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Fabricated Notch/Mojang party escort allegations; Twitter monsters spring into action

May 16, 2012
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Well you can't exactly expect a bunch of women to just show up at a video game party...

Notch wants his guests to be happy, good for him I guess?

Still weird and a bit creepy.
 
Jun 7, 2004
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There is some evidence to say that Mojang weren't involved in what happened. To that end, I apologize for spreading misinformation. But I still find people's reaction to this weird.
Personally, I think you're attacking the issue all wrong. And where that happens specifically is when you overreach into asserting that the profession of dancing/modeling is inherently detrimental to the person who has chosen that job. You're not doing women any favors by protecting them via more limited options. It's entirely possible that some women enjoy doing it, and that it pays better than other options available to them. If that's the case, more power to them.

The issues feminists would be concerned with are, in my opinion at least, more in regards to questioning employing dancers/models at specific events depending on the context, or perhaps questioning the male to female ratio to begin with in regards to ascertaining why women would need to be paid to show up as opposed to already having women as unpaid guests in attendance. And when viewing through that lens, I'm not sure if Notch's private party is the right target for scrutiny.
 

unbias

Member
Oct 31, 2012
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News flash: many parties that are non-video game related pay women to attend, have drinks and look pretty. It's called promo or model work, shit happens in Vegas all the fucking time. I hate generalizing, but a sizable portion of people who are into gaming enough to frequent a forum such as this one probably don't know enough about social engagements where this happens and therefore it seems like something completely alien to them and then if their first knowledge of such a thing occurs in a video game industry function I guess with the current Internet climate of sensitivity to sexism I could see how such a person would be shocked at this practice. These women who do this promotional model work are more than happy to take the money and free drinks to just show up to a party. They don't need people white knighting for them. I don't know why a woman should feel less safe at a video game business function than any other one. Straight men are attracted to women and since men are generally more visual than women, they focus on a woman's appearance. This isn't "objectification", its attraction. It's not a bad thing for fuck's sake.
To be fair, that person who tweeted it, made it sound like there was more going on then hiring women to socialize, with how "bothered" he was.
 

Delusibeta

Banned
Feb 18, 2012
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I bartend at a nightclub on the strip in Las Vegas. Hot girls get paid like this to dance and be seen on the regular. They get paid around that much and dont have sex as far as ive seen.
 
May 16, 2006
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I have a number of friends who do these kinds of events. In Dallas, I did a ton of "brand ambassador" stuff for a company out of NYC as a side job.

Since I've been in Austin, I've become exposed to a whole new level of this style of entertainment. Here in Austin there are a ton of events that hire my friends to entertain. One friend is a member of a "sexy" dance group that just straight-up dances and kinda does "booth babe" style mingling/socializing. A whole bunch of other friends are in a group of entertainers that do everything from traditional burlesque, contortion, and very athletic pole dancing, (not nude, but I wouldn't judge them if they wanted to do that, either) to circus aerialist stuff (aerial hoop, silk, trapeze, ect.) They are very sexy, and that's part of the allure of the show.

This kind of judgemental BS just bothers the shit out of me:

This way of making money is not intellectually stimulating for a person.
Really? You think these people don't have intellectually stimulating conversations with all sorts of people in all sorts of walks of life while doing their jobs? My friends entertain for international clients in a wide range of industries. The tech industry is big down here and that's a big part of their clientele. They meet and mingle with an incredibly diverse group of people on every gig.

They also work closely with other artists in their productions, from a small show in a club or bar to full-blown, massive shows. This was how I became acquainted with these wonderful artists--I was pulled into their circle through an artistic collaboration. My friends, for example, not only run their own school for teaching all the above arts, they recently put on a massive, high tech, Broadway-style narrative musical show...directed and produced themselves. There were almost 100 people involved in the show, business people and artists from writers, musicians, actors, singers, classical dancers, 3D digital artists, set designers and builders, production designers, costume and makeup artists, video and photo. They put all that together. You think that wasn't "intellectually stimulating?"

Now, if you were in a club at a small show and you saw one of these performers doing their thing, you wouldn't know that...but that's your ignorance. Try not to judge entertainers when you don't know anything about them, would be my advice.

Have you ever learned about the history of burlesque, or contortion, or pole dancing, or circus arts? It's pretty fascinating.

These women could be getting a degree/making a real career out of their lives; instead they have given in to society's vision of them in order to pay the bills.
Maybe they already do. Have you never thought of that? I don't know everyone's history, but I know many of my friends do have degrees and professional careers, some in the tech field. One is even a mom with two kids, who got into doing it just for fun (she really just loves to dance in clubs, but her hubby wasn't into the scene anymore) and to stay in great shape. She can go out to the clubs and dance with her little group, and guys don't hit on her like they would if she was alone, because she's "working."

You talk about giving in to "society's vision" yet you are the one doing the pigeonholing. They are the ones breaking free. But you are the one judging them, based on a cursory inspection.


It makes that person come off as slutty and stupid,
Maybe that's your problem.

...and that something as artificial as money can pay for her attention.
Welcome to the real world. I run a very different business. But in my business, "something as artificial as money" (Ha!) certainly is the best way to get my attention. Really, often it's the ONLY way to get my attention.

Does that make me come off as "slutty or stupid?" Or am I just doing business?

It perpetuates stereotypes about an entire gender of people that have historically been mistreated by men.
I still have a hard time understanding how appreciating someone, even if it's on the level of just appreciating their beauty--hell, even if it's just appreciating the curve of their ass-- suddenly devolves us into pre-Sexual Revolution animals.

I think some people see things in black and white, when most people operate in the shades of grey.

It makes women who aren't there to make money feel uncomfortable, and creates a hostile environment towards women in the games/tech industry.
If they were trying to hire female game designers or coders to get up and dance, or trying to pressure them into wearing sexy outfits for the men, I could see where you are coming from.

I'm pretty sure this wasn't how it went down.

I'm against the notion of people being paid for their sexual attractiveness, yes.
Well, I'm against people getting paid because they can jump really high and slam a basketball. Wait...what? No I'm not.

I think you've got more problems than "society" or the dancers or their clients. You seem to have a lot of rage toward attractive women doing what they want to do if it doesn't fit into your notion of what is worthwhile. That's just as much of a control freak thing as anything. Really, saying someone dancing for a living and entertaining people makes them look "slutty or stupid" to you? That says that you don't look much past the surface, when people are often a lot deeper than you'll ever know.
 

Sneds

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Feb 4, 2009
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I still have a hard time understanding how appreciating someone, even if it's on the level of just appreciating their beauty--hell, even if it's just appreciating the curve of their ass-- suddenly devolves us into pre-Sexual Revolution animals.

I think some people see things in black and white, when most people operate in the shades of grey.
The problem would be if a man only appreciates women for their looks/sex appeal.

Edit: or believes that women's main purpose in life is to be sexually attractive to men.
 

Rubius

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Sep 2, 2009
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Valleyfield, Quebec, Canada
I'm a big guy. 6 foot tall, heavy, look menacing somewhat. I got many jobs because of my look. Mainly in security. When you take a job, you sell yourself to somebody for a service. Mine was to stop bad things to happen. That's what a job is. Its renting somebody so he can do something.

Now, if I was a sexy ass dude with abs made of Nintendium, why the hell would I not use my body to dance for people who want me to dance? It pays more and its way less hard than moving boxes all day or watching video cameras all day.
 

kamspy

Member
Dec 16, 2008
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I'm starting to think that posting outraged remarks about perceived sexism in the gaming industry is some kinda of new simping technique. Maybe the hopes of running into that unicorn esque "gamer girl" at a starbucks and being able to bring up a post history of ardent defense of this type of practice is going to make the panties drop.

I think it's overblown. We have respected women in high ranking positions in the industry.
 

MrChocolate

Member
May 9, 2012
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This is time where North Korea should nuke us...
FFS is a private party!!! If they were doing no harm to anyone, what is the f*cking problem!?
 

Tomat

Wanna hear a good joke? Waste your time helping me! LOL!
May 3, 2010
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I can't even argue for this one. I'm not going to pretend to be outraged every time there is a dancer within 300 ft of a video game developer. The IGDA thing was probably a poor decision given that it took place right after then panel about sexism and shit in video games/the industry.

Let's not deny or forget that the Internet blows shit way out of proportion too.
 

Rubius

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Sep 2, 2009
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I'm starting to think that posting outraged remarks about perceived sexism in the gaming industry is some kinda of new simping technique. Maybe the hopes of running into that unicorn esque "gamer girl" at a starbucks and being able to bring up a post history of ardent defense of this type of practice is going to make the panties drop.

I think it's overblown. We have respected women in high ranking positions in the industry.
I think people want more females in those position, also they want a clear 50% everywhere. The problem is that even if we want to delude ourself in saying that everybody is equal, they are not. Physical work is usually done by male where intellectual/multitasking work is made by women.
And then we have the regular hobby of men and women who play on that, like for example, I dont like cars, where other guys like cars, and so I wont go work with cars. Now for females, its pretty unusual to see girls in IT classes, Programming classes and all that About 10% of the class usually (2-3 girls by 25 students groups). So I doubt that we will see a 50% in stuff girls are not really interested in general. Its like trying to get 50% of guys waiters, or 50% of guy working as a make up seller. Some jobs will be dominated by mens more than women, and same for some jobs the other way.

Also, your comment on Starbuck reminded me of this fabulous cartoon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLKiLIQMiWI
 

Zen_Arcade

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May 23, 2012
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Why do you think some conventions like PAX prohibit booth babes entirely?
I assume its a mixture of the fact that PAX is an all ages event along with the fact that there are some people that don't want to see half naked people around every corner.

Both of which are perfectly reasonable reactions.

But if anyone is walking around and sees a model and the first thing they think is "Oh how horrible. How could she perpetuate the stereotype that women are good for nothing but their bodies?" then they should get their head checked.

Just because SOME women are paid to stand around and look attractive doesn't mean they're representative of all women and sending some kind of evil undertone that that's all that they're good for. Its that individuals choice. It doesn't stop anyone from doing anything in their own life.
 

Arkage

Gold Member
Sep 25, 2012
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I'm a big guy. 6 foot tall, heavy, look menacing somewhat. I got many jobs because of my look. Mainly in security. When you take a job, you sell yourself to somebody for a service. Mine was to stop bad things to happen. That's what a job is. Its renting somebody so he can do something.

Now, if I was a sexy ass dude with abs made of Nintendium, why the hell would I not use my body to dance for people who want me to dance? It pays more and its way less hard than moving boxes all day or watching video cameras all day.
Why the hell would you not? Well, work out more and do it since it's so much easier and you'd make so much more money, eh? The fact is that it is much more socially comfortable for men to be in a security job type position than a male dancer position. Imagine having a girlfriend or wife while being a male dancer? Imagine telling your family and hypothetical kids your a male dancer? Do you really not see the social implications of this line of work? Why are these implications any different if you're a female?

The fact that so many men here say "HEY THEY GET PAID LOTS OF $$ AND ITS EASY!" without thinking this kind of job brings a completely different type of lifestyle that most people find unappealing speaks to the level of ignorant men talking out of their ass. Notice the complete lack of females touting your arguments as legitimate. Coincidence? Who knew that getting upset at a company when they hire women to objectify them is now a "white knighting" offense.

Regardless, seems like Notch didn't actually hire these sorts. If that's the case, good for him. The fact that he knows it would be an issue if he had shows a level of comprehension that most posters in this thread completely lack.
 

witchedwiz

Member
Mar 22, 2007
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Not to sound offensive, but honestly this baffles me...
Guy try to salvage a sausagefeast and he gets the shortend?
Heck, if anything he should have hired male escorts too...
 
Mar 21, 2005
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Was the original twit/tweeter/whatever in the OP obligated to be at the party or something?

I feel like I'm missing a critical piece of this story, because the entire thing is just confusing to me and I powered through every page of this thread (although the lack of Misguided's highly entertaining moral-compass after page 2 was greatly missed).

If something is so amazingly uncomfortable to your snowflake sensibilities, express your feelings to the organizer's face and just fucking leave. If you don't have the stones to do that, don't jump on your magic carpet twitter account and whine about it. That just seems wormy to me.

Even if Mojang paid for 'escorts'- so? It was a private party. They can spend their money on whatever the fuck they want, assuming it's legal. It's not like they were crack-whore sidewalk campers that ended up stealing wallets/purses at the end of the night. At (a rumored) $300/hr I also assume it wasn't a Girls Gone Wild bus that pulled up and tits-for-beads antics started.



If there was truly some kind of injustice going on, sure, I get it, but this?
Again, I just feel like I'm missing some important information here... or people like Misguided or Holly Green would just call me 'another chauvnist pig' that doesn't understand the plight & struggle, whatever.
 

Sneds

Member
Feb 4, 2009
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Just because SOME women are paid to stand around and look attractive doesn't mean they're representative of all women and sending some kind of evil undertone that that's all that they're good for. Its that individuals choice. It doesn't stop anyone from doing anything in their own life.
Ideally. And yet we know that women are under-represented in politics and boardrooms. Is it possible that part of the reason for this is that women still aren't always taken seriously in professional occupations? Is it possible that the common practice of hiring women to stand around and look attractive is part of the reason that some men don't perceive women as their intellectual equals? Those are genuine questions and I'd be interested in your view.
 

Rubius

Member
Sep 2, 2009
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685
Valleyfield, Quebec, Canada
Why the hell would you not? Well, work out more and do it since it's so much easier and you'd make so much more money, eh? The fact is that it is much more socially comfortable for men to be in a security job type position than a male dancer position. Imagine having a girlfriend or wife while being a male dancer? Imagine telling your family and hypothetical kids your a male dancer? Do you really not see the social implications of this line of work? Why are these implications any different if you're a female?

The fact that so many men here say "HEY THEY GET PAID LOTS OF $$ AND ITS EASY!" without thinking this kind of job brings a completely different type of lifestyle that most people find unappealing speaks to the level of ignorant men talking out of their ass. Notice the complete lack of females touting your arguments as legitimate. Coincidence? Who knew that getting upset at a company when they hire women to objectify them is now a "white knighting" offense.

Regardless, seems like Notch didn't actually hire these sorts. If that's the case, good for him. The fact that he knows it would be an issue if he had shows a level of comprehension that most posters in this thread completely lack.
I'm lazy and most of the males dancers clubs are either Gay clubs, or are full, also, I do not know how to dance.
I do not give a single sexual intercourse about what other people think. People think that doing abortion is evil, and yet doctors still do it. People think that wearing a skirt is slutty and evil, and yet people do too.
Also, most pornstars, dancers and ect have family, husbands, wife and kids. Its a job. You do your 8-4, work your ass off and then go back home. Except that in the domain of sex, you literally work your ass off. My aunt was a stripper my uncle was watching her dance in the bar with other guys watching at her. Its a easy job, who really only need you to be lucky enough in the gene pool and be pretty. If she want it, and she is not under the control of some drug addiction? Why the hell would I care if she dances or if she fill spreadsheets. Its a job, it does not mean anything about the person doing it except maybe that sex workers are not shy people.
Here what a pornstar sound like out of the job. They are real people too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfX1RT8Rjao
 

APF

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Apr 13, 2005
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Thats not what I was saying, either. My point was that there would probably be plenty of people that weren't there to just talk about work, in which case the presence of some paid socialites wouldn't hurt a thing.
My point was more, if the idea is to talk to your buddies and coworkers, or people in your industry / etc, having escorts / hired-socialites defeats the purpose. If we're just talking extra servers, etc, who happen to be chatty, then there's nothing to see here. Or if the idea is, you're the club and you want the appearance of having a more equal mix of people so people don't leave, I get it. Or if it's your party and you want to pay for the appearance of being a 'high-roller' or something, well that's kinda creepy but it's your money (although being able to spend your money on what you want doesn't immunize you from criticism).

But if you're a business and you're holding a party for your employees, then I think you should be very thoughtful when deciding on hiring people to function as sexy eye candy, or as conversation buddies. That crosses into a territory that could conflict with most organizations' sexual harassment policies, if they have one (again, if the organization is the club, they likely have a different social norm than if the organization is a studio, or a public company, etc.--also, if the latter and you're holding an event for the public or the media, but not necessarily for employees, that too is a different matter).
 

badgenome

Member
Jun 13, 2011
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The fact that so many men here say "HEY THEY GET PAID LOTS OF $$ AND ITS EASY!" without thinking this kind of job brings a completely different type of lifestyle that most people find unappealing speaks to the level of ignorant men talking out of their ass.
And...? Who cares what "most people" find unappealing? If these women - who are adults - choose to make a living this way, who are you to assume they secretly hate their jobs and hate feeling like they're objectifying themselves? You don't speak for them, and neither does anyone else. That's where the accusation of white knighting comes in.

Where there is a willing buyer and a willing seller, there should be zero controversy.
 

Rubius

Member
Sep 2, 2009
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685
Valleyfield, Quebec, Canada
I know that was a joke, but this is real.


It was kind of a joke yes, but it was very real too. I went to a club in Montreal and on the other side of the street is the most popular striptease female club in town, the 281. There was litterally a line of women, with blankets on them, because it was winter, outside to smoke. Most of the females in my family went to the 281, and since guys cant enter without at least 2 women, its a lot of myths. But if you get in, its pretty crazy inside.

Guy bars are pretty calm, you cant scream, dance or yell. You sip your beer, watch the girl, play pool and that's pretty much it.
Kind of like this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MBoQTePZQs
Girls dont act like that in strip tease places. Somehow, they become crazy.
Kind of like this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5Ml5Ffw30E
 

Zen_Arcade

Banned
May 23, 2012
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Ideally. And yet we know that women are under-represented in politics and boardrooms. Is it possible that part of the reason for this is that women still aren't always taken seriously in professional occupations? Is it possible that the common practice of hiring women to stand around and look attractive is part of the reason that some men don't perceive women as their intellectual equals? Those are genuine questions and I'd be interested in your view.
No, because there are men who do the exact same jobs as these women. There are male models, strippers, prostitutes and even males in the line of work being debated about in this thread.

Attractive people are paid to be attractive. This isn't some new concept. And even if these things didn't exist there would most likely still be men that think women are not their equals. There have been men like that even when women didn't have the option to get photographed in a bikini for a swimsuit issue.

And some model shouldn't have to change the way she wants to live her life because
there is some sexist asshole in a boardroom who thinks women aren't as smart as he is. That again, is an individual with his own thoughts and opinions (no matter how stupid and ignorant they may be) and we shouldn't have to change the entire world just so that asshole might not think that way. Attacking the woman is the entirely wrong way to go about it. You should be judging the man for being stupid enough to think that every woman is the same as the latest model on the newest Maxim. He's the problem, not the woman doing what she wants.

You're essentially saying women should be able to do whatever they want with their
bodies....until they're doing something with them you don't approve of. Then they should stop because their personal decisions don't line up with what you think they should be doing.
 

badgenome

Member
Jun 13, 2011
911
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That's different. Because patriarchy.

See, he's not going to be considered representative of his entire gender. But a single woman behaving in a certain manner will be seen by stupid manchildren as proof that all women are sluts. Therefore we have to slut shame professional party girls and the men who hire them for their own good, and this is totally different from puritanism because it just is.
 

Arkage

Gold Member
Sep 25, 2012
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You don't speak for them, and neither does anyone else. That's where the accusation of white knighting comes in.
Yes, let's expect the people who depending upon their job for all their income to vocally and publically complain about their working conditions, expectations, and social mutilation they go through on a daily basis. Because that won't get them fired.

Bravo.
 

badgenome

Member
Jun 13, 2011
911
0
0
Yes, let's expect the people who depending upon their job for all their income to vocally and publically complain about their working conditions, expectations, and social mutilation they go through on a daily basis. Because that won't get them fired.

Bravo.
And so, of course, you have to speak up on their behalves without knowing anything about their situations other than your own preconceived notions about their occupation and how they must feel about it. Now who's speaking out of whose ass, Sir Galahad?
 
Jun 7, 2004
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Why the hell would you not? Well, work out more and do it since it's so much easier and you'd make so much more money, eh? The fact is that it is much more socially comfortable for men to be in a security job type position than a male dancer position. Imagine having a girlfriend or wife while being a male dancer? Imagine telling your family and hypothetical kids your a male dancer? Do you really not see the social implications of this line of work? Why are these implications any different if you're a female?

The fact that so many men here say "HEY THEY GET PAID LOTS OF $$ AND ITS EASY!" without thinking this kind of job brings a completely different type of lifestyle that most people find unappealing speaks to the level of ignorant men talking out of their ass. Notice the complete lack of females touting your arguments as legitimate. Coincidence? Who knew that getting upset at a company when they hire women to objectify them is now a "white knighting" offense.

I feel like this is a tough post to respond to because I think I agree with a lot of your underlying sentiment, but perhaps go a little too far in outright condemning the work entirely. For starters, I don't necessarily think that being ridiculously good looking and being personable with complete strangers is necessarily easy or something that should be considered "easy money" for those getting these jobs. But that aside, I think the other thing I would argue is that I don't necessarily think it's inherently egregious no matter the circumstance to hire models/dancers for a party-type event.

I think the issue would simply be if good looking women were pushed towards those jobs. The concern would be if women were excluded from the invite list and their presence was limited to being paid eye candy for the real guests: men. The concern would be that the industry operates with a stacked deck in favor of men being employed and not women by companies. A club operator surmising that a largely male audience might appreciate some attractive females in attendance isn't in and of itself something to take offense to, and it certainly isn't worthy of condemnation in regards to there being women who are eager to take on these roles.

Now, I hope that doesn't read as me suggesting that dancers and models and booth babes are always a good idea, as I certainly don't think that's the case. Depending on the situation, I think there are plenty of good arguments against the practice. But considering the event was a private party, I can't in good conscious assert that I think it's sexist for someone to think that getting attractive women on the floor might help liven things up, even if that meant paying models. The real underlying problem would simply be that in order to get that female presence, it would involve paying models/dancers instead of them just already being there as ordinary, invited guests.
 

Sneds

Member
Feb 4, 2009
3,100
0
0
No, because there are men who do the exact same jobs as these women. There are male models, strippers, prostitutes and even males in the line of work being debated about in this thread.
True. But it's relatively rare. It's much much more common to see women in those roles. Men in those roles also don't have the same gender stereotypes to deal with as women. I don't think that a woman would look at a male stripper and think 'men are only good for sex appeal'. Sadly, some men do have that opinion of women.

Attractive people are paid to be attractive. This isn't some new concept. And even if these things didn't exist there would most likely still be men that think women are not their equals. There have been men like that even when women didn't have the option to get photographed in a bikini for a swimsuit issue.

And some model shouldn't have to change the way she wants to live her life because
there is some sexist asshole in a boardroom who thinks women aren't as smart as he is. That again, is an individual with his own thoughts and opinions (no matter how stupid and ignorant they may be) and we shouldn't have to change the entire world just so that asshole might not think that way. Attacking the woman is the entirely wrong way to go about it. You should be judging the man for being stupid enough to think that every woman is the same as the latest model on the newest Maxim. He's the problem, not the woman doing what she wants.

You're essentially saying women should be able to do whatever they want with their
bodies....until they're doing something with them you don't approve of. Then they should stop because their personal decisions don't line up with what you think they should be doing.
A few things:
- I haven't attacked or criticised women for taking on these jobs.
- I never said that women should be prevented or disuaded from taking on these jobs.
- I wouldn't presume to tell a woman what job is acceptable or unacceptable.
- I never said that I disapprove of women who take on these jobs.
- You're putting words into my mouth which I don't like.

All I've done is suggested that the widespread practice of hiring women solely based on their looks for male gratification might have consequences for the way that women are perceived as a group in society. Personally, I think that it does.

I completely agree that the burden is on the stupid, sexist men to change their opinions.

I'm leaving the house in a few minutes and so if you reply, I won't see it until later tonight or tomorrow.