want to see him covered in blood.

The explanation.

 

[Asd202]

The explanation.

Wow.

 

[Stairouais]

This kinda looks like a dreamcast era / early playstation 2 primal-y kind of game. Not technically mind you, but overall style.

 

[martino]

Yes it sure wasn't for fan...i don't find ambiance i loved in other ok in what we get on this game

But i would have been really interested to play it (because of some design choice)

 

[Sevket-Erhat]

Maybe someday we'll be united and our love will be divided

 

[Purple Cheeto]

And then there were wild sales expectations. At the time, Square Enix was a publisher that had what most consider to be unreasonable sales targets for its games. In 2012 - the year Legacy of Kain was canned - the Tomb Raider reboot came out. It sold 3.4m copies in four weeks, which was not enough to hit the game's sales target. Hitman Absolution sold 3.6m units and failed to hit sales targets. Sleeping Dogs sold 1.75m and also disappointed.

Ah yes, early 2010s S-E-E was incredibly delusional with all their sales targets. I remember hearing they expected a million downloads of LC & TGOL in Europe alone or some nonsense.

The explanation.

The Tomb Raider reboot was an open world, exploration based game back in 2009 or so, but it had massive technical issues.

"There was a period of a few months where Square was withholding payments where it was pretty much, if they don't pay it, Climax would have to let everyone go," one source reveals.

Sadly also typical of S-E-E.

 

[Monkeythumbz]

Wow, what an amazing article! Fantastic to see Bill go on the record about all of this.

Soul Reaver is crying out for a remake. Who owns the IP?

Still Square Enix, who own Crystal Dynamics through their acquisition of Eidos in 2009.

What's interesting is that Crystal Dynamics’ senior designer Michael Brinker has said that there's a "50/50 chance" of a new, single-player Legacy of Kain game releasing this generation and the studio has "in-house developers who really want to make that game", so a new entry in the series may still happen.

 

[Mr. Tibbs]

Talk about a shitty situation!

"The cancellation of Legacy of Kain hit Climax hard. It found itself in the bizarre position of working to fulfill milestones on a game that had already been cancelled, just to bring in enough money to keep the studio going.

'There was a period of a few months where Square was withholding payments where it was pretty much, if they don't pay it, Climax would have to let everyone go,' one source reveals.

'Everyone got the feeling something was wrong,' says another source. 'A few people got let go straight away. But it kept going. Then we started hearing rumours the game was done. We were told by the Climax producer we had to carry on working because we still had to hit milestones. Square wasn't paying us, and if we didn't hit milestones then Square would withhold further payments, even though the game was cancelled. It wasn't for very long, but for long enough that it was irritating.'"

 

[Mman235]

The explanation.

Sounds like this was a mercy kill.

 

[AntMurda]

Real shame. Would have loved that and a remastered collection.

 

[Szadek]

Oh my it gets even better:

LOL. Yeah, talk about missing the point of LoK. LoK is very violent, yes, and it's for adults; but not in the pathetic, douchey edgelord way God of War is. It's beautifully and elegantly written. To use GoW as a reference... dear me.




...People are still sad this got cancelled? Truly? xD

Well,not anymore.
As we have seen with Nosgoth they have no idea what to do with the series anyway.

I'm glad that we don't get many in-name-only games like The Bureau: XCOM anymore and it looks like this was going to be one of them.

 

[Nokagi]

Doesn't look like something I would have wanted to be honest. Gave me Prototype vibes.

 

[Clear]

Great example of the sort of contradictory double-speak developers on corporate-owned IP have deal with.

The thing is, in those situations its not that its an equal partnership. You give them what you want or they start withholding milestones, and once you get behind the 8-ball so to speak its virtually impossible to get ahead.

First of all your team need to work twice as hard to re-tool what you have to match the latest (idiotic) edict from the external producers. Then you need to deal with the overall design consequences of these often capricious changes, because suddenly you find yourself off the previously agreed creative map and need to bridge back onto it without breaking everything else.

This in turn results in renegotiation with upper management as to how to solve these issues and often results in more ill-judged and counter-productive "solutions" because now everyone is in reactive mode and desperately concerned with not slipping back further on schedule.

Its horrible.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

The explanation.

Bahahaha, couldn't be more spot-on.

 

[Candescence]

The explanation.

This in a nutshell. It's honestly a miracle that Human Revolution made it through the dev process while still actually being a proper Deus Ex game.

 

[LookAtMeGo]

Yeah. I reeeeeeeeaaaly realy realy want a new Legacy of Kain game. But not this. So glad they cancelled this. Sucks for the devs but good lord that doesnt even look like a LoK game.

I would have been ok with the game releasing but having nothing to do with LoK.

 

[Comrade Crunch]

Based purely on the gameplay that has leaked over the last couple years, the game looks like it could have been really good. I really like the shifting between worlds mechanic, never really seen it done in a 3D game.

 

[Monkeythumbz]

I really like the shifting between worlds mechanic, never really seen it done in a 3D game.

…apart from in the original Soul Reaver games, you mean - right?

 

[NavyPharaoh]

Wow I see why SE got a new CEO. The previous guy didn't know shit about gaming and the company really suffered. I knew when they said Tomb Raider didn't meet sale expectations and it was the one of the best selling TR that he was in over his head. Hopefully they still have plans for LOK

 

[torre_avenue]

I am not a Legacy of Kain fan in the slightest, but speaking as one of the potential members in the audience SE was targeting for this game, just the description of "ridiculously easy" turns me off. I don't enjoy games that do the bullshit Tomb Raider thing of popping something up on the HUD saying "Secret here!" like the player is dumber than a bag of rocks.

Aside from that, the pitch looks genuinely interesting to play. It's just a shame SE is such a slave to focus testing and internal metrics for Metacritic. I don't think there's ever been a great game that's been shaped solely by focus testing and this seems to go with that. I can only hope SE doesn't do this bullshit to their other IP. They fucked Sleeping Dogs, Tomb Raider and now this. I can only hope they don't fuck over any more of their new projects. Weren't their rumors they were doing something nefarious to the new Deus Ex game?

 

[TheRazielim]

Thank god it was cancelled. Wouldn't want the series to go down the same path as Silent Hill did. In any case, the franchise is effectively done for. Even if they somehow revived it, most of the important staff has dispersed and in this AAA environment, no one would risk producing a worthy entry since the story and lore has become so complicated over the previous games. This leaves us with the option of bastardized games such as Dead Sun: dark & edgy vampire game for teh kool kidz. Based on what I've read about it, good riddance!

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Based purely on the gameplay that has leaked over the last couple years, the game looks like it could have been really good. I really like the shifting between worlds mechanic, never really seen it done in a 3D game.

....Play the Soul Reaver games

 

[ProfessorMoran]

Wow, what an amazing article! Fantastic to see Bill go on the record about all of this.


Still Square Enix, who own Crystal Dynamics through their acquisition of Eidos in 2009.

What's interesting is that Crystal Dynamics’ senior designer Michael Brinker has said that there's a "50/50 chance" of a new, single-player Legacy of Kain game releasing this generation and the studio has "in-house developers who really want to make that game", so a new entry in the series may still happen.

Without Amy Hennig, what's the point is making another game? Who's still at CD during the Soul Reaver era? It's kind of like wanting a non-CliffB Gears, it's just not the same, as much as the publisher wants to cash in on an existing IP and the team wants to have something to work on.

There's nothing wrong with a work for hire dev like Climax wanting to resurrect an IP to get paid but they might not be a good fit and it's hard to capture the same essence from the original Soul Reaver.