Sumio Mondo
Member
It did, you're right. It's just that Lost Odyssey had most of the same devs as those that worked on Shadow Hearts.
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FF12 makes me realize even more how bad 15 is
- Thread starter The Dude
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It did, you're right. It's just that Lost Odyssey had most of the same devs as those that worked on Shadow Hearts.
But FFXII is the one with boring characters, boring villains and no story?
yukimeans_snow
Member
make an FF game that is way worse than XV and people will appreciate XV
The turn order bar has made it into many series in different shapes. The check next in Persona, the order bar in Atelier games, Radiant Historia. In a more general sense FF10 streamlined the ATB system by cutting out the bar filling part. Of course FF10 didn't invent these systems but they popularized this framework enough. If you wanted to be pedantic FFT would be the origin of the marriage of ATB and turn based (or maybe some earlier Quest title I didn't play).
The only pure turn based exception would be LO, but that seems like they build in a turn order bar without understanding its meaning because it only shows up after you select your party's moves in a very NES-system way.
Didn't know that! Never had an Xbox so didn't get to play it.
Super Mario RPG did it before either of those games.
Pandora012
Member
But SMT IV was soo boring tho. I'm liking Apocalypse more, but from what I'm hearing about the ending has me worried.
Drillary Clinton
Banned
Xenoblade is just a white knuckle thrillride
CharminUltra
Member
I wasn't a fan of XII (disliked the MMO-ish combat, the rest I was sorta OK with), but based on what I've seen of FFXV (which I haven't played) I think I'd rather replay XII lol.
RurouniZel
Asks questions so Ezalc doesn't have to
Ah my bad, I haven't played BoF4 or the first SMT. I stand corrected.
Could you swap DQIV characters mid battle in the original? I remember that in the DS remake but it's been ages since I played it on NES.
ATB without bar filling is called turn-based, which FF1-3 had. FF10 does not have ATB at all.
Yes.
Because those points are objectively better and anyone saying otherwise is utterly wrong
j/k
Sumio Mondo
Member
Neoleo2143
Member
Yeah, the endgame has issues. The final boss is super dope though. Probably one of the best bosses in the entire series.
Lights and Waves
Member
I also find the Zodiac Age circlejerk to be ironic, seeing as how people are finally praising the game once they added a fast-forward feature that makes it so you don't actually have to play the majority of it.
Regardless, I'm hooked
Regardless, I'm hooked
TheEndOfItAll
Neo Member
Are you just talking about Costlemark for FFXV? I loved the dungeon design in general, but that one was a slog.
MugiwaraCole
Member
I compared XV to XII favorably when I first started the former. And I love XII.
I don't know what the fuck I was thinking now, though. I'm enjoying the story more than I remember doing so.
I don't know what the fuck I was thinking now, though. I'm enjoying the story more than I remember doing so.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
IX was the nosedive. X fixed things 13 was the tailspin.
Sumio Mondo
Member
Yeah, that was the only good thing about the endgame. And it really is a fantastic boss battle. That music!
Volcanic activity on this take. Watch for the magma.
semiconscious
Gold Member
Hibiki Kurosawa
Member
Final Fantasy XII is phenomenal and my favourite FF along with V. It's still the standard that following FFs need to follow if not in gameplay then at least in production values, style, and localization.
Pandora012
Member
Never did I ever think after playing FFX-2, that it would be the last FF that I'd enjoy. I know people say XII is great and all, but I didn't enjoy it when it first released. I'll come back and try it out to see if my opinion changes.
Hard to believe people like the linear stuff in XV considering Chapter 13...
The open world was the best part of XV to me and was really impressive. Doing hunts and exploring a more expansive area in a modern FF was really cool. Unfortunately, the driving and the unchangeable chocobo music (now fixed) killed my will to keep exploring.
I really didn't like how all the treasure in the game was represented by a stupid shining dot either. The lack of costume changes near launch was pretty disheartening too. I would've rather they gave us non-static armor because most of the outfits are ugly.
S-E's attempts to make things more casual friendly seem like they significantly hurt their games, not the sales necessarily, but in terms of having an overall complete package of fan reception, reviews and sales. It's pretty frustrating with the stuff we wind up getting in their attempts to broaden the audience. I wish they'd have the cajones to just make a new FF without giving a damn about how accessible it will be.
The open world was the best part of XV to me and was really impressive. Doing hunts and exploring a more expansive area in a modern FF was really cool. Unfortunately, the driving and the unchangeable chocobo music (now fixed) killed my will to keep exploring.
I really didn't like how all the treasure in the game was represented by a stupid shining dot either. The lack of costume changes near launch was pretty disheartening too. I would've rather they gave us non-static armor because most of the outfits are ugly.
S-E's attempts to make things more casual friendly seem like they significantly hurt their games, not the sales necessarily, but in terms of having an overall complete package of fan reception, reviews and sales. It's pretty frustrating with the stuff we wind up getting in their attempts to broaden the audience. I wish they'd have the cajones to just make a new FF without giving a damn about how accessible it will be.
Congrats you're the first person to actually give a reasonably valid rebuke!
Stealthcobra
Member
How is the combat better when you can just watch it play itself
The last dungeon is absolutely atrocious, but other than that it's pretty much in line with the rest of the game. Final boss is really good too, one of the toughest fights I've had in a megaten game.
The problem with Apocalypse is that despite being mechanically superior to IV, its tone feels off for a SMT game and it has some really weird and out-of-place harem hijinks. It also has some of the cringiest power of friendship speeches I've seen. Other than that it's a really good game.
There is a difference in turn order, though. The pre-ATB FF, DQ etc. games made the strategic layer a pain because you had to select a party behaviour while everything after FFIV gave you more granular tactical options because you select behavior per character.
FF10 used the Matsuno interpretation of ATB (FFT, LucT) and added an extra QoL UI element with the turn order bar, while simultaneously removing the bar filling, which A: removed waiting times for skilled players and B: gives non-skilled players infinite time to plan.
Hey now, one of the most celebrated features of the remaster is fast-forwarding combat you already barely play.
Your statement is factually incorrect.
You can be negative about XV, as I was myself in this thread, without using hyperbole out outright falsities.
semiconscious
Gold Member
Your opinion on IX is that of the minority so it's a weird thing to base your argument off of.
IX is a beloved and acclaimed game.
UpDownLeftRight
Banned
To be honest both XV and XII have something I appreciate. A lot less time wasted. I actually never got past the second dungeon in P5 since as stylish as the game is I'm going to have spent hours looking at the lavish end of fight screens etc by the time I'm done. It's too much tedium when combined with an extremely slow turn based system.
XII is no doubt superior to XV in virtually every way though.
XII is no doubt superior to XV in virtually every way though.
FFXV is an evolution of FFXII in many ways (especially when it comes to the interconnectedness & exploration of the world & how time of day/weather affect the world), so I think it does disservice to the game to dismiss all of those things it took from FFXII & evolved and say it does everything worse. It does most of those things better while faltering mostly in the storytelling department, though it's not like FFXII is some kind of tour de force when it comes to storytelling either. It has plenty of aimless wandering and a narrative that takes the backseat for large chunks of the game past the beginning and prior to the finale. The writing/dialogue is better in FFXII but I feel FFXV still nails the comradery & evolving relationship of the main cast better than FFXII does its relationship between characters, even if the story outside of that can be a bit of a mess.
Gameplay is debatable. FFXII has a more polished combat experience but I felt FFXV offers the higher highs & a more involving battle system thanks to going all in with the action-y combat. FFXII feels more subdued and, of course, AI-centric. FFXV also has more freedom and the sense of place is even better than FFXII (which I felt was the high point of the franchise up until FFXV). Running around with Chocobo in FFXV in the sunset >>>>> FFXII's Chocobo & traversal.
Neither are particularly excellent when it comes to sidequest design. Both offer some highlights and some boring busywork.
Gameplay is debatable. FFXII has a more polished combat experience but I felt FFXV offers the higher highs & a more involving battle system thanks to going all in with the action-y combat. FFXII feels more subdued and, of course, AI-centric. FFXV also has more freedom and the sense of place is even better than FFXII (which I felt was the high point of the franchise up until FFXV). Running around with Chocobo in FFXV in the sunset >>>>> FFXII's Chocobo & traversal.
Neither are particularly excellent when it comes to sidequest design. Both offer some highlights and some boring busywork.
It's really not. Writing is the only thing that is clearly superior and even then FFXII is far from perfect. The gambit system is pretty genius but I don't think it makes for an unarguably better gameplay experience. Running around, watching the characters do a lot of the action for you in combat isn't necessarily unarguably better than the more involved, action-y combat of FFXV, even if it could be tightened up a bit.
15 is a bit of a mess but it was still one of my favorite games last year.
Every game since X has mixed things up quite a bit, and naturally this desire to re-invent the wheel Square feels compelled to follow with each new installment is going to create some polarizing opinions. XII was just the first, I think, where people realized this was going to be the norm for the series going forward.
Every game since X has mixed things up quite a bit, and naturally this desire to re-invent the wheel Square feels compelled to follow with each new installment is going to create some polarizing opinions. XII was just the first, I think, where people realized this was going to be the norm for the series going forward.
??
What? I feel like the SMT series is infamous for having pretty fast battles. i'll give you the post-battle screen. Even that felt fast, but I played off of an SSD.
RurouniZel
Asks questions so Ezalc doesn't have to
Be aware that XII's beginning is its greatest strength. It's after the first 15-20 hours where it suffers.
Edited to adj. hyperbole levels.
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
I still like P3FES the best overall of the nu Personas. So there!
Stealthcobra
Member
you prefer holding a button?
Can't you change weapons mid battle? Use magic? Its more involved than a gambit system where you are basically gimmicked into programming the battle for the devs, instead of a legit battle system
And after a long and winding journey we've come to the correct answer on Persona. The Answer is pretty bad though.
It wasn't even the best JRPG of 2006. Mother 3 came out the following month.
AlexFlame116
Member
UtterlyPerplexed
Member
I'm not exactly enamoured with FFXII either. I just recall the Necrohol of Nabudis being laced with traps everywhere and my party members were to gormless to avoid them, so they would quickly die or have debilitating status effects constantly thrown at them. It's regular annoyances like that and the fact that so many of the dungeons felt like a slog with their architecture and box-like designs quickly wearing thin that make FFXII feel a bit middling to me.
But the breadth of its lore, the quality of the script, the voice work, the cutscene direction and you know, an actual good heroine character all come together to surpass FFXV so thoroughly that it's embarrassing. On so many occasions I would see these shots from behind the back of Noctis or whoever conversing with another character and the latter would move their lips, stare into space and shuffle their bodies in such unnatural ways that it looked really amateur and distracting. It was something I would expect from a small studio with a low budget, not something of Square Enix's calibre.
Objectively speaking, FFXII signals the start of SE just losing it. They have the talent, but are saddled with the organisational, management and efficiency prowess of chimps. The only exception is FFXIV since 2.0 of course, but other than Yoshi-P's department, the rest of the company appears to be utterly incapable of coming up with a fully coherent package without the umpteenth instance of development hell and/or engine problems. It was well documented that FFXIV 1.0 had people working on disparate parts of the game with little to no communication with each other so when time came to put all the pieces together, it was a nightmare, made worse by pure inefficiency and a subpar engine. And I can easily believe that they were rewriting major parts of FFXV's script even way into 2016. This company is so fortunate that it's still easily making bank, because you'd think this consistent pattern of ineptitude would sink anyone else.
But the breadth of its lore, the quality of the script, the voice work, the cutscene direction and you know, an actual good heroine character all come together to surpass FFXV so thoroughly that it's embarrassing. On so many occasions I would see these shots from behind the back of Noctis or whoever conversing with another character and the latter would move their lips, stare into space and shuffle their bodies in such unnatural ways that it looked really amateur and distracting. It was something I would expect from a small studio with a low budget, not something of Square Enix's calibre.
Objectively speaking, FFXII signals the start of SE just losing it. They have the talent, but are saddled with the organisational, management and efficiency prowess of chimps. The only exception is FFXIV since 2.0 of course, but other than Yoshi-P's department, the rest of the company appears to be utterly incapable of coming up with a fully coherent package without the umpteenth instance of development hell and/or engine problems. It was well documented that FFXIV 1.0 had people working on disparate parts of the game with little to no communication with each other so when time came to put all the pieces together, it was a nightmare, made worse by pure inefficiency and a subpar engine. And I can easily believe that they were rewriting major parts of FFXV's script even way into 2016. This company is so fortunate that it's still easily making bank, because you'd think this consistent pattern of ineptitude would sink anyone else.
Hello? This is Hailun!
Member
Cause Matsuno is GOAT.
I don't consider being able to see whose turn is next as a FFX thing, specially not the way Persona does it. To me, different actions pushing you further down or up the turn ladder depending on the delay of said action is what defines FF X's battle system. I don't know if the other games you mentioned have that, but Persona doesn't, the turn order is always static based on your agility stat.
I think Shadow Hearts and Xenosaga later picked up on the turn list type system that FF10 had.
However, I think the combat in Shadow Hearts 2 was a lot better and more involved than FF10, so I wouldn't call 10 a masterpiece, just a step in the evolution.
Hmm?
FF12 is the last square game i enjoyed
Is the ff14 "campaign" playable without
- meddling in the mmo systems
- mmo-grinding and raids etc
- social interaction with orher players
Can i play it like an ordinary rpg and finish the story?
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