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[djtiesto]

Pretty funny considering his game looks like a poor ripoff of Super Paper Mario and the guy himself looks like your typical hipster douchebag.

 

[magash]

Japanese games are only poor/bad when you exclude Nintendo games, Handheld games and any other good Japanese game

 

[Jex]

Well, that as a stupid, ignorant and unnecessarily childish thing to say. As we haven't had much of a change to learn anything about him, because he's been working on the game so long, this is a pretty ugly way to get introduced to something of his character.

 

[la flama blanca]

Fuck this turd.

 

[StunandStab]

Fuck this guy. Japanese games are awesome. I much prefer Japanese developed games. Unfortunately there haven't been a lot of them this gen, but the ones that do come out have a much higher ratio of good to bad than Western games do as far as I'm concerned. There are tons of shitty Western games, too.

I hope the rest of the panel saved face after this shit

 

[Numpt3]

Looks like Mr Fish needs to play something other than Final Fantasy.

But seriously, you would think that in his position he would have a little more respect.

 

[Dunan]

A classless response, to be sure, but can someone tell me about the context in which the reference to Japan, and then that question, entered the conversation?

I've translated/interpreted interviews in which Japanese questioners will suddenly make out-of-nowhere requests for the interviewee's thoughts on Japan (Japan-based Disney magazine to an executive: "Even if you've never been to Japan before, what Japanese things do you think you would want to bring back home if you visited, and how do you feel about those things?") as some kind of plea for national validation.

The interviewees are typically smooth enough to not ask why the conversation has suddenly been steered in this direction, and can usually come up with some banalities that satisfy the questioner.

Of course I have no idea if the Japanese reporter did anything like this, but if he did, I might understand Phil's sudden blow-off, even if I think he absolutely did the wrong thing in saying what he said.

 

[dark10x]

its been on decline for awhile now.

He's just saying out loud on a megaphone.

Even Capcom knew its dev sucks and started out sourcing its IP

Is this post from 2007?

Those times have passed, I'm afraid, and virtually every outsourced Capcom project has failed miserably. All of the best Capcom titles this gen were created by their Japanese studios and, going forward, they've already said that they are nearly finished with outsourcing. DmC is one of the last examples of this and it has a lot going against it.

I haven't bought a Japanese game in a while (hence my participation in this thread), but the last Japanese game I remember buying/playing to completion is Devil May Cry 4, and that probably serves as the basis for a lot of my present opinion. When I talk about a PS2-and-prior game design style, I'm talking about how stark it was to play Uncharted a few months prior and then move on to DMC4. To me, Uncharted was a huge leap forward in a smooth, engaging experience whereas DMC4 seemed to make absolutely no new effort outside of what the previous games had done

Then, in 2009, Sega published Bayonetta which absolutely pushed this genre forward in ways that DMC4 did not.

DMC4 was an early generation Japanese title. Where they were 4-5 years ago is very different than where they are today. Games like Binary Domain are demonstrating a dramatic improvement in that it plays every bit as well as a western shooter yet features enough unique hooks and changes that result in a cool new experience.

 

[jet1911]

Just read a couple of pages of the thread but did Fish offered any other commentaries? Did he just said "japanese games sucks" and let the rest of the panel discuss his comment?

 

[jaypah]

Much like Kanye West I don't agree with everything this guy says but I can detach that from the product, which I am interested in. But there were about 38 million ways he could have said that that would have been better. Just from a perspective of respect for your fellow devs. I mean....he had to know that was total douche territory. Oh man, what dumbass. Anyway, he wanted publicity and well here we are.

 

[BocoDragon]

I haven't bought a Japanese game in a while (hence my participation in this thread), but the last Japanese game I remember buying/playing to completion is Devil May Cry 4, and that probably serves as the basis for a lot of my present opinion. When I talk about a PS2-and-prior game design style, I'm talking about how stark it was to play Uncharted a few months prior and then move on to DMC4. To me, Uncharted was a huge leap forward in a smooth, engaging experience whereas DMC4 seemed to make absolutely no new effort outside of what the previous games had done. Each section was its own distinct chunk which graded you and brought you out of the game, the scripted animations and cutscenes and voice acting (as far as memory serves) were all terrible, and I remember being frustrated that I couldn't even compare my scores to my friend's scores (though I may be remembering that wrong). Trials HD is another example of something that blew me away with the progression/comparison meter at the top of the screen, it was a really simple-but-deep game that turned downright addictive with that meter at the top and it was awesome. I don't feel like I've seen that with Japanese games. Not to mention the operating systems on Japanese consoles, the Vita appears to have a horrible UI/UX with none of the seamlessness that one would expect from a device in 2012, and based on Nintendo's comments about a more open online system, it sounds like they're missing the mark again. I hope that helps justify my statements, even if you or others disagree

Edit: Apologies for the stream of consciousness post and lack of formatting or whatever

Devil May Cry 4, the sequel to 3 PS2 games, feels like a PS2 game? Shock!

It's also 5 years old.. Not only was it on the tail of the actual PS2 era, but it really is not a fair benchmark for the current state of Japanese games...

 

[Derrick01]

I agree with the blunt statement in the title but it's just my personal choice. I don't like the style in japanese games anymore.

But what this guy did at an event like this was a pretty assholish thing to do. How about you go into detail on why they suck (and start off by not saying it like that in a professional setting. You're not on a video game forum) since the whole point of the conference is to discuss ideas between developers.

 

[Mael]

But he is indie so his game is obviously better cause it got soul in it.

This shit gotta stop, this is incredibly stupid on so many level it's making my head spin like I'm the actor in a remake of the Exorcist.

Cave Story is an indie game but that doesn't make it have more soul than your commercial game that people poured tons of love and care in it.
It makes it cheaper and that's about it.
Unless you mean that so called soul is a synonym for el cheapo software I'm only seeing people blindingly trying to convince themselves that some stuffs are better than they really are.

 

[Phoenician_Viking]

On consoles i agree. I only bought 2 Japanese games on my PS3, Ninja Gaiden Sigma and Bayonetta. Japanese devs cannot compete with western devs with regard to console games imo.

 

[Zia]

Phil is known for being loud (and often ignorant), however I'm not sure why this is so controversial. Note he wasn't asked what he thought of Call of Duty, or Ubisoft, a company about which he has plenty to say, but that he was asked specifically about Japanese games.

The larger Japanese companies have adopted the draconian, anti-consumer practices of Western publishers like EA and Ubisoft, while providing none of the services and post-release support these reviled giants do. They continue to exploit auteurist works long after their creators have left. They're so focused on iterative design without actually improving upon anything, often moving sideways or backwards (see: Final Fantasy, Resident Evil, etc), which either speaks to a lack of technical prowess or of artistic vision.

I think this could have spurred an interesting conversation, but instead it has sent people into a defensive rage (someone even said they were "hurt" by his statement) which only highlights how much Japanese games are intertwined with a sense of nostalgic identity, in turn validating the opinion that Japan is stuck in the past.

There are obviously many great games coming out of Japan from the likes of Platinum and Nintendo, but they are exceptions, not examples.

 

[Utako]

Hah!

He's right, though. In a sense. My most beloved titles since 2006 have been almost entirely Western, which is a major shift from prior.

But there are plenty of very good games coming from Japan all the time. Simply not the most original or well-executed.

 

[Risk Breaker]

What an ignorant asshole. Possibly racist as well.

 

[survivor]

Just read a couple of pages of the thread but did Fish offered any other commentaries? Did he just said "japanese games sucks" and let the rest of the panel discuss his comment?

He also went on twitter and said the same thing

This shit gotta stop, this is incredibly stupid on so many level it's making my head spin like I'm the actor in a remake of the Exorcist.

Cave Story is an indie game but that doesn't make it have more soul than your commercial game that people poured tons of love and care in it.
It makes it cheaper and that's about it.
Unless you mean that so called soul is a synonym for el cheapo software I'm only seeing people blindingly trying to convince themselves that some stuffs are better than they really are.

You know I was joking right?

 

[kenta]

Devil May Cry 4, the sequel to 3 PS2 games, feels like a PS2 game? Shock!

My problem is that not much appears to have changed since then, either, as far as I have seen. But hey, I was asked for examples so there you go

 

[dramatis]

This is exactly the kind of nonsense that proves once again if needed that events like GDC are completely out of touch and continually give platforms to so-called 'developers' like Fish who have not even finished making their game - what right does he have to hold court on game design and call out an entire country for heavens sake when he hasn't even published Fez yet?

It disappoints and depresses me that events like this elevate no-mark 'indie developers' to the same level as the established names in the industry - people like Kojima, Meier, Mikami and even Molyneux have all made classic games and contributed hugely to the sphere of game design - they are the kind of people who should be speaking at events like GDC, indie hipsters like Fish shouldn't even be allowed in.

I am not remotely interested in Fez and have always been amazed at the way it's been feted as some minor classic even though no-one has played it and it's being made by someone who as far as I can tell has no proven track record.

If the game bombs because of this (and also because of his silly attitude to PC gamers) then I for one will find it hilarious.

Why shouldn't an "indie hipster" be able to participate? I don't agree with his statement, but I don't think that GDC should just have big name, big name, big name. The problem has less to do with the various standings of developers and more to do with one person answering a question in a rude and unsubstantiated way.

 

[7threst]

Japan centric games have no appeal to me whatsoever so I'm with this guy.

You don't think he was an asshole because of the way he said it without any examples of why he said it?

I'm really surprised that people feel they have to side with this guy just because they don't like Japanese games. Is it so much to ask to be respectful towards something even if it isn't your thing? He was on a panel with an audience that seemed to like him. A Japanese developer asked him a question, and this guy immediatley says "your games just suck", in front of an audience. Not only is it a stupid thing to say if you don't back it up (which he didn't), it's also hurting the guy who asked the question. He is being made a fool of in front of an audience. Then you watch this guy's twitter and he goes on and on. This guy is an asshole and nobody should side with him, whether you like Japanese developed games or not.

 

[MuddyDonut]

I played one Japanese developed game this gen and feel the need to present my generalization on Japanese games in general, not having played any of them.

but its my opinion guise so its guu

 

[Tallshortman]

Good thing a man with the maturity of a 12 year old is one of the faces of indie game development in that movie.

 

[Kacho]

My problem is that not much appears to have changed since then, either, as far as I have seen. But hey, I was asked for examples so there you go

You should give Bayonetta a spin.

 

[Mael]

You know I was joking right?

I know but that's my pet peeve of the day.

 

[Neuromancer]

Wow really uncalled for. Feel bad for the Japanese gentleman.

 

[njean777]

I haven't bought a Japanese game in a while (hence my participation in this thread), but the last Japanese game I remember buying/playing to completion is Devil May Cry 4, and that probably serves as the basis for a lot of my present opinion. When I talk about a PS2-and-prior game design style, I'm talking about how stark it was to play Uncharted a few months prior and then move on to DMC4. To me, Uncharted was a huge leap forward in a smooth, engaging experience whereas DMC4 seemed to make absolutely no new effort outside of what the previous games had done. Each section was its own distinct chunk which graded you and brought you out of the game, the scripted animations and cutscenes and voice acting (as far as memory serves) were all terrible, and I remember being frustrated that I couldn't even compare my scores to my friend's scores (though I may be remembering that wrong). Trials HD is another example of something that blew me away with the progression/comparison meter at the top of the screen, it was a really simple-but-deep game that turned downright addictive with that meter at the top and it was awesome. I don't feel like I've seen that with Japanese games. Not to mention the operating systems on Japanese consoles, the Vita appears to have a horrible UI/UX with none of the seamlessness that one would expect from a device in 2012, and based on Nintendo's comments about a more open online system, it sounds like they're missing the mark again. I hope that helps justify my statements, even if you or others disagree

Edit: Apologies for the stream of consciousness post and lack of formatting or whatever

Until you play with a Vita, do not comment on it. You have no experience with it, so you can not judge it. Nintendo I will agree with, they really seem to drop the ball when it comes to online. But that does not change the fact that they still make some of the best games to date. What I am trying to say is do not judge something unless you have experience in said subject you are judging.

 

[Phonomezer]

Why is he correct? He never bothered to explain himself, and neither did you for that matter. He just made this broad statement about the state of Japan's games.

I said somewhat correct. He has a point, I will reserve judgement until I can hear his delivery because I think just reading it makes him sound coarser than intended.

Personally, a lot of Japanese developers dropped the ball this generation.

In reality, a lot of Japanese developers dropped the ball this generation.

Two of my most anticipated games this year are from Japanese developers (Dragon's Dogma and Crimson Dragon), but I can't help but feel that a lot of Japanese software companies really failed to live up to expectations.

I also feel like I've outgrown a lot of Japanese output, yet Japanese design aesthetics appeal to me infinitely more than those from the west, while gameplay, world building and writing from Western studios has been, give or take, a lot more engaging and a lot more sophisticated.

I just think Japanese developers need more time to find their feet again, a lot of the "Japan's output sucks!" comes from more from public perception more than anything else.

It'd be nice that for every FFXIII, we got a Bayonetta.

 

[kenta]

I played one Japanese developed game this gen and feel the need to present my generalization on Japanese games in general, not having played any of them.

but its my opinion guise so its guu

You're right, there was Gran Turismo 5 Prologue as well. Should I go into that as well? I think that speaks for itself, actually

Until you play with a Vita do not comment on it. You have no experience with it so you can not judge it. Nintendo I will agree with, they really seem to drop the ball when it comes to online. But that does not change the fact that they still make some of the best games to date. What I am trying to say is DO NOT JUDGE UNTIL YOU HAVE A LOT MORE EXPERIENCE WITH SAID SUBJECT YOU ARE JUDING.

I played with a Vita at GameStop and watched Giant Bomb's multi-hour Vita stream. I think it looks terrible. Am I qualified to scream and shout back to you now?

 

[MuddyDonut]

You're right, there was Gran Turismo 5 Prologue as well. Should I go into that as well? I think that speaks for itself, actually

Well you haven't said anything so go for it.

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

This is actually a great point, too. People who have been following this issue by actually looking at the nuances of development (instead of just making some kind of ignorant brush-off for a country's entire output) have noticed that most major Japanese studios have made huge strides in learning these lessons. Middleware, agile development, multiplayer focus, multiplatform releases, etc. have all been picking up steam pretty aggressively amongst Japanese studios and we should see even more success stories in the next few years.

Yes, but we're at the brink of yet another (big?) jump. It remains to be seen whether the momentum they have at the moment carries over.

To be clear, I'm not just talking about the tech race, I'm sure the next generation will bring yet another paradigm shift in how games are designed (more social, more customizable, even more focus on multiplayer etc).

 

[Riposte]

Let's try this conversation over again, yeah?

To me, Uncharted was a huge leap forward in a smooth, engaging experience

1) Put story / atmosphere over mechanics
2) Are painfully easy, easy to break
3) Have QTEs and QTE-like sequences out the ass
4) Have DLC

Hmmm. The more Uncharted games we speak of (because UC1 is "dated" now) the more true this becomes.

 

[Mael]

Why shouldn't an "indie hipster" be able to participate? I don't agree with his statement, but I don't think that GDC should just have big name, big name, big name. The problem has less to do with the various standings of developers and more to do with one person answering a question in a rude and unsubstantiated way.

Are you seriously ok with a big conference on say 3D effects gives a big panel of questions to some guy who have a little indie project not even finished or even nearly finished and have done nothing else in the field?

 

[dark10x]

You're right, there was Gran Turismo 5 Prologue as well. Should I go into that as well? I think that speaks for itself, actually

So the only releases you're discussing are nearly 5 years old a piece? More time has passed between now and DMC4 than the entire lifespan of the XBOX.

Times have changed and judging the industry based on some games from a few years ago does not make for an informed opinion.

 

[TheSeks]

You're right, there was Gran Turismo 5 Prologue as well. Should I go into that as well? I think that speaks for itself, actually

I played two Japanese developed game this gen and feel the need to present my generalization on Japanese games in general, not having played any of them.

but its my opinion guise so its guu

Fixed. Better for you now?

How about you play more than two games (one of which was a "beta" demo) before forming a whole generalization of a country for a generation? People have given some gems (Bayo, Vanquish, De/Da Souls...) for you to look at. But no, let's go with "previous gen gameplay!" comments when Uncharted is a Gears clone that isn't nearly as polished.

 

[Orayn]

What a jackass. It would be reasonable for him to explain why he didn't like the design philosophy of some Japanese games, but what he said was a ridiculous blanket statement and he should have known better.

 

[erpg]

Let's try this conversation over again, yeah?





Hmmm. The more Uncharted games we speak of (because UC1 is "dated" now) the more true this becomes.

I don't even know what you're going for here. Listing what's wrong with Namco?

 

[Derrick01]

What an ignorant asshole. Possibly racist as well.

Let's put a stop to that unless we have more information. I can't stand most japanese games either but that has nothing to do with the japanese people. Nothing good comes from just throwing nasty titles like that around with no real proof.

I should note that I'm not defending the way he said what he said. It was again a really dickish and unnecessary thing to say at a professional event.

 

[watership]

Is there video or audio of it?

Can we get this? Or other on-site reports? I don't like that this is one report is the source that has sparked this huge debate. This could be blown out of proportion or it's not enough outage.

Either way, We need more info.

 

[kenta]

Well you haven't said anything so go for it.

Well in the same vein as the contrast between Uncharted and DMC4 that I mentioned earlier, Burnout Paradise was also a hugely stark comparison to Gran Turismo 5 Prologue. Different types of games, I know, but once again I'm talking about the ambition to do something that was fresh versus the desire to do the same exact thing that had been done over and over and over in the previous generation

Edit: Forgot about Demon's Souls, that is the exception to my wailing. I had to force myself to put that down, felt myself getting too sucked into it. We need more games like that coming from Japan

 

[dark10x]

But no, let's go with "previous gen gameplay!" comments when Uncharted is a Gears clone that isn't nearly as polished.

Uhh, a different topic, but I beg to differ. Uncharted 2 and 3 are as polished if not more so than any of the Gears titles.

Well in the same vein as the contrast between Uncharted and DMC4 that I mentioned earlier, Burnout Paradise was also a hugely stark comparison to Gran Turismo 5 Prologue. Different types of games, I know, but once again I'm talking about the ambition to do something that was fresh versus the desire to do the same exact thing that had been done over and over and over in the previous generation

Why are you still talking about 5 year old games?

 

[survivor]

Why shouldn't an "indie hipster" be able to participate? I don't agree with his statement, but I don't think that GDC should just have big name, big name, big name. The problem has less to do with the various standings of developers and more to do with one person answering a question in a rude and unsubstantiated way.

I think the bare minimum for participants is developers who have finished their games. That's not really much to ask.

 

[njean777]

You're right, there was Gran Turismo 5 Prologue as well. Should I go into that as well? I think that speaks for itself, actually

I played with a Vita at GameStop and watched Giant Bomb's multi-hour Vita stream. I think it looks terrible. Am I qualified to scream and shout back to you now?

Nope, playing with for 10 minutes and watching are different from owning and using on a daily basis. There is a reason most tech review sites review phones/devices after about 2 weeks of usage.

 

[Hale-XF11]

Pretty funny considering his game looks like a poor ripoff of Super Paper Mario and the guy himself looks like your typical hipster douchebag.

Took the words right out of my mouth. I saw the picture of him and it all clicked.

 

[BocoDragon]

My problem is that not much appears to have changed since then, either, as far as I have seen. But hey, I was asked for examples so there you go

I see a kernel of truth in your post: they still do a few older game styles, and it's a damn good thing they do. People still want character action games (ie Bayonetta and El Shaddai). They still want Shmups (ie Cave games). They still want jRPGs. If those are "PS2 style" and that's wrong, then I don't want to be right.

But they also do current gen popular genres like Vanquish and Shadows of the Damned, TPS with a uniquely Japanese style. Not that TPS is actually western, either (Gears of War was inspired by Resident Evil 4).

 

[jett]

What can you say to this guy besides calling him a total dick. It's sad that people actually cheered for that comment.

 

[Mael]

Well in the same vein as the contrast between Uncharted and DMC4 that I mentioned earlier, Burnout Paradise was also a hugely stark comparison to Gran Turismo 5 Prologue. Different types of games, I know, but once again I'm talking about the ambition to do something that was fresh versus the desire to do the same exact thing that had been done over and over and over in the previous generation

Why are you comparing a glorified demo to a full product?
Should I compare Dark Souls to a demo of Mass Effect and claim that western rpg sucks?

 

[Orayn]

Well in the same vein as the contrast between Uncharted and DMC4 that I mentioned earlier, Burnout Paradise was also a hugely stark comparison to Gran Turismo 5 Prologue. Different types of games, I know, but once again I'm talking about the ambition to do something that was fresh versus the desire to do the same exact thing that had been done over and over and over in the previous generation

Hey, guess what? Demon's Souls.

 

[sublimit]

Japanese games are only poor/bad when you exclude Nintendo games, Handheld games and any other good Japanese game

 

[Y2Kev]

Nobody cares about the first thing. A bunch of people care about the second thing, because it's overly broad, displays a lack of knowledge, and is full of (sometimes kind of goofy) assumptions. If what you mean is "Japan doesn't make very many open-world games or broshooters!" then, well... that's definitely true, but it's a pretty silly complaint! If what you mean is that Japanese devs were slow to pick up on multiplayer it's an accurate complaint for the generation as a whole but not one that I think applies much just at the moment. If you mean that Japanese games don't have appeal to Western gamers anymore that's true... except for all those exceptions like Nintendo's stuff, or Dark Souls, or Street Fighter IV, or (etc. etc.)

As a very general rule, unless you can back it up with examples and explain with knowledge why the obvious exceptions are outliers, almost any kind of "genre X sucks now" or "region Y is bad at development" or whatever sort of generalization is going to wind up inaccurate and come off kind of ignorant. A great deal of the recent trend of criticizing Japanese development has had exactly this problem.

They can do "western games" really well too now. Binary domain is quite impressive for team nagoshi.