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Fallout 4: Changing the Shooting Mechanics
- Thread starter CraigerGamer
- Start date
Stranger In The Alps
Member
Yep, I completely agree. I thought Mass Effect 2 was such a step down from the first game due to the removal of all the things that made it an RPG. The streamlined (read: watered down) inventory system, less dependence upon character and weapon stats and overall feel of the game was heavily weighed toward being a straight up shooter.
As for Fallout 4, it's hard to say for certain, but Bethesda being a business, they are clearly going to shoot for lowest common denominator here. Making the decision to change, nip and tuck a few things here or there like this in the quest for a few more sales is hardly surprising. That being said, I've actually liked what we have seen so far. Worst case scenario: I will only attack using VATS.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
I hope they're not trying to shoehorn players into using primarily guns. I always play through these sort of games several times and try to make a purely diplomatic character, a melee one, and a hand-to-hand brawler. But this change concerns me less than what was shown with the power-armor and Gatling gun action at E3.
As a long time role-player (as in tabletop and old-school computer), I disagree. Stats are what dictate everything, not player twitch-skill. But I understand that's not practical for most people.
As a long time role-player (as in tabletop and old-school computer), I disagree. Stats are what dictate everything, not player twitch-skill. But I understand that's not practical for most people.
davey_jones_1217
Banned
A cut-off point for actual successful hits for lower level seems like a good idea to me.
For instance, if you're basically face-to-face and using melee or a handgun, I think you should have a pretty much guaranteed hit rate, with damage for melee being somewhat based on your skill-level (in RPG terms, not player terms). For longer distances, your point allocation in that particular skill (be it a thrown weapon or firearm) determines your successful hit rate. I kind of think unsuccessful attempts should award some experience, though, since you learn how to use an item when you mess up as well as when you succeed.
For instance, if you're basically face-to-face and using melee or a handgun, I think you should have a pretty much guaranteed hit rate, with damage for melee being somewhat based on your skill-level (in RPG terms, not player terms). For longer distances, your point allocation in that particular skill (be it a thrown weapon or firearm) determines your successful hit rate. I kind of think unsuccessful attempts should award some experience, though, since you learn how to use an item when you mess up as well as when you succeed.
Thank fucking god....this wa my biggest complaint with Fallout 3, shooting felt horrible. Hoping to see as drastic a change as Bioshock to Bioshock Infinite in terms of gun play. (I did not like that BioInf dropped most of the trap mechanics from B1, but the overall shooting felt much much better)
Fried Food
Banned
People acting like this game is going to be a twitch shooter. Anyone with any FPS experience is going to have no problem lining up shots. I hope the game isn't too easy now.
CraigerGamer
Member
i am not mad. I just hope there is a feeling of progression in the gunplay. Allowing for mechanics that force a poor shots is a great option for creating characters. It also really makes the SPECIAL more special. It makes the gun stats matter.
Jeronimo Jones
Member
I like this approach better than clearly hitting a target and "missing" or doing no damage because reasons.
One of the reasons I mostly used VATS was that neither the number crunching nor the shooting felt right when playing it as a shooter.
Unless it's much improved, I'll probably still make use of VATS as much as possible.
One of the reasons I mostly used VATS was that neither the number crunching nor the shooting felt right when playing it as a shooter.
Unless it's much improved, I'll probably still make use of VATS as much as possible.
Sato Koiji
Member
This isnt anything new. Try shooting stuff with low stats in F3 and Vegas and see how that goes. Oh yeah, you are missing....
dantevsninjas
Member
Just look at New Vegas' combat system and do that. Problem solved.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Because that's how stats work in old RPGs (which early Fallouts were part of). You can't compensate a character's low-stats with the player's skill.
theusedversion
Member
To be honest, I liked the way it was. I don't want to play Call of Duty.
Yes, I know I'm being hyperbolic
Femmeworth
Banned
Did New Vegas really alter the mechanics any?
Watch them only add a better crosshair. New vegas was fine in terms of balancing both. I mean. I can one shot a deathclaw with a sniper rifle across the map with 100% crit and I was aiming exactly on his head. Vats wasn't always the superior option. The biggest problem with 3 and NV is that the AI have unpredictable/ fast movement so you can't realistically have good cross hair placement unless they are running straight at you. I'm all for better gunplay.
Sato Koiji
Member
Im talking about aim. You aim what seems to be the perfect head shot or torso shot and you miss. Like I said...try using guns with low stats wether it is hip firing or scoping...you arent gonna have a good time.
Tal Shiar Agent
Banned
This is probably just the tip of the iceberg with the casualization in this game. The game world will probably no sense just like FO3. Let's put a city inside an old stadium just because it's cool and "forget" to answer the question "what do they eat?"
Uh. Didn't read his quote right the first time around so thought they were just looking to improve the mechanics whilst keeping the stats. If they remove the focus on stats (and lets be honest about what it will become - a health stat increase with levels) then I don't think this is a good thing at all.
Zeuanimals
Member
PC (and later Xbox One and maybe PS4) mods to the rescue!
It's gonna be one of the first mods out of the gate, maybe we could even be able to tweak it with console commands.
aaa developer on aaa series announces it's streamlining mechanics for the mass market
Shocking twist. Especially coming from bethesda of all people, I mean skyrim was just so muc more involved mechanically than morrowind that I cant /believe/ the same developers would do something like this in another series they work on :O!
Shocking twist. Especially coming from bethesda of all people, I mean skyrim was just so muc more involved mechanically than morrowind that I cant /believe/ the same developers would do something like this in another series they work on :O!
If you’re good at aiming, says Howard, you can compensate somewhat for lower stats. But not entirely
Sounds like it's still very stat-driven. And it's Bethesda, so of course it will be. They aren't action game designers. They make RPG's.
Roll on the overreactions, though!
EDIT: Yup, just about everybody is overreacting massively, as always.
Zeuanimals
Member
I'm okay with it if you're keeping sustained fire. Higher stats allows you to keep your gun steady while firing off rounds.
Neuromancer
Member
Sounds good to me. I plan on playing F4 without VATS which was almost impossible in F3.
I like how very very careful he was with that statement and people basically interpreting it as "we're removing stats from aiming entirely".
Classic
SensibleChuckle.gif
Confidence Man
Member
Game gets worse by the minute.
Tal Shiar Agent
Banned
It's not overreaction when we have a direct comparison to how the game's RPG mechanics should work compared to how they will work.
Fallout: New Vegas
Thing is, games like Battlefield have stat-based performance, too, but centered on the guns. They do it so it feeds in naturally with how a gun should work, like having high-recoil weapons, different firing speeds, or low bullet drop.
Stats will always have a place in shooters because you need ways to differentiate the guns, but it's the RNG aspect of stats that gets annoying.
Role-playing is what's important, not roll-playing. That can become an interesting question when role-playing something like an engineer, for example, I'll admit. But there are better ways to handle this than RNG, such as simply making guns harder to handle.
To be clear, I'm not anti-stat-based performance. I think FO3 and NV should have been 100% VATS combat. I'm anti-hybrid.
Stats will always have a place in shooters because you need ways to differentiate the guns, but it's the RNG aspect of stats that gets annoying.
Role-playing is what's important, not roll-playing. That can become an interesting question when role-playing something like an engineer, for example, I'll admit. But there are better ways to handle this than RNG, such as simply making guns harder to handle.
To be clear, I'm not anti-stat-based performance. I think FO3 and NV should have been 100% VATS combat. I'm anti-hybrid.
Aw snap.
I still think they could have two different combat modes to ensure that they're appealing to fans who want a more traditional RPG combat system. The "RPG mode" shouldn't just be an "easy mode", mind you, and should have difficulty options akin to the "FPS mode".
NoblesseOblige
Banned
If the changes are too drastic to fit my more niche desires then hopefully the modding community can fix it like they've done for other Bethesda games.
davey_jones_1217
Banned
EXACTLY.
There's a medium ground between 'I can't hit anything from any distance' to 'I can shoot everything from any distance.' Familiarity with weapons, as well as experience in combat, should be reflected using in-game mechanics; leveling in skills is as good an abstraction as any, but I don't think it should be the sole determining factor.
A system that allows for a much easier hit attempt based on distance and sustained fire is, I think, a better system than one that eliminates both the roll attempt, as well as making you completely ineffectual at close distance.
Stallion Dan
Member
Personally I'd to see stuff like this put into a casual/noob mode and the main game be RPG heavy.
Solid Samus
Banned
you can really tell who's never touched a rebalance mod up in here
When I play Fallout 3 I usually first install rh_ironsights, and then Fallout Wanderer's Edition and jack up the effect stats have on my shooting. Considering that I usually opt for low 'gun' skill in Fallout 3, do you know what that means?
That means that for the first twenty hours, my gun sways over a good third of the screen space whenever I try and shoot.
That's gunsway that's meaningfully affected by my stats. Shit's HARD. Way harder, way more reliant on stats than the standards of vanilla Fallout that some of y'all are disappointed that FO4 might not reach...
but
you know what?
I can still hit people every now and then.
thanks to my aim. I can physically compensate for my gun sway and shoot central mass from certain ranges depending on the gun to compensate for the RPG roll aspect in bullet trajectory.
these things don't have to be mutually exclusive. think about it. just a little. that's all it takes.
This news doesn't say that the RPG rolls have been entirely removed from the equation when it comes to shooting.
It just suggests that the shooting sucks a bit less at its core and plays more like a proper shooter.
I don't understand how that's supposed to be a bad thing.
As an aside, your post just further reinforces the fact that you're out to derail this thread rather than contribute anything of genuine worth, meaning, or value to it.
Thanks a bunch you jackass
When I play Fallout 3 I usually first install rh_ironsights, and then Fallout Wanderer's Edition and jack up the effect stats have on my shooting. Considering that I usually opt for low 'gun' skill in Fallout 3, do you know what that means?
That means that for the first twenty hours, my gun sways over a good third of the screen space whenever I try and shoot.
That's gunsway that's meaningfully affected by my stats. Shit's HARD. Way harder, way more reliant on stats than the standards of vanilla Fallout that some of y'all are disappointed that FO4 might not reach...
but
you know what?
I can still hit people every now and then.
thanks to my aim. I can physically compensate for my gun sway and shoot central mass from certain ranges depending on the gun to compensate for the RPG roll aspect in bullet trajectory.
these things don't have to be mutually exclusive. think about it. just a little. that's all it takes.
This news doesn't say that the RPG rolls have been entirely removed from the equation when it comes to shooting.
It just suggests that the shooting sucks a bit less at its core and plays more like a proper shooter.
I don't understand how that's supposed to be a bad thing.
As an aside, your post just further reinforces the fact that you're out to derail this thread rather than contribute anything of genuine worth, meaning, or value to it.
Thanks a bunch you jackass
I don't see the problem here.
To me , this sounds the same as the new vegas system.
Also if i aim dead center at somebodys head and my weapon is well maintained why shouldn't the bullet hit the target ?
weapon skill should improve damage and weapon sway reduction , but i don't like it that my well aimed shot misses because RNG screws me over .
ive had enough of that after Morrowind.
To me , this sounds the same as the new vegas system.
Also if i aim dead center at somebodys head and my weapon is well maintained why shouldn't the bullet hit the target ?
weapon skill should improve damage and weapon sway reduction , but i don't like it that my well aimed shot misses because RNG screws me over .
ive had enough of that after Morrowind.
Disclaimer : I'm not familiar with this kind of games.
Couldn't they make the stats alter the aiming in a way that is perfectly clear and fair for the player ?
Like in the old deus ex where a low aiming stat resulted in a very large crossair. The higher the stat, the smaller the crossair.
Or like in other games that make your virtual hand shake when using a sniper : the higher the stat, the steadier the hand.
That way, a clean shot is always possible but requires the player's skills to overcome his avatar's stats.
I'm sure this already exist
Couldn't they make the stats alter the aiming in a way that is perfectly clear and fair for the player ?
Like in the old deus ex where a low aiming stat resulted in a very large crossair. The higher the stat, the smaller the crossair.
Or like in other games that make your virtual hand shake when using a sniper : the higher the stat, the steadier the hand.
That way, a clean shot is always possible but requires the player's skills to overcome his avatar's stats.
I'm sure this already exist
BrokenIcarus
Member
Eh, I hated my dodging being tied to a stat in DS2, so I'm pretty okay with this.
Don't punish players with skills.
Don't punish players with skills.
Tal Shiar Agent
Banned
I don't see how the Fallout 3/NV gun system is a RNG. From what I understand it's an equation. Your gunskill is the default percentage. 50 points equals 50% chance of hitting your target. The other parts of the equation are SPECIAL, distance, movement, stance, weapon condition, and ammunition with perk and weapon mod modifiers.
It's not random at all. Unless I'm completely mistaken here.
Rimon-hanit
Member
It seems like they are just separating the combat mechanic from the rest of the game, and given it its own focus, sounds like a good idea.
I don't recall it doing much with the combat, other than making fixed enemy levels more of a norm.
davey_jones_1217
Banned
As an aside, this topic just further reinforces the fact that FO3 is horrible in comparison to New Vegas.
Actually, even by itself.
Hm, yeah just what another Fallout 4 thread needs. More Fallout 3 vs New Vegas tripe. I long for the day where a thread about Fallout 4 just sticks to Fallout 4.