MaximumSpider
Banned
I really liked Cid's character.
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FF7: Wife-beater Cid? Am I meant to like this guy?
- Thread starter TannerDemoz
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Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
It's really doubtful Barret was created with the intention of 'parodying' the typical 'black man' attitude. It was much more likely that they really thought that's how a black man should be typecasted at in a media.
I'm going to just assume this is sarcadm.
Have you people actually played Final Fantasy 7 or read the replies in the thread? It's not treated as acceptable even just in the context of the game, it's portrayed as a massive character flaw and his character arc and development involves him coming to terms with his past and correcting his behavior.
I don't think I've seen a single post saying that his behavior was okay in this entire thread or anyone using the fact he's rude to everyone as justification for his actions. People are discussing the character and putting him in context, I don't believe there is a single post in this entire thread that's doing what you're claiming that people are.
With the way people are complaining about this maybe that's what they want.
For example ?
Considering the vast majority of people strongly oppose OPs opinion, I doubt it.
I'll admit that some people don't like to think all that much about what's going on. It's why we (as developers) have to explain a lot, but I think that shouldn't stop writers from telling the story they want to tell. They do have to accept the fact that there are people out there who won't like it.
The game I'm working on now has quite a few not so nice NPCs and there's a lot of room for the player to take in what happened and reflect on it. I tried not to pull any punches. I do accept that there will be people who hate this as some things are uncomfortable and not PC. There's nothing wrong with this.
My problem with Cid is that he wasn't likable and I felt like he didn't have anything redeemable about him. At the end of the day I really didn't care about what happened to him and his girlfriend. I just wanted him to go get on someone else's nerves and leave me alone. He wasn't that compelling to me because I felt like he was an asshole and his reason for being an asshole didn't hold up for me. It's all how it's interpreted and I respect those who like the character and enjoyed his storyline. In my opinion, it should have been better or presented better.
I don't mind games towing the moral line, but at the end of the day we still want entertaining fiction and our characters are generally the heroes of the story. They can be flawed, but we still should be able to connect with them on some level.
Would be cool if they flesh it out a bit in the remake. Perhaps then I'd be willing to reevaluate the character.
I actually really like Cid even if he's an asshole and probably an abusive person. He's flawed. I hope that the remake helps flesh out his character arc a little more to make it just a bit more realistic. You can tell they cut some corners with the the build up and resolution of his arc.
Brutalitops
Banned
It would be nice to see the discussion move away from the very first thing mentioned in the thread title, sure.
It probably wasn't originally an offensive word, and was just a term used to refer to the mentally disabled. I haven't really done research on the history behind it, so I can't say for sure.
Regardless, at some point, people began using it mainly as an insult. When Tifa calls Barret a "retard," she's basically calling him a dumbass.
As someone with an autistic brother, I never cared for the word, since I grew up hearing peers use it in such a negative way. When I hear people use it that way, it feels like they're making light of those with serious mental and physical disabilities. It's not like I fly into a rage when I hear it used casually, but I find it distasteful.
Brutalitops
Banned
I must admit I am guilty of using this word as a synonym for "dickhead" or "idiot" but only ever to my close friends. It's no defense, but to me I don't even associate it with mental illness when I say it, it's just a word to us now.
It might make me a bit shitty, but I would never ever use it among strangers and especially the mentally disabled.
I think his reason fits within the context of the story. He sacrificed his dream to prevent Shera's death and he didn't believe that she was actually right about the oxygen tanks.
He literally gave up the one thing he cared about and she sticks around to take care of him (he clearly isn't good at taking care of himself at this point). He treats her like shit because she's a constant reminder of their past. He doesn't think he'll ever get another chance to go to space.
A lot of people were able to connect with him. He was fleshed out well of a character and I don't think that you're going to like his character unless they drastically change him
You don't have to like every character in the game (I most certainly don't) but I think this character probably hits your moral line in a way that doesn't make him redeemable to you. I would rather not have his character or story arc significantly changed because it's a big part of what made him Cid Highwind and it's also a big part of what made FF7 FF7 to me.
Like cretin, moron, imbecile, spastic and idiot; it was once intended to refer to disabilities without resorting to the pejorative terms of the time. In all cases, the euphemism treadmill made sure the terms made their way into common usage as insults.
Still, by the time the game was written, in popular usage it only meant one thing. I don't expect the line will make it into the remake - since it would be difficult to carry the use of a slur across in an offhand line in a way that didn't condone its usage, keeping it would be in bad taste. I wonder what the original Japanese line was...
gamingPotato7
Member
Yeah because we cant have stories with complex characters that dont always do the right things. Does everything nowadays have to be carefully catered to not offend anyone? The game doesnt condone his fucking behavior like it doesnt for any other of the dark shit the other chars do including the terrorist attack in the beginning of the game.
Rats Off To Ya
Banned
bad thread
So Tifa has bad taste and what she said makes you uncomfortable. Why does that need to change?
Avatar quote would be too predictable
Yeah, I figure most people who use it don't mean for it to come across that way and don't really think about it. I mean, I've heard some people close to me use it too, it's not like I excommunicate them. lol, I wasn't trying to make anyone feel like shit, just sharing my opinion on the word.
Yeah, the original intent gets twisted over time into something ugly, and people forget its original purpose.
I'm more coming from the angle that S-E presumably doesn't want one of their most major and marketable characters saying anything controversial in a modern mainline title. Keeping it in the rereleases of the original is one thing, but actively transitioning it to a fully voiced line in a high-budget remake would likely get them bad press they'd want to avoid.
It's more that Cid has a rather particular way of talking that he uses with everyone in all contexts that when combined with his attitude towards Shera sounds worse than it is. He's just really salty because he thinks Shera ruined his life's dream and that all gets resolved and his character grows. Yes, you are supposed to dislike his attitude towards Shera, and the rest of the characters react to his abrasiveness similarly. And then you're supposed to like him more as his character changes and grows and resolves his internal conflict.
How about the fact that Avalanche is a straight up terrorist organization and you spend the first part of the game committing acts of terror that more likely than not result in the deaths of many innocent people? Barret even points out later that the environmental crap was just an attempt to justify his revenge and there's no excusing the atrocities you committed in your war with Shinra. FF7 really walks a gray area. And really it should; because it leaves the question of whether humanity is worth saving more nebulous.
How about the fact that Avalanche is a straight up terrorist organization and you spend the first part of the game committing acts of terror that more likely than not result in the deaths of many innocent people? Barret even points out later that the environmental crap was just an attempt to justify his revenge and there's no excusing the atrocities you committed in your war with Shinra. FF7 really walks a gray area. And really it should; because it leaves the question of whether humanity is worth saving more nebulous.
More bad press than Avalanche, the terrorist group, who sacrifice innocent civilians for the "cause"? Should that change to? Terrorism is a lot more controversial now than then too...
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I bet it was just "baka" (stupid, idiot)
I would say "of course" that line won't make it into the remake, and not even to avoid controversy.
No one is going to pay attention to this game's rushed 1997 English script when they re-translate the remake.
Maybe an Easter egg reference or two... "let's mosey", maybe? Otherwise it's all going in the garbage.
Use of "retard"
Barrett
Cross-dressing played for laughs (my memory is fuzzy on this one)
Cid's uncomfortable verbal abuse
"Uncomfortable" is a good word to describe FFVII, in my honest opinion.
Eh, there was a reason for it. Also having bishi characters dress as beautiful women is still done today in games like Trails in the Sky.
Shouldn't that be "off course"?
Anyway FF7's localization was kind of good and bad at the same time. It felt like the first game in the series where they didn't really try to remove "uncomfortable" content which IMO at least was good and at the time extremely refreshing. On the other hand the script itself was filled with obvious typos ("This guy are sick" is my personal favorite) and lots of awkward lines.
I'm hoping you're right and the old translation is pretty much scrapped entirely, particularly the Mr. T Barrett stuff which honestly felt really stupid even then. A couple lines in particular I'll probably miss if the get changed but I'd rather have a more accurate and less awkward translation.
Certainly in the US. Personally I didn't have any sympathy with terrorism back then either seeing as IRA bombs were still being detonated in the UK in 1997.
I think with FFVII at least Shinra/Jenova really were pretty evil and on the verge of destroying the planet. It makes Avalanche's 'it's for the greater good!' argument mildly easier to swallow when it wasn't about influencing political gain through terrorising the populace, it was a fact that the world was going to be destroyed if someone didn't oppose Shinra, and even then the collateral damage makes them question it.
'Eco-terrorists' doesn't quite describe how bad a situation the remaining people in FFVII were in, and despite them adopting the 'terrorism' moniker, I'm not sure it describes what they were doing when getting Shinra to change its ways wasn't the goal, actively opposing them by destroying their facilities was. The fact that those facilities were largely in a huge urban area makes it a horrific moral choice, but I'm not entirely sure it comes under terrorism rather than poorly-thought-through sabotage in the name of resistance to a totalitarian force hell-bent on world destruction, with nobody else doing much to even slow them down. Happy to concede that it's splitting hairs though.
They need to at least keep in stuff like "There ain't no gettin' offa this train we on."
Movalpolos
Banned
You want to move away from the discussion you brought up? Sorry, it doesn't work that way. Your title is inflammatory so you are looking for reaction, right?
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Touche.
They need to at least keep in stuff like "There ain't no gettin' offa this train we on."
Yeah that in particular was the main quote I was thinking.
I have to say, I always played the german version where the translation seems to differ.
Therefore the first two points are not negative for me, but I'll understand them after seeing some pictures of the English translation.
The cross-dressing was mainly to get past that point, which was a nice difference compared to the usual fight your way through.
There were some snarky remarks from Aerith and some NPCs, but that's about it.
Weird, killing literally thousands of people doesn't seem to be a problem for the vast majority of people and that's where you draw the line ?
Anyway, I already gave away my opinion about Cid and I can't see how it is "worse" or anywhere problematic, especially with games today.
The only difference is, that alot of JRPGs lack a grey layer in terms of character types and just go with the usual black or white routine. Those type of characters are a welcome change and I hope we'll see more.
And I surely agree that they could work on his depth, as they barely scratched the surface and Cid appeared rather dull in comparsion to others.
If FF7 is already uncomfortable for you, there are plenty of alternatives.
So it really won't come up at all in the remake if they're just going directly off the Japanese script. That alone will lead to quite a few discrepancies with the characterisation people remember from the English version of the original game, not accounting for the inevitable differences in the actual writing of the remake as opposed to the original Japanese script. In any case, even if it's going to be more faithful than the original to its source, I do hope that they'll insert a "let's mosey" in there at some point.
Yeah, I have to agree with the majority here. Cid is an interesting character with a nice arc to him, which doesn't excuse his initial behaviour of course (but does make him more interesting because he has serious flaws, like the rest of the cast).
It's cool reading through this thread since I'm currently replaying through the PS4 rerelease after not having played the game for like, 18 years or so.
One thing that really bothered me in relation to Cid though:
I never really understood that part. Almost felt like it was shoehorned in so there would be a good setup for the
It's cool reading through this thread since I'm currently replaying through the PS4 rerelease after not having played the game for like, 18 years or so.
One thing that really bothered me in relation to Cid though:
what did Rufus need the Tiny Bronco for? To cross the ocean right? Why? He has an entire squadron of planes and an airship at his disposal.
escape sequence
Bad OP but surprisingly great discussion in this thread about the grayness of FF7's characters, especially between LordKasual and Novel Mike.
I almost didn't click on the thread for the title but I was bored and can't sleep. I'm glad I read through it.
I liked FF7 but thought nothing of the cast except I didn't like any of them. It's one of my least favorite FF casts. This thread is making me reexamine that.
Doctor_Thomas
Member
If I remember correctly, Rufus specially says the airship is days from being ready in Junon and, up to this point, Shinra have been tracking Sephiroth on foot and realise, at this moment, that he's on another continent so they need quick access to something that flies. It's also a plot device and another example of Shinra trying to take everything from Cid.
Weltall Zero
Member
I always thought he was pretty much a piece of shit, even back then. Definitely my least favorite FF7 character and that includes the villains. I guess he's supposed to be the jerk with a heart of gold archetype, but they really overdid the jerk and underdid the heart.
In a meta way, it illustrates how often verbal abuse is overlooked as "not actual abuse".
In a meta way, it illustrates how often verbal abuse is overlooked as "not actual abuse".
whalleywhat
Member
"This work of fiction was designed, developed and produced by a multicultural team of various religions and faiths, only some of whom are unapologetic wife-beaters."
squarealex
Member
wow, this thread..
Even I like Cid.
Even I like Cid.
I'm sure most of the comments here are from people who never played the game and are just getting triggered by the op saying that Cid is a wife beater (no wife beating happens). He's just a douche because his dreams were destroyed which turns him into a rough guy who eventually redeems some of his flaws.
Since Tumblr became a thing I think
Well, to be honest, before I read this thread, I had no idea that a lot of people liked that character. All of the people I know who have played FFVII hate him and don't use him at all. My wife always makes fun of him whenever she's playing the game. *shrug* Doesn't matter to me. Like I said, everyone can have their own opinion of the character, and that's fine. That said, I agree with you that he shouldn't be changed, however, I do want them to expand on his character more. Maybe that would change my opinion of him. I just thought that the way they did it in the original FFVII wasn't all that great and it could have been fleshed out a bit more.
M0nochromatic
Member
I hope no one actually think it's wrong to write or enjoy deeply flawed protagonists. Writing and creating an abusive asshole does not mean that the work or the author condones real life abuse. Liking a flawed character does not mean you condone whatever evil they do.
For example, in the animated show Steven Universe, there is a protaganist who traps someone in what could be described as an abusive relationship. The fanbase for that character most certainly dosen't like that character because they are abusive, but because of the complex drama that occurs and how that character acts and changes in response to the harsh realities they have to face.
For example, in the animated show Steven Universe, there is a protaganist who traps someone in what could be described as an abusive relationship. The fanbase for that character most certainly dosen't like that character because they are abusive, but because of the complex drama that occurs and how that character acts and changes in response to the harsh realities they have to face.
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