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Fez's dev to japanese developers: "your games just suck"

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I'm not into Jap games this gen, they've disappointed me overall. And I can understand how another person feels that way. But, there's such a thing as professionalism. You don't talk shit about your peers publicly, to do so is reprehensible. What an idiot.
 
KTallguy said:
The continual streamlining of MMOs in the west, like WoW, shows that players prefer to go through the content faster. If you've played mmos like Lineage (or even newer Korean MMOs), the grind is much much harder, but the target market is accepting of that. The Old Republic also is about unique story content more than grinding, as far as I know (and I don't know much about TOR, honestly).
Click to expand...

The better example of Western grinding is the riotous popularity of Call of Duty's multiplayer and everyone and their grandma implementing the same systems add it uses.
 
Kaijima said:
Sometimes I get the impression that when westerners say "western games are FRESH DAWG not like old moldy Japanese crap" they're mainly impressed by presentation. Western games have become synonymous with vast budgets and hollywood productions, decide to wow people with slick presentation and movie-like visual experience.

But if you tear games down to their component parts, and get into design, it's not so easy. The biggest western franchises, like Elder Scrolls, are still basically the same thing as Morrowind from 8 years ago; just with better graphics and as some hardcore players would say, even dumbed down. Stuff like Uncharted is basically a third person shooter / traversal game that happens to have amazing graphics and streaming presentation.

Western games also focus heavily these days on "PUSH A TO AWESOME". That is, making sure the player is floating in a smooth, edge-free environment that rewards every interaction with something awesome, so as not to scare away or bore what is actually a targeted audience of very casual 20-somethings. Guys who get pissed off if the game fights back and makes them lose.

It's a very dicey thing to try and get on a high horse and chortle about how western games are made of infinite awesome and Japanese games are poopysticks. Because there's a lot of trends in western games that are not good from a real game designer's perspective, and from the perspective of hardcore gamers. But western games are merely very, very good at appealing to the sensibilities of casual western gamers this generation.

But does being good at appealing to sensibilities of one audience mean they're objectively "better"? Is chocolate ice cream superior to strawberry just because it's marketed to people who like chocolate? That's subjective.

The truly innovative western games this gen, I would venture, are as rare as truly innovative Japanese games. They exist in equally rare quantities. The main difference between East and West the last five years is that western developers were better (and better funded) at Dat Gloss.

But is surface gloss really the only barometer of how good games are?
Click to expand...

Kaijima, why are your posts always so... Right about everything? You're giving me an inferiority complex here!
 
Well, you can pretty much guarantee now that "The Internet" is angered by his statements, the gaming press is going to defend Phil tooth and nail and mock everyone who "cares so much."
 
snoopeasystreet said:
are people really getting this butt hurt because a dude on the internet doesn't think Japanese games are great? come on lads, its not like he's a holocaust denier or anything even close.
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There are many, many ways to answer the question, stay true to your values and not be a giant douche about it though. Such as"thanks for the interesting question, I guess those games were an inspiration to me as a kid, but I think the innovation and gameplay has been a little lost in recent times" for example.
 
Pretentious vaporware developer derides Japanese games.

I remember when Fez was first announced. I fought for the North against the Confederates.
 
People saying they won't buy Fez now, just buy the game

It looks fantastic, and if you stopped buying things just because the people who made them are acting like wankers then your world would fall apart in like a week

Kanye West told a teenage girl live on TV her music wasn't deserving of the award she'd just won and everyone still buys his stuff

(This is probably a wonky metaphor but I don't really get why one's opinions on creative types affects their buying decision)
 
snoopeasystreet said:
GAF does this all the time. Not just to japanese developers though.
Click to expand...
People on GAF are not speaking in a position were there is some expectation of professionalism and courtesy. (Well, there is some expectation of courtesy, that's why we have mods. Actually, I wonder how long you would be around if you made a thread that simply states that all japanese games suck without any kind of reasoning or deeper thought)

Green Scar said:
It looks fantastic, and if you stopped buying things just because the people who made them are acting like wankers then your world would fall apart in like a week
Click to expand...
It's working out pretty well for me so far. Entertainment products are a luxury, so as a customer you also have the luxury of applying standards that may seem arbitrary.

Green Scar said:
Kanye West told a teenage girl live on TV her music wasn't deserving of the award she'd just won and everyone still buys his stuff
Click to expand...
I have no idea who that person is.
 
Durante said:
People aren't "butt hurt" because of his taste, people are calling him out for acting like an ass.
Click to expand...

Exactly this. Its embarrassing that someone can make such brazenly xenophobic comments publically and not expect to be roundly condemned.

Its just classless.
 
Even though I always thought FEZ looked pretty cool, I might just skip it altogether now. It's comments like this that make me wants the game to fail miserably.
 
Green Scar said:
People saying they won't buy Fez now, just buy the game

It looks fantastic, and if you stopped buying things just because the people who made them are acting like wankers then your world would fall apart in like a week

Kanye West told a teenage girl live on TV her music wasn't deserving of the award she'd just won and everyone still buys his stuff

(This is probably a wonky metaphor but I don't really get why one's opinions on creative types affects their buying decision)
Click to expand...
Nah, not gonna buy it.
 
Green Scar said:
People saying they won't buy Fez now, just buy the game

It looks fantastic, and if you stopped buying things just because the people who made them are acting like wankers then your world would fall apart in like a week

Kanye West told a teenage girl live on TV her music wasn't deserving of the award she'd just won and everyone still buys his stuff

(This is probably a wonky metaphor but I don't really get why one's opinions on creative types affects their buying decision)
Click to expand...
I don't listen to Kanye.
 
Green Scar said:
People saying they won't buy Fez now, just buy the game

It looks fantastic, and if you stopped buying things just because the people who made them are acting like wankers then your world would fall apart in like a week

Kanye West told a teenage girl live on TV her music wasn't deserving of the award she'd just won and everyone still buys his stuff

(This is probably a wonky metaphor but I don't really get why one's opinions on creative types affects their buying decision)
Click to expand...

It's their money, so their decision trumps all.
 
Kaijima said:
Sometimes I get the impression that when westerners say "western games are FRESH DAWG not like old moldy Japanese crap" they're mainly impressed by presentation. Western games have become synonymous with vast budgets and hollywood productions, decide to wow people with slick presentation and movie-like visual experience.

But if you tear games down to their component parts, and get into design, it's not so easy. The biggest western franchises, like Elder Scrolls, are still basically the same thing as Morrowind from 8 years ago; just with better graphics and as some hardcore players would say, even dumbed down. Stuff like Uncharted is basically a third person shooter / traversal game that happens to have amazing graphics and streaming presentation.

Western games also focus heavily these days on "PUSH A TO AWESOME". That is, making sure the player is floating in a smooth, edge-free environment that rewards every interaction with something awesome, so as not to scare away or bore what is actually a targeted audience of very casual 20-somethings. Guys who get pissed off if the game fights back and makes them lose.

It's a very dicey thing to try and get on a high horse and chortle about how western games are made of infinite awesome and Japanese games are poopysticks. Because there's a lot of trends in western games that are not good from a real game designer's perspective, and from the perspective of hardcore gamers. But western games are merely very, very good at appealing to the sensibilities of casual western gamers this generation.

But does being good at appealing to sensibilities of one audience mean they're objectively "better"? Is chocolate ice cream superior to strawberry just because it's marketed to people who like chocolate? That's subjective.

The truly innovative western games this gen, I would venture, are as rare as truly innovative Japanese games. They exist in equally rare quantities. The main difference between East and West the last five years is that western developers were better (and better funded) at Dat Gloss.

But is surface gloss really the only barometer of how good games are?
Click to expand...

Uncharted 2 (the only one I played) is the best example, at it's core it's a pretty linear good shooter with horrible scripted plataforming game, but it's incredible well paced and spectacular varied ride with some top-notch production values, I enjoyed a lot the game, but strip down those and you have at best a decent game.
 
DaBuddaDa said:
Well, you can pretty much guarantee now that "The Internet" is angered by his statements, the gaming press is going to defend Phil tooth and nail and mock everyone who "cares so much."
Click to expand...

do you mean

1100088-ryan_finger_super.jpg
 
Green Scar said:
People saying they won't buy Fez now, just buy the game

It looks fantastic, and if you stopped buying things just because the people who made them are acting like wankers then your world would fall apart in like a week

Kanye West told a teenage girl live on TV her music wasn't deserving of the award she'd just won and everyone still buys his stuff

(This is probably a wonky metaphor but I don't really get why one's opinions on creative types affects their buying decision)
Click to expand...

Fuck Kanye and fuck this hipster douche.
 
LiK said:
Nah, not gonna buy it.
Click to expand...

OK, fair enough, but I always go through that thought process and end up shrugging. I wish he was a better person, nay, I demand he sorts his act out, but I also want to buy his stuff. I'd rather his attitude not get in the way of that, ya know?

(That wasn't supposed to come across as me being demanding, god knows I can't tell you guys what to do and nor would I want to :lol)
 
I've known about Fez for awhile now. The dev is a jerk. There is a way to tell him your opinion without being so curt.

He could have easily said, "Well, the Japanese market right now is very different from N.A. I really haven't played that many J games - but I think the market could use a bit of re-invigoration to really capture the western/world audience it once had"

There's no reason to call out this Japanese developer (and his country) in front of the audience like that. I mean really? Does he have a bone to pick or something? Or is he just socially awkward.

It's really making me rethink should I contribute to this mans ego, even if I've been waiting for a long time to play this game...
 
Wow. I don't care much about the ignorance behind such a comment, but the context makes it extremely disrespectful and assholish. It's disappointing, but honestly not entirely unexpected, to hear about other people even cheering it.
 
Kaijima said:
Sometimes I get the impression that when westerners say "western games are FRESH DAWG not like old moldy Japanese crap" they're mainly impressed by presentation. Western games have become synonymous with vast budgets and hollywood productions, decide to wow people with slick presentation and movie-like visual experience.

But if you tear games down to their component parts, and get into design, it's not so easy. The biggest western franchises, like Elder Scrolls, are still basically the same thing as Morrowind from 8 years ago; just with better graphics and as some hardcore players would say, even dumbed down. Stuff like Uncharted is basically a third person shooter / traversal game that happens to have amazing graphics and streaming presentation.

Western games also focus heavily these days on "PUSH A TO AWESOME". That is, making sure the player is floating in a smooth, edge-free environment that rewards every interaction with something awesome, so as not to scare away or bore what is actually a targeted audience of very casual 20-somethings. Guys who get pissed off if the game fights back and makes them lose.

It's a very dicey thing to try and get on a high horse and chortle about how western games are made of infinite awesome and Japanese games are poopysticks. Because there's a lot of trends in western games that are not good from a real game designer's perspective, and from the perspective of hardcore gamers. But western games are merely very, very good at appealing to the sensibilities of casual western gamers this generation.

But does being good at appealing to sensibilities of one audience mean they're objectively "better"? Is chocolate ice cream superior to strawberry just because it's marketed to people who like chocolate? That's subjective.

The truly innovative western games this gen, I would venture, are as rare as truly innovative Japanese games. They exist in equally rare quantities. The main difference between East and West the last five years is that western developers were better (and better funded) at Dat Gloss.

But is surface gloss really the only barometer of how good games are?
Click to expand...

This is about as good as I have seen anyone spell this issue out. Bravo.
 
Green Scar said:
People saying they won't buy Fez now, just buy the game

It looks fantastic, and if you stopped buying things just because the people who made them are acting like wankers then your world would fall apart in like a week

Kanye West told a teenage girl live on TV her music wasn't deserving of the award she'd just won and everyone still buys his stuff

(This is probably a wonky metaphor but I don't really get why one's opinions on creative types affects their buying decision)
Click to expand...

I'd never even heard a Kanye song until Saints Row the Third.
 
and yet......

from software is better at making a WRPGs than the west

platinum games made gears and uncharted look like a child's TPS

Journey is about to shit all over Fez
 
Kanye is great.

This guy doesn't seem to be!

Deciding not to buy Fez simply because you're offended by his lack of professionalism seems dumb. Deciding not to buy Fez because you think these comments expose the poor taste of one of the game's few developers, on the other hand, makes a little bit more sense.
 
I like to complain about Japanese games on here a lot but that's typically not related to mechanical issues(although Jap games do sometimes have a tendency to pad length and disrespect the player's time). The main issue I have with modern Japenese games is character writing and design. A lot of them are pretty interesting mechanically.
 
Green Scar said:
People saying they won't buy Fez now, just buy the game
Click to expand...

Nah. Doesn't work this way. Indie games rely on word of mouth, on other people promiting them for free. When you exploit such good will you have to brace that it will turn ugly if you act like an asshole.
 
Green Scar said:
People saying they won't buy Fez now, just buy the game

It looks fantastic, and if you stopped buying things just because the people who made them are acting like wankers then your world would fall apart in like a week

Kanye West told a teenage girl live on TV her music wasn't deserving of the award she'd just won and everyone still buys his stuff

(This is probably a wonky metaphor but I don't really get why one's opinions on creative types affects their buying decision)
Click to expand...

Nope. Not buying. It's not always easy to avoid giving money to complete assholes, but I'll live without having yet another indie platformer. There are plenty of non-asshole indie devs releasing great games all the time; I don't have to line this douchebag's pockets.
 
Green Scar said:
People saying they won't buy Fez now, just buy the game

It looks fantastic, and if you stopped buying things just because the people who made them are acting like wankers then your world would fall apart in like a week

Kanye West told a teenage girl live on TV her music wasn't deserving of the award she'd just won and everyone still buys his stuff

(This is probably a wonky metaphor but I don't really get why one's opinions on creative types affects their buying decision)
Click to expand...

No. I will not support a ignorant buffoon.
 
Orayn said:
They suffer from teenage RPG fans in the same way we suffer from FPS-loving dudebros. Two sides of the same rehash coin.
Click to expand...

Not really. You could easily use this argument when the arcade shooters were in their highest point (UT2004, Q3, etc). These were brainless shooters that were focused on the multiplayer.

The appeal remained the same, but the players wanted something more in terms of storytelling, mechanics, etc. Yes, the western games are filled with guns and bam-bum stuff, but the rest is pretty good as well. There's a bunch of examples out there (Uncharted 2, I'm looking at you) that appeal to broader audiences without being so embarrassing and local that you have to enter their culture, absorb it in order to play.

And there are these wonderful neutral games that come from time to time, just like Minecraft. Again, Japanese developers are not getting it, their local audience changed for worse and the western players do not identify themselves with it.
 
Good for him for calling a spade a spade.

Indie developers are actually trying to do unique things in game development.Japanese games are basically the dumb blockbuster of the game's industry. On a whole, they deserve this criticism.

The best Japanese games are the ones that kind of embrace the dumb spectacle and obtuse design descisions, but that doesn't mean they are great games, exactly. More like they are amusing circus performances.

Japanese designers are like shitty 80's big hair and butt rock music. Their idea of game design is being as loud, obnoxious and shallow as possible. There are only a few exceptions such as the stuff by Miyamoto, Genova Chen, and Fumito Ueda. Most everybody else in Japan is trying to be as butt rock as possible. Some of them try to be ironic butt rock (Kojima and Suda 51), but it is butt rock nonetheless.
 
Silly thing to do but on the whole he's not exactly wrong.

The days of Japanese video games dominating the global landscape and setting the benchmark for others to follow are looooooooong gone.

Yeah there are exceptions to the rule like Vanquish, but yeah they do mostly suck.
 
Orayn said:
Kaijima, why are your posts always so... Right about everything? You're giving me an inferiority complex here!
Click to expand...

Heh yeah. I see the avatar, then the wall of text, and go "ooh another awesome Kaijima post to read and swoon over~"
 
EternalGamer said:
Good for him.

Indie developers are actually trying to do unique things in game development.

Japanese games are basically the dumb blockbuster of the game's industry. On a whole, they deserve this criticism.

The best Japanese games are the ones that kind of embrace the dumb spectacle and obtuse design descisions, but that doesn't mean they are great games, exactly. More like they are amusing circus performances.

Japanese designers are like shitty 80's big hair and but rock music. Their idea of game design is being as loud, obnoxious and shallow as possible.
Click to expand...

you do realize that these things aren't movies, right?
 
EternalGamer said:
Good for him.

Indie developers are actually trying to do unique things in game development.

Japanese games are basically the dumb blockbuster of the game's industry. On a whole, they deserve this criticism.

The best Japanese games are the ones that kind of embrace the dumb spectacle and obtuse design descisions, but that doesn't mean they are great games, exactly. More like they are amusing circus performances.

Japanese designers are like shitty 80's big hair and but rock music. Their idea of game design is being as loud, obnoxious and shallow as possible.
Click to expand...

Another post from someone who doesn't know what games are actually Japanese.
 
Tunin said:
Not really. You could easily use this argument when the arcade shooters were in their highest point (UT2004, Q3, etc). These were brainless shooters that were focused on the multiplayer.

The appeal remained the same, but the players wanted something more in terms of storytelling, mechanics, etc. Yes, the western games are filled with guns and bam-bum stuff, but the rest is pretty good as well. There's a bunch of examples out there (Uncharted 2, I'm looking at you) that appeal to broader audiences without being so embarrassing and local that you have to enter their culture, absorb it in order to play.

And there are these wonderful neutral games that come from time to time, just like Minecraft. Again, Japanese developers are not getting it, their local audience changed for worse and the western players do not identify themselves with it.
Click to expand...

You seem to have a limited understanding of what the brain actually does and thus believe Quake and UT are brainless. In actuality it takes more brain (and nerves) to play those brainless shooters at a competent level than it does Uncharted (including multiplayer).
 
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