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[CheesecakeRecipe]

have you been there whining at every other multiplayer FPS launch when they had no female characters for online play?

seriously

Well since you singled me out - I don't play very many multi shooters at all but I do believe the choice should be there. I spoke frequently on other forums and the steam forums in an attempt to get female soldiers in CS:GO, a series that I have an extremely long history with and a series that is viciously against a lot of changes. There was positive response to female soldiers being in GO, but it was ultimately decided against because of time constraint. They had even come up with unique solutions for situations when realistically modeled armor made one model taller than the other, by changing the stance with which they entered battle. They're very detail oriented and it shows. Something like that could easily support female soldiers being "Shorter" than their male counterparts for the sake of gaming competitive equality.

It's not about whining and coming up with childish playground arguments in some feeble attempt to add yourself to the discussion. It's about giving players the choice and adding value for females who wish to play and represent themselves as such, or guys who feel like playing as women. I'm sure 99% of this thread has gone completely over your head though.

 

[-PXG-]

Modelling, texturing, rigging, animating, collision and hit box mapping and voice talent.

Yeah... Makes sense. It's too much work, plus it creates a balance issue in MP.

 

[Anton Sugar]

What's part of the problem?

Something made specifically for men?


Hardly a crime is it?

The problem is assuming that ONLY men want to play these sorts of games. It's false and exclusionary.

Go look up some of the reactions to the death scenes in Tomb Raider.

Or the reactions to the scene in God of War where Kratos pummels a female nonhuman character.

My reaction to these is that they're disgusting and tasteless. No different than if it were done to a male. I'm sure there are a number of (misguided) "I don't like seeing women hurt" posters, though.

 

[Screaming Meat]

...plus it creates a balance issue in MP.

It does...?

 

[rvy]

It does...?

If the hitboxes are smaller, yes.

 

[-PXG-]

It does...?

It could. Hypothetically, a female player would be smaller, thus they'd probably have a smaller hit box. That gives players an advantage in something that should be purely cosmetic

 

[FinKL]

I'm saddened, why would they show a female soldier (CG sequence?) and say it won't be in MP. If they model the skeleton for SP it should be easily transferable to MP. The very least they could just give us a skin/palette swap with male skeleton, that's how all the old school FPS's worked.

 

[RedSwirl]

Maybe this doesn't apply anymore, but a few years ago I heard that this kind of thing in "realistic" shooters had something to do with how the engine processed an animated all characters onscreen based on the same skeletal model, and having to animate female character models would double the workload on the CPU. I think it only applied way back on BF2 or something like that though.

 

[Hex]

Probably just did not want to deal with the backlash when screens and video get out of various teabagging and corpse raping all over youtube with headlines blasting the company for allowing such a horrible thing.
This is the world we now live in.

 

[Anton Sugar]

I think hitboxes are a legit concern, since even if they went by average height for men/women, women would be smaller, overall. Doesn't mean they couldn't just say "fuck it" and standardize the height, though.

On the spectrum of reasons to not include female character models in MP, the "legit" side is smaller hitboxes, while the "complete bullshit" side is full of WAR IS FOR MEN excuses.

 

[Not Spaceghost]

My reaction to these is that they're disgusting and tasteless. No different than if it were done to a male. I'm sure there are a number of (misguided) "I don't like seeing women hurt" posters, though.

So why was there no reaction to the even more brutal pummeling that poseidon got in GoW3? Or the one hercules got im the same game?! There is definitely a double standard you cant disregard that.

Even still, Sheva being brutally killed multiple times in RE5 caused no outrage. Some of those deaths were pretty harsh too.

 

[sonicmj1]

It was fun playing as Faith in Mirror's Edge. I didn't see a need for a male playable Faith.

It was fun playing as Nathan Drake in Uncharted. I didn't see a need for a female playable Drake.

If DICE could get playable female characters into BF4, great. However, the vast majority of games out there do not have a Mass Effect type system where you can choose male/female main characters. Sometimes it appears that big budget (especially EA) publishers are damned if they do, damned if they don't by the enthusiast community regardless of what they do or say.

Maybe you're just talking about singleplayer, but at least in multiplayer, Naughty Dog didn't seem to have any problem letting me play Elena or Chloe.

 

[Jburton]

The problem is assuming that ONLY men want to play these sorts of games. It's false and exclusionary.



My reaction to these is that they're disgusting and tasteless. No different than if it were done to a male. I'm sure there are a number of (misguided) "I don't like seeing women hurt" posters, though.

I am sure the amount of girls who want to play a war game is minuscule.


Are you going to go into things made for women and shout about the lack of inclusion for men? .............. I doubt it.


Seems like another example of seeing something for men and shouting about a lack of inclusion as it seems to be a crime to have things solely for men.

 

[partyphone]

the female models don't have to be smaller....

 

[Rorschach]

Yup. Not sure if a serious question though.

The ban was only lifted recently. Shouldn't be surprising some people don't know about it. Especially those from outside the US. And females still can't do spec ops.

 

[Screaming Meat]

It could. Hypothetically, a female player would be smaller, thus they'd probably have a smaller hit box. That gives players an advantage in something that should be purely cosmetic

That was ceratinly the case in Max Payne 3, but it doesn't have to be:

I actually made this years ago for a similar thread. Female silhouettes aren't different enough to fuck with gameplay, especially considering the netcode already helps you make hits..

Also, you could say that it's weird that every man must be 6'6" and all women must be portrayed as 5'2". Just make 'em both 5'9", boom, you have compatible bipeds for your shooter. In Reach and H4, both females and males are 7 feet tall.

 

[Anton Sugar]

So why was there no reaction to the even more brutal pummeling that poseidon got in GoW3? Or the one hercules got im the same game?! There is definitely a double standard you cant disregard that.

Even still, Sheva being brutally killed multiple times in RE5 caused no outrage. Some of those deaths were pretty harsh too.

I can only speak for myself and I am not against violence just on the basis of it being violent; it's more about tone and how death/violence is handled in the game. That's a discussion for a different time, though.

 

[VanillaCakeIsBurning]

Modelling, texturing, rigging, animating, collision and hit box mapping and voice talent.

Yeah... Makes sense. It's too much work, plus it creates a balance issue in MP.

This is such a joke, there's a reason why no one has complained about female model hitboxes in online games until now.

Because it's bullshit. By this logic online games should only ever have one player model for all characters because otherwise there is a "balance issue".

People in here are talking as if female models being included would mean that their hitboxes would be 90% smaller than the male models instead of being the same which is just a ridiculous notion propped up just to discredit the idea.

Of course you'll still have people harping on about how the female models would need to be half as tall and have half the health of the male models in order to be "fair". Which is also bullshit that hasn't surfaced anywhere except in this thread.

I actually made this years ago for a similar thread. Female silhouettes aren't different enough to fuck with gameplay, especially considering the netcode already helps you make hits..

Also, you could say that it's weird that every man must be 6'6" and all women must be portrayed as 5'2". Just make 'em both 5'9", boom, you have compatible bipeds for your shooter. In Reach and H4, both females and males are 7 feet tall.

Even better, more proof that the accusations of balance issues, etc are trash.

Please stop spreading it.

 

[Carcetti]

It could. Hypothetically, a female player would be smaller, thus they'd probably have a smaller hit box. That gives players an advantage in something that should be purely cosmetic

In games such as Rainbow Six series it hasn't been a problem. Everyone's covered in ballistic body armor and helmets so the difference is pretty much in the face texture and voices.

I mean this is not the worst equality issue in gaming or even near it, but the excuses people invent are totally bogus unless you count the one that they just probably want to save money and effort.

There's been no outrage when people teabag female corpses, multiplayer balance hasn't fallen down in games where female soldiers have been in, etc etc. It's all old news, except DICE doesn't want to roll with the times.

My favorite one is 'but Battlefield never had this before and we were fine'. Okay, let's just roll back all the improvements since BF 1942. No need to add anything to a working formula.

 

[mollipen]

Go look up some of the reactions to the death scenes in Tomb Raider.

Or the reactions to the scene in God of War where Kratos pummels a female nonhuman character.

It saddens me that people think saying this is a legitimate argument. There's a huge difference between the examples you've provided above, and female characters in multiplayer.

It's context. Plenty of game that feature violence have given the option for both male and female characters in multiplayer, and not come under the scrutiny that people are giving as reasons for BF4 not to include female soldiers.

When you think that feminists of whomever else hate ALL violence against women, you're showing that you don't understand the points they're trying to make.

 

[sonicmj1]

Or the reactions to the scene in God of War where Kratos pummels a female nonhuman character.

I'm pretty sure the God of War thing was just about the trophy name. Kratos pummels plenty of females in all his games, and nobody cared about them in particular (though they may have frowned upon the series' love of violence in general).

 

[Anton Sugar]

I am sure the amount of girls who want to play a war game is minuscule.


Are you going to go into things made for women and shout about the lack of inclusion for men? .............. I doubt it.


Seems like another example of seeing something for men and shouting about a lack of inclusion as it seems to be a crime to have things solely for men.

I can see this conversation isn't going to go far with you, but I'd challenge the idea that something needs to be made specifically "for" men or women. Sure, young girls may play My Little Pony games and young boys may play Halo, but it is ignorant to think that certain interests define an entire gender. Women can and DO play Battlefield, CoD, etc., and should have representations of their gender.

It's funny that you think the inclusion of a few character models means they're making these huge concessions in game philosophy and design.

 

[Concept17]

This is disappointing. I enjoy female characters in most games simply because their animations turn out more natural than most male animations.

I hope they change their mind.

 

[SonnyMarrow]

I'm glad to hear this. Halo can get away with it, because they just play female voice sounds with the same model. I hate MP games with different character models (unless it's class based like Team Fortress or something). Everyone should have the same model for balance purposes. Fuck I used to hate people that played as Elites in Halo 2 lol

 

[SolidSnakex]

I'm pretty sure the God of War thing was just about the trophy name. Kratos pummels plenty of females in all his games, and nobody cared about them in particular (though they may have frowned upon the series' love of violence in general).

He's referring to Adam Sessler and Arthur Gies' reviews, both of which seemed to imply that the violence against one character in particular made them feel uncomfortable. Even though the violence against that character was pretty tame compared to the rest of the series. But those are just two people, and I haven't really seen anyone else take issue with the violence in Ascension anymore than we've seen in any past GoW games. It's hyper violent, but it's GoW and that's kind of what you expect if you play them.

 

[Jburton]

I can see this conversation isn't going to go far with you, but I'd challenge the idea that something needs to be made specifically "for" men or women. Sure, young girls may play My Little Pony games and young boys may play Halo, but it is ignorant to think that certain interests define an entire gender. Women can and DO play Battlefield, CoD, etc., and should have representations of their gender.

It's funny that you think the inclusion of a few character models means they're making these huge concessions in game philosophy and design.

I disagree with this need to just change things to make them "compliant".

I believe women should have equal rights in all aspects of life, I just don't think that every little thing needs to be changed because there should not be just things for men and woman.

Men like things just for them and women like things just for them, certain things should be excluded from having agendas shoe horned into them.


There is nothing wrong with things that are targeted at men and things that are targeted at women, not everything needs to be watered down into everybody soup.


Comes across as people looking for something to start a crusade over.

 

[jcm]

I am sure the amount of girls who want to play a war game is minuscule.


Are you going to go into things made for women and shout about the lack of inclusion for men? .............. I doubt it.


Seems like another example of seeing something for men and shouting about a lack of inclusion as it seems to be a crime to have things solely for men.

It saddens me that people think saying this is a legitimate argument. There's a huge difference between the examples you've provided above, and female characters in multiplayer.

It's context. Plenty of game that feature violence have given the option for both male and female characters in multiplayer, and not come under the scrutiny that people are giving as reasons for BF4 not to include female soldiers.

When you think that feminists of whomever else hate ALL violence against women, you're showing that you don't understand the points they're trying to make.

Well said.

 

[VanillaCakeIsBurning]

I disagree with this need to just change things to make them "compliant".

I believe women should have equal rights in all aspects of life, I just don't think that every little thing needs to be changed because there should not be just things for men and woman.

Men like things just for them and women like things just for them, certain things should be excluded from having agendas shoe horned into them.


There is nothing wrong with things that are targeted at men and things that are targeted at women, not everything needs to be watered down into everybody soup.


Comes across as people looking for something to start a crusade over.

I think it says a lot about your argument when you think that adding male/female model select-ability is "watering things down".

Based on all the games my sister plays she must be a man apparently.

 

[SolidSnakex]

I disagree with this need to just change things to make them "compliant".

I believe women should have equal rights in all aspects of life, I just don't think that every little thing needs to be changed because there should not be just things for men and woman.

Men like things just for them and women like things just for them, certain things should be excluded from having agendas shoe horned into them.

Women can now serve in combat situations in the military. Can you think of any reason why that shouldn't be reflected in games? I don't see how that would be shoehorning them into the game.

 

[sonicmj1]

He's referring to Adam Sessler and Arthur Gies' reviews, both of which seemed to imply that the violence against one character in particular made them feel uncomfortable. Even though the violence against that character was pretty tame compared to the rest of the series. But those are just two people, and I haven't really seen anyone else take issue with the violence in Ascension anymore than we've seen in any past GoW games. It's hyper violent, but it's GoW and that's kind of what you expect if you play them.

I don't know exactly what Sessler said, but looking at Arthur's review, it seems like the trophy name pushed something he already was kind of uncomfortable with over the top. Either way, I have a hard time imagining that it was worse than Kratos shoving Poseidon's wife into some gears to keep a door open, when he had like a billion rocks from destroyed statues just lying around. Or, like, any of the violence in God of War 3.

It's basically as you said, though. I don't think the strawman arguments people come up with about imagined feminist outrage do anyone any favors. People aren't up in arms about violence against women in God of War, because they're capable of understanding context. It's the same with violence against women in multiplayer games that also feature men, which should have already been proven when Gears of War 3 let females get curb-stomped and nobody cared.

I disagree with this need to just change things to make them "compliant".

I believe women should have equal rights in all aspects of life, I just don't think that every little thing needs to be changed because there should not be just things for men and woman.

Men like things just for them and women like things just for them, certain things should be excluded from having agendas shoe horned into them.


There is nothing wrong with things that are targeted at men and things that are targeted at women, not everything needs to be watered down into everybody soup.


Comes across as people looking for something to start a crusade over.

How does adding a female character model to a multiplayer game make it "watered down"? If it doesn't inflict any sort of serious technical hurdles, it doesn't change anything.

 

[Kadayi]

This is a problem how?

It's not a problem, it's a question. Maybe with your next post you can answer it.

 

[sleepykyo]

Women can now serve in combat situations in the military. Can you think of any reason why that shouldn't be reflected in games? I don't see how that would be shoehorning them into the game.

The ban on front line combat was lifted 2~3 months ago? If they weren't already setting aside the memory for the female models wouldn't it be understandable if they waited until the next installment for it?

 

[Alucrid]

On one hand they probably could have done it and I imagine most of their reasons are bs.

On the other I don't really care since it's par for the course.

 

[SolidSnakex]

The ban on front line combat was lifted 2~3 months ago? If they weren't already setting aside the memory for the female models wouldn't it be understandable if they waited until the next installment for it?

If BF4 is anything like BF3, then it doesn't even take place in the current year. BF3 was released in 2011 but the campaign took place in 2014. So what's stopping them from being forward thinking? And again, there's clearly a female solider shown in the trailer during the campaign.

 

[Necron]

Games industry is completely lost on the subject of equality.

 

[sleepykyo]

If BF4 is anything like BF3, then it doesn't even take place in the current year. BF3 was released in 2011 but the campaign took place in 2014. So what's stopping them from being forward thinking? And again, there's clearly a female solider shown in the trailer during the campaign.

setting aside the memory

Does a female soldier in the single player automatically mean the mp team set aside memory for female models? Is it that easy to find memory on consoles?

 

[Seanspeed]

EDIT: Nevermind.

 

[charsace]

Modelling, texturing, rigging, animating, collision and hit box mapping and voice talent.

Yeah... Makes sense. It's too much work, plus it creates a balance issue in MP.

This is the issue. People are still mad over Gears3.

 

[I H8 Memes]

You do realize this is a part of the problem, and not an excuse, right?

Outside of including a female skin for multiplayer/single player, what would you change in a Battlefield game to make it more appealing to women?

 

[charsace]

No worries EA, I'll just be over here playing XCOM with my badass female squaddies.

Works easily because its a strategy game. There isn't a game play reason keeping them from having female soldiers.

 

[owlbeak]

Has Battlefield ever included any avatar customization options? I ask because I've only ever played 1943, BF3, and a tiny bit of BC2.

Never ever, it has always just been randomly spawn as whatever skin.

Not completely true. Battlefield 2142 had armor selection for a few classes (Heavy armor/Light armor) that would change the way your character model looked.

 

[Anton Sugar]

Outside of including a female skin for multiplayer/single player, what would you change in a Battlefield game to make it more appealing to women?

That's...pretty much it. I'd rather there be no SP at all, but if there is an SP component, hopefully any women combatants are portrayed as fairly as the men and aren't just there to be saved.

Simply having a representation of your "self"/your nationality or even culture can go a long ways towards enjoyment of a game or product.

 

[sykoex]

In one example of a game that has female combatants, Blacklight Retribution, there are slight differences in the hitbox. But the developer says it still balances out because both the female and male hitbox shapes have disadvantages and advantages and that the difference is ultimately negligible.
http://blacklight-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=2599541&postcount=23

 

[VanillaCakeIsBurning]

This is the issue. People are still mad over Gears3.

Nope.

Simple collision.

 

[Kazerei]

Works easily because its a strategy game. There isn't a game play reason keeping them from having female soldiers.

There's also no gameplay reason keeping them from having female soldiers in BF4

 

[SolidSnakex]

Does a female soldier in the single player automatically mean the mp team set aside memory for female models? Is it that easy to find memory on consoles?

That just shows that they didn't want to include them. So just say that. An interview earlier in this thread shows that they've been asked about female soldiers in Battlefield since at least Bad Company 2, which was released in 2010. They just don't want to include them in multiplayer.

 

[Deified Data]

Just add boobs and long hair to the existing models. I'm sure that will look fine.

Worked for Mass Effect.

 

[Cat Party]

Would like to see the option for a female character but I don't expect it in a military shooter, to be honest. EA is at the forefront on this stuff, so I think it's ridiculous to suggest it has something to do with sexism.

 

[Anton Sugar]

I want to play as the female Omar Little, dammit.

 

[Lime]

Games industry is completely lost on the subject of equality.

Including its consumers.