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Fez's dev to japanese developers: "your games just suck"
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Crash Station
Member
This can't be helping the reputation of indie devs.
he insulted someone to their face, in front of a crowd of their peers. That's a big difference to me, but I do appreciate the idea that both actions are assholish.
I believe this is more of an issue with Nintendo (and their broad audience) than Japanese games at large.
If anything, Western games of the past decade have been far more guilty of flooding the player with tutorials rather than letting the games speak for themselves.
Tutorials and hand holding are more common than ever in all territories.
A sandwich, like 10 minutes ago. I finished it, and ate it.
joking. ¯\_(ツ
_/¯
_/¯That was a dick way of treating the Japanese dev.
But I do think Japanese games are stale (read JRPGs). Seems like the same formula has been used for 20+ years now.
New Western games coming out are ambitious and epic. They're so epic that they're filled with epic bugs (Twisted Metal, Gotham City Impostors, Mass Effect 3) and epic performance issues (Skyrim) and epic long waits for corresponding fixes (Twisted Metal, Gotham City Impostors, Skyrim)...
Ugh, what has become of my beloved industry?! It's either "epic and amibitious and unplayable" OR "stale but with astounding stability and quality".
But I do think Japanese games are stale (read JRPGs). Seems like the same formula has been used for 20+ years now.
New Western games coming out are ambitious and epic. They're so epic that they're filled with epic bugs (Twisted Metal, Gotham City Impostors, Mass Effect 3) and epic performance issues (Skyrim) and epic long waits for corresponding fixes (Twisted Metal, Gotham City Impostors, Skyrim)...
Ugh, what has become of my beloved industry?! It's either "epic and amibitious and unplayable" OR "stale but with astounding stability and quality".
Liquidsnake
Banned
I was raised to love Japanese made games. Now I have a total disconnect with them. The west has overtaken them for this entire Gen.
I disagree, when you're explaining semantics like that, you're not being effective at making the point, which I do see, but this to me is racism. If it was said to a Japanese friend of mine in a publicly humiliating way, I would be ready to go.
McBradders
NeoGAF: my new HOME
Fuck me I never thought I would see some of NeoGAF stoop to agreeing with what is a totally 100% horseshit statement.
I mean, really? Really?
I mean, really? Really?
I don't know why they bother with singleplayer for COD games when everyone buys it for the multiplayer, anyway.
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
Anything prefaced with "western games" or "eastern games" is probably going to be a giant sweeping generalization. Those terms have to be qualified.
outunderthestars
Banned
I have to admit that this generation less than 5% of the games I have really loved have been from a Japanese developer.
That said, there is no reason to be so overtly rude to another professional in your field, let alone in a public forum.
That said, there is no reason to be so overtly rude to another professional in your field, let alone in a public forum.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Agree x100.
Skyward Sword has handholding problems, and these are Nintendo problems, not Japanese problems. It's a separate issue.
The_Darkest_Red
Member
I don't really understand this. I mean, I get that some people have an issue with the amount of hand-holding in modern Zelda games but to act like this is a Japan-centric issue seems very biased to me. Have these guys played an FPS or cover-based TPS lately? The amount of "must make sure you know exactly what to do at all times" in almost all of those games is considerably worse than anything in SS (not to mention the vast majority of other games developed in Japan). My point is that I think this is a trend in the gaming industry as a whole and it isn't exclusive to one region or another.Ok well first I'd like to mention that when making this post this is not an endorsement of what Phil said. It was a pretty terrible thing to say and turning around to see the guy's face at the mic made me feel bad inside. I recall his question was about what the panelists thought about Japanese games today and maybe he thought the answer would've been more inviting given the posters that were up in that one bedroom during the movie
Now I haven't really seen any mention of what the criticisms were up to page 5 and from page 13 onward so maybe someone mentioned this but unfortunately nobody's talking about it so I'll butt in a little. I don't remember word for word what is said but this current discussion kind of stinks so whatever.
One of Phil and Jonothan's problems with modern Japanese games (at least what was said during panel) was the amount of hand holding that goes on in them. Fish cited Zelda as an example; LoZ dropped you into a world without any instruction on what to do, you went ahead and figured out how to do things on your own, bombable walls were actual secrets, etc. So basically LoZ had a sense of discovery to it that he really valued. But Skyward Sword doesn't have that; bombable walls are really obvious because there's this crack in the wall, tutorials are too long, the game often interrupts you and makes sure to list out, step by step, what you're supposed to do next, then reconfirm you got it right after you finished or whatever.
Again, this doesn't seem like an issue exclusive to Japan developed games to me at all. As Kajima wonderfully articulated earlier in this thread, production values and polish are focused on heavily in most big-budget western games these days.
If these are the only ideas they used to demonstrate their points then I can't help but feel that they didn't do a particularly good job of it.
Mr. B Natural
Member
I'm all for more criticism in this industry, it needs it and it needs lots of it, but just calling out like a bad internet troll isn't exactly what is needed here and will most likely make matters worse.
EternalGamer
Banned
Definitely possible that from a technical perspective each of their games is a huge innovative leap. But that isn't really related to the final user experience. I played Oblivion until I got 1000/1000 achievements. I played Skyrim for about 20 hours and all I really did was play an improved version of Oblivion.
It tripped mine but I figured I was just blowing that particular aspect of it out of proportion given how much his behavior in general irritated me.
Jasper Avenue
Member
Instead of buying this, I'll buy an extra copy of Lollipop Chainsaw.
Refusing to buy a game because its creator rudely broad-brushes what has generally been considered a truism this generation is irrational.
He clearly does not hate "Japanese games." Fez's art direction is a love letter to the NES.
How so? Particularly compared to Bethesda's own, earlier games. Or Piranha Bytes' output for that matter. It seems incremental at best. (Full disclosure: Skyrim was my GotY 2011)
Risk Breaker
Member
Nope, my detector went off as well.
Kacho
Member
Do tell?
I would argue that mechanically Japanese games are far superior in terms of their complexity and how rewarding they can be to master all of the nuances. What they often don't have are shiny graphics and water cooler moments.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Hand holding has been common in gaming during several years already, Uncharted 2 (again being the perfect western example) constantly gives you hints as soon as the player may feel lost.
It's funny how when I read this topic title, I was trying to deny it with "Well maybe it's out of context. No one can be that big of a dick." And it's WORSE IN CONTEXT. FUCK.
He's one of the key subjects of the documentary, why do I want to watch a film that asks me to empathize with this fucking douchebag?
Neuromancer
Member
No matter how outrageous someone's behavior, you can always find someone here who will agree with it or defend it.
That's not true at all. Perhaps a minority of people get it primarily for the single player, but a minority of a ton of people is still a lot of people.
Wow poor guy. I've been excited for Fez since it has been announced and have been looking forward to it for a long time. This does hurt my enthusiasm for the game quite a bit. I will probably still pick it up when it eventually makes it to PC, but this won't make me feel any kind of good when buying it.
semiconscious
Gold Member
this's much the same as with reviewers only ever using 'mots' when as an additional criticism of a game they're already bashing. 'hand-holding' = japanese. otherwise, it's not hand-holding. 'mots' = games you don't enjoy. otherwise, it's not 'mots'...
McBradders
NeoGAF: my new HOME
A criticism that should be levelled at the entire industry.
Japanese games are far from the worst culprits. Ugh.
Did you play Resonance of Fate or Valkyria Chronicles? Not stale at all.
Riposte
Member
I would love to see these guys talk about Street Fighter IV, for kicks.
:3
EDIT: It looks like Nintendo is free of Japan's criticisms until it is time to criticize Japan because Zelda is too streamlined.
:3
EDIT: It looks like Nintendo is free of Japan's criticisms until it is time to criticize Japan because Zelda is too streamlined.
Groundbreaking? Really?
Skyrim is an impressive game, but it really is just a further refinement of the Bethesda formula that has been around since the early 90s. If anything, a lot of depth has been sacrificed with each iteration in order to allow for more complex visuals. They've been making games like Skyrim for years.
I said as much (that hand holding is common). The issue with Zelda in particular is the way in which it holds your hand. The game feels the need to constantly interrupt the action with lengthy text boxes that you are unable to skip through. It's time consuming and slows down the game with useless information.
That's very different than simply popping up a bit of text giving you an idea what to do without actually interrupting the gameplay.
jump_button
Banned
he just doing it for Free PR if not then what a dick
Zomba13
Member
If he was just doing this for the publicity then I'd say he's more of a dick than if he actually means it.
outunderthestars
Banned
Odd choice as I just bought that game and think it is the single worst game I have played all generation. It's unbelievably dense, complicated, and nonsensical from the very get go. I was unable to get more than an hour into the game before quitting due a complete lack of anything resembling fun. I can't see any possible way that a non-JRPG loving audience could even begin to approach it.
PHIL FISH ‏ @PHIL_FISH
japanese games are just two western games duct-taped together.
Ryan O'Donnell ‏ @ryanodonnell
@PHIL_FISH LOL.
Patrick Klepek ‏ @patrickklepek
@PHIL_FISH @bfod Shit My Phil Fish Says
See, here comes the indie defense force.
All about covering sexism and harassment, but when it's their boy, it's hilarious
japanese games are just two western games duct-taped together.
Ryan O'Donnell ‏ @ryanodonnell
@PHIL_FISH LOL.
Patrick Klepek ‏ @patrickklepek
@PHIL_FISH @bfod Shit My Phil Fish Says
See, here comes the indie defense force.
All about covering sexism and harassment, but when it's their boy, it's hilarious
PsychoSoldier
Banned
Not wanting to support a guy who acts this way in a public forum isn't necessarily irrational. It just means I value the way the creators of a game present themselves in a public forum.
Obviously, this kind of judgement is easier to make when I have so many other choices in terms of entertainment.
sigh, c'mon Ryan.
PairOfFilthySocks
Member
Ok well first I'd like to mention that when making this post this is not an endorsement of what Phil said. It was a pretty terrible thing to say and turning around to see the guy's face at the mic made me feel bad inside. I recall his question was about what the panelists thought about Japanese games today and maybe he thought the answer would've been more inviting given the posters that were up in that one bedroom during the movie
Now I haven't really seen any mention of what the criticisms were up to page 5 and from page 13 onward so maybe someone mentioned this but unfortunately nobody's talking about it so I'll butt in a little. I don't remember word for word what is said but this current discussion kind of stinks so whatever.
One of Phil and Jonothan's problems with modern Japanese games (at least what was said during panel) was the amount of hand holding that goes on in them. Fish cited Zelda as an example; LoZ dropped you into a world without any instruction on what to do, you went ahead and figured out how to do things on your own, bombable walls were actual secrets, etc. So basically LoZ had a sense of discovery to it that he really valued. But Skyward Sword doesn't have that; bombable walls are really obvious because there's this crack in the wall, tutorials are too long, the game often interrupts you and makes sure to list out, step by step, what you're supposed to do next, then reconfirm you got it right after you finished or whatever.
Jonothan expanded on that by saying that some games (not sure if he meant Japanese specific) can become too polished, to the point that there's not really any game left because there's no way for the player to try and do their own thing. Basically everything has an arrow pointing to it and "you should go do this!". No sense of vulnerability, no sense of experimentation, a very sterile experience. I only remember Zelda as the example they cited having this problem, so I'm not really sure what other Japanese games they had in mind under that criteria.
Also, they had no problem with Dark Souls and Street Fighter 4. They just kind of went "Dark Souls is good. Yeah Street Fighter 4 is ok".
I probably do them a disservice by writing this up but I believe I got the sentiment of what their criticisms were. Hopefully they'll have something more accurate coming out soon but again Phil's comment was really stupid and I'd hate to be the guy that came up to the mic and heard his fucking awful response.
The world does not contain enough facepalm gifs...
EDIT:
At first I thought you guys defending this twat just didn't play Japanese games. Now I wonder whether you play games at all.
Really? It has been considered a truism this generation? You might want to read this excellent post.
Further more, he made a statement. In public. On a GDC panel. He could've put a little bit of nuance in his statements on twitter or something but instead he chooses to throw more dumb comments out there on twitter ("im sorry japanese guy! i was a bit rough, but your country's games are fucking terrible nowadays.", "japanese games are just two western games duct-taped together.", really???) So yeah, maybe it's all a joke or something. However, people are not laughing, instead they call him out on his dumb statements, and rightly so. Then all there is left is to show him you disagree with him, by not buying his game. Vote with your wallet.
Krauser Kat
Member
This thread is full of stupid butt hurt.
Everyone needs to read his twitter to understand his statement better. Taking the statement at face value is a terrible way to approach discussion on this topic.
His opinion as expressed from a person on an official GDC panel was just that, an opinion. His games and himself stand on their own. It does not make is opinion any less or more valid, albeit maybe more valid than anyone on this forum who has not created a game from scratch and toured it around at conventions.
My opinion along to be placed along with his is Japanese devs have lost this generation carte blanche to western devs in every category except 3rd person beat em up which bayonetta holds the title for.
Everyone needs to read his twitter to understand his statement better. Taking the statement at face value is a terrible way to approach discussion on this topic.
His opinion as expressed from a person on an official GDC panel was just that, an opinion. His games and himself stand on their own. It does not make is opinion any less or more valid, albeit maybe more valid than anyone on this forum who has not created a game from scratch and toured it around at conventions.
My opinion along to be placed along with his is Japanese devs have lost this generation carte blanche to western devs in every category except 3rd person beat em up which bayonetta holds the title for.
Wolfe
Member
"I don't know if I like you anymore cause you seem more and more like an asshole, but here take my money anyway."
Fuck that dude, the more I hear about this guy the more he comes off as a dick, my level of care about his game just dropped to zero.
Cool, just because it's his opinion doesn't make it truth. You can't come in here and say "stop getting butt hurt, dudes not an ass it's just his opinion!" It's his fault for not explaining the reasoning behind his opinion, or just expanding on it so that I could understand it aside from just "japanese games suck!"
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