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[Saruhashi]

Your day is ruined because some children are getting help?

See, for me this represents not only a really crappy attitude but also is symbolic of the nature of outlets like Eurogamer's politics.

I do not know anything about the charity in question and do not have time to look it up.
However, it is clear to me that Dontero believes that these children are in fact NOT getting help from the charity.
It is clear to me that Dontero believes the charity may indeed be harming children instead.

So your comment "your day is ruined because some children are getting help" is a bit of a twisted take on what Dontero is actually saying.

It's like if I invited you to a party at "Josef Fritzl's Basement of Fun" and you said "no fucking thanks mate WTF" and then my response was "you have something against fun". No.

Dontero is not saying "this charity is helping children and I hate that".
Dontero is saying "this charity is not helping children and actually is harming them and THAT realization is what ruined my day"

Again, no comment on whether or not Dontero is right or wrong. I just think it's interesting how you twisted it.

For me that's where Eurogamer and the like go wrong. They aren't simply discussing politics. They aren't simply expressing their political views.

A large part of what they do revolves around constructing strawmen and misrepresenting things and just not being very honest. Then they bash the strawman and expect the audience to cheer.

Unfortunately, many people see through it and request that they cut out the bullshit and focus on games.

There is a difference between talking about politics and political activism.
Folks are probably just sick of being preached to.
Folks are definitely suspicious that they may actually be getting lied to.

I am sure that 99% of people are FINE with children getting help.
What people are not fine with is pretending that any kind of criticism is met with "you don't want to help children".

Eurogamer offer political activism from a very partisan perspective. Part of this usually involves being dishonest about the "other side".
That's not political commentary and probably not what people want to be faced with when they want to read about or discuss gaming.

 

[Yoshi]

A game site should be free to decide whether they want to engage in political discourse. There certainly is a place for such and it is good that there are game sites that do, but also fine that there are some that aren't. If you have an issue with it, you can either read another website or ignore the political content on the site you enjoy.

 

[Winter John]

If I can just expand on my post here as I missed a couple of key bits - the problem is that games journalism has been more or less taken-over by one side through entryism, and we're at a place where for instance if someone conservative, white and male tried to apply for a job at Eurogamer they'd struggle to get hired, and more importantly if they did it would become clear that he doesn't fit in, and would likely not last long. Now that's a problem in itself, but the bigger problem is that they have now infected most of the big gaming news sites out there, I'm not sure there are any left that aren't under SJW rule, which means that those of us who don't subscribe to that ideology are stuck with nowhere to go, no good places to get our gaming news.




Counselling I'm ok with, though I would caution that if the counselling is being offered by activists it runs the same risks as a smoking company offering help on giving up cigarettes.

I can't imagine that trained counsellors would allow themselves to be influenced by activists, but I'm no expert on counselling. I just think it's much healthier for these kids to have somewhere that can help them deal with their problems, instead of leaving them to suffer.

 

[llien]

A game site should be free to decide whether they want to engage in political discourse.

Something (e.g. storms around Kingdom Come..) tells me, it is ok only if it is the certain type of political discourse.

 

[hariseldon]

A game site should be free to decide whether they want to engage in political discourse. There certainly is a place for such and it is good that there are game sites that do, but also fine that there are some that aren't. If you have an issue with it, you can either read another website or ignore the political content on the site you enjoy.

This is tricky on two levels:
1. There is now a serious shortage of sites that don't engage in politics from a single specific angle.
2. It would be nice to ignore that content, but it gets injected into non-political articles. Not sure how easy that is to ignore.

Additionally, I'll just add an aside: If a site you loved for years morphed into a site where once every 3 or 4 reviews, without warning, the author would enter a pro-pedophilia rant, and articles would be written by guest writers from NAMBLA, would ignoring the dodgy articles be possible? A bit of hyperbole I admit but hopefully you get where I'm going with it - surprise attacks of an ideology that I find to be sexist and racist don't sit well with me, just as articles about pedophilia don't sit well with most people.

 

[hariseldon]

I can't imagine that trained counsellors would allow themselves to be influenced by activists, but I'm no expert on counselling. I just think it's much healthier for these kids to have somewhere that can help them deal with their problems, instead of leaving them to suffer.

Consider what interests would lead someone to become a gender confusion counsellor, and consider the environment in the universities in which these people study, and ask yourself whether the activists are, at that point, already in the room.

 

[Yoshi]

Something (e.g. storms around Kingdom Come..) tells me, it is ok only if it is the certain type of political discourse.

I was stating my position on that, not speaking on anyone's else behalf. You will not find any protests from me against Kindome Come.

This is tricky on two levels:
1. There is now a serious shortage of sites that don't engage in politics from a single specific angle.
2. It would be nice to ignore that content, but it gets injected into non-political articles. Not sure how easy that is to ignore.

Additionally, I'll just add an aside: If a site you loved for years morphed into a site where once every 3 or 4 reviews, without warning, the author would enter a pro-pedophilia rant, and articles would be written by guest writers from NAMBLA, would ignoring the dodgy articles be possible? A bit of hyperbole I admit but hopefully you get where I'm going with it - surprise attacks of an ideology that I find to be sexist and racist don't sit well with me, just as articles about pedophilia don't sit well with most people.

Which is why I gave two alternative options: If you can ignore it, choose that option, if it is too much in the foreground, use a different website. For something as harmless as supporting the creation of an indie game with an inclusive message, if people have such strongly an averse reaction to that that ignoring said content is not an option, that is a sad state of affairs for them.

 

[Sqorin Hammerfarf]

I don’t mind them covering politics. I mind them covering politics poorly. Virtue signaling, pontificating, and criticizing their readers is for THEIR benefit, not OURS, and that kind of selfishness isn’t politics. It’s not journalism. It’s just insulting to be insulting. Get woke, go broke. Readers don’t just sit there and allow their intelligence, morality, or tastes be insulted.

 

[Winter John]

See, for me this represents not only a really crappy attitude but also is symbolic of the nature of outlets like Eurogamer's politics.

I do not know anything about the charity in question and do not have time to look it up.
However, it is clear to me that Dontero believes that these children are in fact NOT getting help from the charity.
It is clear to me that Dontero believes the charity may indeed be harming children instead.

So your comment "your day is ruined because some children are getting help" is a bit of a twisted take on what Dontero is actually saying.

It's like if I invited you to a party at "Josef Fritzl's Basement of Fun" and you said "no fucking thanks mate WTF" and then my response was "you have something against fun". No.

Dontero is not saying "this charity is helping children and I hate that".
Dontero is saying "this charity is not helping children and actually is harming them and THAT realization is what ruined my day"

Again, no comment on whether or not Dontero is right or wrong. I just think it's interesting how you twisted it.

For me that's where Eurogamer and the like go wrong. They aren't simply discussing politics. They aren't simply expressing their political views.

A large part of what they do revolves around constructing strawmen and misrepresenting things and just not being very honest. Then they bash the strawman and expect the audience to cheer.

Unfortunately, many people see through it and request that they cut out the bullshit and focus on games.

There is a difference between talking about politics and political activism.
Folks are probably just sick of being preached to.
Folks are definitely suspicious that they may actually be getting lied to.

I am sure that 99% of people are FINE with children getting help.
What people are not fine with is pretending that any kind of criticism is met with "you don't want to help children".

Eurogamer offer political activism from a very partisan perspective. Part of this usually involves being dishonest about the "other side".
That's not political commentary and probably not what people want to be faced with when they want to read about or discuss gaming.

"Fuck... my fucking day is ruined. Fuck. "

These are the words he posted.

I asked him why his day is ruined because children are getting help.

I didn't "twist" anything. I quoted him and asked him why his day is ruined is because children are getting help.

You, on the other hand have taken that question, accused me of having a crappy attitude, then twisted my simple question into a full length novel of Lord knows what else because the moment you accused me of "twisting" his words was where I stopped reading, but I'm guessing you probably do the exact same things you accuse me of. Who knows. Who cares.

 

[Castef]

"Under scrutiny" by who?

 

[hariseldon]

Which is why I gave two alternative options: If you can ignore it, choose that option, if it is too much in the foreground, use a different website. For something as harmless as supporting the creation of an indie game with an inclusive message, if people have such strongly an averse reaction to that that ignoring said content is not an option, that is a sad state of affairs for them.

For me, personally, the tweet's pretty low on the list of things Eurogamer have done to piss me off. The Cyberpunk interview would be a more appropriate topic if we're discussing my personal irritation (I can't speak for others). There was an opportunity to find out so much about how the game was being developed, the world it was set in, the challenges of creating such a huge game, maybe some insights into how it will play, and we got a shoehorned agenda that affects a tiny %age of people, because of wokeness.

Re the two options - the point is there's literally nowhere else to go, the whole lot's poisoned by this stuff, so what exactly do you propose as a solution for those of us not into this kind of politics who wish to get good gaming content?


Winter John - you kinda did twist stuff. He expressed irritation at potentially kids being encouraged to effectively self-harm. You twisted that as someone objecting to kids getting help. If you don't see how you're twisting words I can't help you.

 

[Yoshi]

Re the two options - the point is there's literally nowhere else to go, the whole lot's poisoned by this stuff, so what exactly do you propose as a solution for those of us not into this kind of politics who wish to get good gaming content?

I dunno, the website I write for is pretty apolitical (on the main site, the forum is a different question), so such websites exist. You could choose a website that more closely aligns to your views if no apolitical website is an option anymore.

 

[hariseldon]

I dunno, the website I write for is pretty apolitical (on the main site, the forum is a different question), so such websites exist. You could choose a website that more closely aligns to your views if no apolitical website is an option anymore.

All I want is a games website that aligns somewhere near the kind of content PC Zone put out back in the day - a real love of games, calling out sexism without being preachy about it (because PC Zone did manage it and that distinction of preaching is important), isn't completely obsessed with identity politics to the point where it seeps into every article. By the same token I'm not looking for a publication which constantly goes on about immigration, wall-building, how government is too big and always oppresses whenever it gets involved in anything. Basically I just want something that operates from a place of moderation politically, while still loving games in the way magazines did in the late-90s and early 00s, where today everyone reviewing games seems to be just doing it as a means to get to the next socio-political point and doesn't actually love games at all.

 

[squigglefizzle]

I haven't clicked on a Eurogamer article in years, and there are better options for frame rate analysis on youtube than digitalfoundry.

 

[Winter John]

Consider what interests would lead someone to become a gender confusion counsellor, and consider the environment in the universities in which these people study, and ask yourself whether the activists are, at that point, already in the room.

Counselling as I understand it is about helping people cope with stresses in their lives so I think it's more likely that counsellors/psychiatrists would go into that area to do research on the subject, or even just to get a job. As I say, I'm not an expert but I would imagine that research would be the primary motivation for most people in that field.


As for this -"you kinda did twist stuff. He expressed irritation at potentially kids being encouraged to effectively self-harm. You twisted that as someone objecting to kids getting help. If you don't see how you're twisting words I can't help you."

I quoted what that poster said and asked a simple question. If you don't see that I can't help you.

 

[Guileless]

I don’t mind them covering politics. I mind them covering politics poorly. Virtue signaling, pontificating, and criticizing their readers is for THEIR benefit, not OURS, and that kind of selfishness isn’t politics. It’s not journalism. It’s just insulting to be insulting. Get woke, go broke. Readers don’t just sit there and allow their intelligence, morality, or tastes be insulted.

Agreed, if a journal which covered gaming had interesting and varied takes on political aspects of gaming, I could live with it. But that's not what we currently get.

 

[MultiCore]

Seems like it's time to change their names to PolitiGames and Digital Candidate.

 

[dark10x]

Seems like it's time to change their names to PolitiGames and Digital Candidate.

Leave me the FUCK out of this. It has nothing to do with us.

 

[Saruhashi]

"Fuck... my fucking day is ruined. Fuck. "

These are the words he posted.

I asked him why his day is ruined because children are getting help.

I didn't "twist" anything. I quoted him and asked him why his day is ruined is because children are getting help.

But he doesn't believe they are getting help. He believes the opposite.

You could have said actually this charity really helps the kids and maybe even gave some evidence of that?
I mean, if you are clueless about the charity then it seems dumb to just blindly think that Dontero is wrong.
You could have easily done that.

He feels his day was ruined because he feels that this charity is harming, not helping kids.
Therefore he is not feeling his day is ruined "because children are getting help".

How do I even have to explain this?
He does not believe that the children are getting help.

Me: "My car wouldn't start this morning so I had to walk to work in the snow, my day is ruined"
You: "So because you got some great exercise and saw gorgeous snowy vistas your day was ruined?"

That's twisting things. FFS.

You had the option to correct the guy and that would have been good actually. Instead you twisted what he said into something he didn't really say.
It's not good and people can see right through it.

 

[Starlight Lotice]

I believe that Eurogamers Off Topic section is what Political debates is for.

Because of the average age of gamers who grew up in the 80s/90s are now in their 20s/30s and 40s, they are showing their more real world views in something that shouldn't really be encouraged because Gaming is a hobby after all.

If someone started talking about Environmrntal Issues during the Aquaman Screening or how Hermione Grainger is seen as playing to feminist roles...I would be very angry about it as I am watching these films for entertainment.


Gaming should be the same. Leave politics out of something you enjoy as there is a time and a place to talk about why Trump Sucks/Brexit Sucks etc.

EuroGamer might as well give up their mantra if they want to be yet another Real News Outlet...and we have too many of those as it is competing for our time outside of hobbies.

 

[Musky_Cheese]

Leave me the FUCK out of this. It has nothing to do with us.

Quoting so no one misses this and a pic to get their attention

Digital Foundry has nothing to do with this topic!!!

 

[Redneckerz]

"Under scrutiny" by who?

That's what the OP would tell you if you read further. You think under controversy sounds better? Because that was what i originally wanted to name it until i realized that this does not represent what's going on here.

Atleast now its more complete though.

 

[Sqorin Hammerfarf]

Eurogamer just shot themselves in the foot.

I don't know how much the rest of you know about SJW culture (I'm an expert), but honor and shame are huge parts of it. It's not like the real world, and readers get called an asshole. If you disagree with someone over in SJW land, you bring shame to yourself, and the only way to get rid of that shame is repentance.

What this means is the non-SJW public, after hearing about this, is not going to want to read Eurogamer, nor will they read Eurogamer's interviews on trangendered characters in Cyperpunk 2077. This is HUGE. You can laugh all you want, but Eurogamer has alienated an entire market with this move.

Eurogamer, publicly apologize and give us all non-SJW gaming coverage or you can kiss your business goodbye.

 

[Puskas]

I ditched EG years ago and time after time they show me that I made the right choice. The only good thing remaining about them is DF. Everything else is steaming shit.

No surprise they are celebrating a mental illness.

 

[Redneckerz]

Seems like it's time to change their names to PolitiGames and Digital Candidate.

Way to throw DF under the rock. Admittely that's my own fault but your oneliner take is terrible.

If you want to blame someone, blame me.

And to everyone else: If you want to target DF, target me, they were my words and my assumption.

 

[Winter John]

But he doesn't believe they are getting help. He believes the opposite.

You could have said actually this charity really helps the kids and maybe even gave some evidence of that?
I mean, if you are clueless about the charity then it seems dumb to just blindly think that Dontero is wrong.
You could have easily done that.

He feels his day was ruined because he feels that this charity is harming, not helping kids.
Therefore he is not feeling his day is ruined "because children are getting help".

How do I even have to explain this?
He does not believe that the children are getting help.

Me: "My car wouldn't start this morning so I had to walk to work in the snow, my day is ruined"
You: "So because you got some great exercise and saw gorgeous snowy vistas your day was ruined?"

That's twisting things. FFS.

Again. I quoted his words and asked him a question. I did not "twist" what he said. I did not misrepresent him. I quoted his post and asked him about that.

"Fuck... my fucking day is ruined. Fuck."

I know you desperately want to paint me as some evil social justice warrior hell bent on manipulating and twisting his post. I'm sorry to disappoint you but all I did was ask him if his day was ruined because children were getting help. I asked him that because of the above quote. It was a simple one sentence question. I did not twist anything or misrepresent the poster in any way as you were so quick to accuse me of in your novel about my imaginary crimes. Sorry.

 

[Bl@de]

They choose to be activists, I choose to not visit the site. Fair deal.

 

[Dontero]

Your day is ruined because some children are getting help?

Sorry but i don't consider jacking kids hormonal system with drugs and mutilating their bodies "help".
There is a reason why kids can't give consent and they are not responsible for their actions.

Because they are kids. They don't know what the fuck they are talking about or doing.
When i was 20 i looked back at my childhood with cringe because almost all i thought back then was wrong or stupid.

And now someone seriously says that kids voice should be respected. Fuck no mate.
Adults should be responsible for kids well being and not listening to kid whims is part of being responsible adult.

 

[Saruhashi]

Again. I quoted his words and asked him a question. I did not "twist" what he said. I did not misrepresent him. I quoted his post and asked him about that.

"Fuck... my fucking day is ruined. Fuck."

I know you desperately want to paint me as some evil social justice warrior hell bent on manipulating and twisting his post. I'm sorry to disappoint you but all I did was ask him if his day was ruined because children were getting help. I asked him that because of the above quote. It was a simple one sentence question. I did not twist anything or misrepresent the poster in any way as you were so quick to accuse me of in your novel about my imaginary crimes. Sorry.

So you asked someone "was your day ruined because children are getting help" even though anyone with even a shred of common sense would see that he was saying that he was upset because he believed that the children were NOT getting help?

I didn't think you were evil or a social justice warrior. I just think you did a shitty thing and I think other folks can see that too.

You twisted his words just to get brownie points on the internet.

You could have easily just shown how Dontero was wrong and the charity is actually helping the kids.
You didn't do that though. Why not?

 

[Noboru Wataya]

Eurogamer only exists as a parking spot for the great work from D dark10x . Eurogamer have been freelancing terrible bloggers for their content for a good too many years now and it’s only got worse. After they shit canned Robert Florence, they lost me. Adblocked to hell and only there for the DF content.

 

[StormCell]

Just follow the money to see why these gaming news sites are delivering a political message. Come for the video game content, stay for the "education." There's a real movement of money to change public opinion and acceptance of people of non-binary gender and sexual preference. The question to ask yourselves is why so many multi-billion dollar entities are funding this.

Who is the smoking man, and who all is he puppeting from behind the curtains? /s

 

[Aurelian]

The hilarious part is that some people here think gaming news can be apolitical, or that it should be.

Everything is political. Everything. Even when a gaming publication appears to be taking a neutral stance. The news and titles they choose to cover, the reviews they provide... it frequently hints at their leaning, even if it's a relatively subtle leaning. And the notion that you can somehow have a perfectly apolitical games site is wonderfully naive. Hell, even conventional news outlets with strong reputations for integrity and thorough journalism, like the New York Times and Washington Post, aren't too shy about indicating their lean.

And if you're going to pick sides, I'd much rather pick them the way Eurogamer did, which is to side with compassion and empathy.

 

[Horns]

Eurogamer has every right to take political stances. This was a video game related event so it makes sense. Let's be honest everyone is more involved with politics lately. I see religious sites talk politics. AARP and sites revolving around elderly are political. The military times gets political. There is nothing wrong with it. In this case especially because Eurogamer is covering a gaming related story.

 

[JimmyRustler]

A game site should be free to decide whether they want to engage in political discourse. There certainly is a place for such and it is good that there are game sites that do, but also fine that there are some that aren't. If you have an issue with it, you can either read another website or ignore the political content on the site you enjoy.

When you look at what is currently happening the issue is a bit deeper. I think it needs to be tackled but I'm not sure how.

See, gaming media clearly shapes to industry to some extent. I mean, developers need the promotion and the reporting right? So in turn developers have no choice but to adapt to some degree. Now the problem I see currently is that what gaming media is trying to shape the industry into doesn't really seem to be what many (most?) gamers want, as is pretty evident by clearly "progressive" games more or less are failing left and right. And I doubt that gaming media gives a flying fuck about that.

So I think that this is quite a shitty position to be in as a dev. I mean, put yourself in their shoes. Make a game that gamers want and risk being put into a bad spot from the media or do it the other way around?

And you do not think that this is a problem?

 

[Noboru Wataya]

Deleted.. didn’t mean to post (fat thumbs on mobile)

 

[Futaleufu]

I wish gaming sites kept their politics to themselves. When they don't, they stop covering some games, or even worse, they start to shame gamers for liking some games.

 

[ZiriusOne]

Eh, they can be political activists if they want to but i'm certainly not going to read Eurogamer anymore then. I don't want to be bombarded by politics all day.

 

[hariseldon]

Eurogamer only exists as a parking spot for the great work from D dark10x they have been freelancing terrible bloggers for their content for a good too many years now and it’s only got worse. After they shit canned Robert Florence, they lost me. Adblocked to hell and only there for the DF content.

Yep -am I right in thinking the chap from DF did the review of Ace Combat 7? Seemed like a reasonable review, hopefully he can be a good influence on the madness at EG.

 

[Musky_Cheese]

As long as a site is honest about its stance I have no issues. It’s only when they lie or try to hide it. You can decide to look at a site or not. It’s completely up to you.

Even on GAF, you can decide to ignore a user. You have the tools and choices to decide what you view and what you don’t view.

 

[Winter John]

Sorry but i don't consider jacking kids hormonal system with drugs and mutilating their bodies "help".
There is a reason why kids can't give consent and they are not responsible for their actions.

Because they are kids. They don't know what the fuck they are talking about or doing.
When i was 20 i look back at my childhood with cringe because almost all i thought back then was wrong or stupid.

OK well, I've been having a little look around to see how many children are being pumped full of drugs and mutilated and from what I can tell, no children are being mutilated. There are children being referred to specialists but I can't find anything about children actually going through surgery.

 

[Winter John]

So you asked someone "was your day ruined because children are getting help" even though anyone with even a shred of common sense would see that he was saying that he was upset because he believed that the children were NOT getting help?

I didn't think you were evil or a social justice warrior. I just think you did a shitty thing and I think other folks can see that too.

You twisted his words just to get brownie points on the internet.

You could have easily just shown how Dontero was wrong and the charity is actually helping the kids.
You didn't do that though. Why not?

Good Lord. Go away.

 

[hariseldon]

Just follow the money to see why these gaming news sites are delivering a political message. Come for the video game content, stay for the "education." There's a real movement of money to change public opinion and acceptance of people of non-binary gender and sexual preference. The question to ask yourselves is why so many multi-billion dollar entities are funding this.

Who is the smoking man, and who all is he puppeting from behind the curtains? /s

Presumably big pharma? A lot of hormones etc needed to make it all work.

 

[The_Mike]

You mean that towards me or towards gaming media? Because I feel that media don't have to accept shit as they are the ones shaping the industry. So basically at the end of the day it's us gamers who have to accept what is going on or jump ship. It's sad but I guess that this is all that's left for me to do if this goes on like that. Not such a huge loss though as said, not in the least because in my opinion this mine dodging game creation is hardly going to spawn great games.

I meant towards media journalism in general, not you. Don't worry.

 

[hariseldon]

The hilarious part is that some people here think gaming news can be apolitical, or that it should be.

Everything is political. Everything. Even when a gaming publication appears to be taking a neutral stance. The news and titles they choose to cover, the reviews they provide... it frequently hints at their leaning, even if it's a relatively subtle leaning. And the notion that you can somehow have a perfectly apolitical games site is wonderfully naive. Hell, even conventional news outlets with strong reputations for integrity and thorough journalism, like the New York Times and Washington Post, aren't too shy about indicating their lean.

And if you're going to pick sides, I'd much rather pick them the way Eurogamer did, which is to side with compassion and empathy.

Liked because you're right that everything is political, including selection of items to cover. However I don't agree that Eurogamer is doing it in a particularly honest way with how they inject it into reviews, interviews for things that are wholly unrelated, and because there are so few non-woke places to get news, there's literally no coverage of the other side politically, so there should be some pushback for this.

 

[Burger]

I like Eurogamer and read it every day, but man that Kingdom Come review was way off the mark.

 

[Fuz]

so bear with me

ROAR

I am so, so sorry.

 

[Redneckerz]

ROAR

I am so, so sorry.

You are a horrible person.

But Elon Musky_Cheese is more horrible for being able to like that post in 10 seconds flat.

Truly, horrible people.

Spoiler: What i actually thought

 

[hariseldon]

Good Lord. Go away.

A well-reasoned debating point there.

 

[Aurelian]

Liked because you're right that everything is political, including selection of items to cover. However I don't agree that Eurogamer is doing it in a particularly honest way with how they inject it into reviews, interviews for things that are wholly unrelated, and because there are so few non-woke places to get news, there's literally no coverage of the other side politically, so there should be some pushback for this.

If it's arbitrary, I can understand. There are certainly tactful ways to do it. With that said, I'm not sure if I'd want to see right-wing games coverage in the current climate. Imagine the polar opposite of Eurogamer backing transgender rights... it'd get pretty ugly.

 

[StormCell]

Presumably big pharma? A lot of hormones etc needed to make it all work.

I'm thinking more along the lines of the companies who make our food, consumer products and pollute the environment.