Cindi Mayweather
Member
Why not continue with an Ivalice line afterwards then?
We're left in the dark and Ivalice is now dead. Sure, this could be because Matsuno left the company, but throw us a bone.
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"Final Fantasy Disease" Infected Square Enix, Says FFXV's Director
- Thread starter The Last One
- Start date
Why not continue with an Ivalice line afterwards then?
We're left in the dark and Ivalice is now dead. Sure, this could be because Matsuno left the company, but throw us a bone.
Why would you want anything Ivalice related without Matsuno though?
Every other FF was "Press Attack to awesome" for 95% of normal battles, too. Take off the nostalgia goggles.
I agree that Square Enix does not support new IPs the way you would see a place like Ubisoft, EA, Take-Two, or Activision Blizzard do so.
Just read this part of the interview. It's probably the worst part in my opinion:
Harada:
Maybe for those who think smartphones games are plenty enough, thinks that they have no need for a high end gaming pc or a home gaming console.
Tabata:
That is why during these times, I think it would be much better to create games geared towards the younger generations of players. Since once you become an adult, you may even stop playing any type of hard-core games. And if we go there, I think games like Minecraft and Splatoon are great examples for this case.
Harada:
Maybe for those who think smartphones games are plenty enough, thinks that they have no need for a high end gaming pc or a home gaming console.
Tabata:
That is why during these times, I think it would be much better to create games geared towards the younger generations of players. Since once you become an adult, you may even stop playing any type of hard-core games. And if we go there, I think games like Minecraft and Splatoon are great examples for this case.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
What? They did continue the Ivalice line. It's called Ivalice Alliance. It wasn't exactly a success.
And they also tried a second time with Fortress, but that was even more of a trainwreck.
SE have Platinum reboot this!
Cindi Mayweather
Member
The Ivalice Alliance post-FF12 was an FFT port, Renevant Wings, and Tactics A2.
It just didn't seem like a proper way of capitalizing on FF12 to me.
Sure, there was Fortress, but I'm shocked nothing else came from that after the project was nixed. And now we're like two years after the release of FF10 HD and still not news on FF12 HD.
It's just annoying.
Fair enough. Sigh.
Perfo
Thirteen flew over the cuckoo's nest
Probably in Japan, as for the West I'm pretty sure it's time to go full real time action. Even FFXV is too scared of this. Look at all the successfull wRPGs of nowdays, most of them are real time while the genre in the past was full of turn based strategic battles. Why jRPG can't adapt to modern times quicker before everyone forgets about it -.-'
DiipuSurotu
Banned
Well there are still the rumors (more like, hopes) that Hiroyuki Ito has been working on... something, for all these years.
Personally I would be fine with something Ivalice-related by Ito, since he was the director and game designer of FF12 from start to finish.
"Constant focus"? Which titles are you referring to?
XV and FF7R most likely.
It's not really constant, XV was always going to be action so I don't see the point to bring up here with that title.
FF7R battle system really hasn't been detailed either.
It would be hard to say that these games have encouraged consumers to "avoid new releases" when neither of these games have actually been released.
How are they being avoided when those games have yet to even release?
True, so I'm guessing he's just doesn't like the action style SE is going for.
Up until the very end at Square I believe. I'm sure people more knowledgeable about Square's history than me will be able to expand, but what I'm aware of is Xenogears started as a pitch for FF7. I think I read in some magazine preview that FF9 wasn't originally planned as a FF game but I can't find that anymore (when officially announced it was part of the FF9, FF10, FF11 triumvirate). Sakaguch also had been a huge fan of SRPGs and Matsuno, first doing Bahamut Lagoon, then hiring him and his core team and trying to groom him toward an FF game, but before FF12 released both left Square already.
It's just a reflection of (perceived?) realities in Japan, only younger people have enough spare time to sit at home in front of a big screen. It certainly explains the success of handhelds and mobile as well as the (aside the Wii "fad") constant diminishing of consoles in Japan.
ethomaz
Banned
The action oriented way SE is going with FF.
I for exemple stopped before purchase FFXIII... it was the deal breaker for me... played the demo and what that sucks? Same happened with FFXV that has worst combat system than FFXIII.
Anecdotal yeap and I hope I'm wrong and FF find a new userbase focused in non-party control gameplay.
I understand that but wRPGs mostly plays in a single character control... I like to have control of all my party with turn/menu based gameplay.
But maybe it is just me.
How is FFXIII action-oriented? It's ATB. Unless you started avoiding FF games from FFIV.
YankeeDonB
Member
Lots of gamers want experimentation. But the people who yell the loudest may be those who were very invested in a particular game's approach or style and feel personally aggrieved when those change.
Anyway, not all experiments will be successes, but some of the greatest successes in gaming history have, of course, been experiments.
ethomaz
Banned
FFXIII is action oriented gameplay with single character control... yeap there are the ATB gauge and menus but it far from what I'm saying.
At the end it is bad but FFXV is worst.
If that were the case, Persona 3 would be action-oriented, too. Just because you can control only one character in a battle, it doesn't mean that it's pure action. At its core, FFXIII is still ATB.
NinjaCoachZ
Member
Oh, news to me. Guess I got mixed up then regarding the merger. Thnx.
Sakaguchi point is still true though, right?
ethomaz
Banned
Never played Persona 3...
Persona 4 Golden is god send to me.
FF used to be too but lost its way.
Belatedly if so. For making the movie he was only absent during FF8's development. The FF9, FF10, FF11 triumvirate which he still had a hand in before leaving turned out to be very successful.
A lot of people in this thread are trying too much to highlight the differences. There are similarities and ultimately the biggest one is that these games are made by Square Enix.
Square Enix is a nexus of human talent that provides a distinct way to play and look at their RPGs that is clearly different from Ubisoft, EA, Capcom or Bethesda.
Tabatha sees this idea of team members seeing themselves as special as a problem. While it can be Final Fantasy is clearly a product of these people working together and ensuring they recruit new talent that isn't too different from what the old guard is like.
Square Enix is a nexus of human talent that provides a distinct way to play and look at their RPGs that is clearly different from Ubisoft, EA, Capcom or Bethesda.
Tabatha sees this idea of team members seeing themselves as special as a problem. While it can be Final Fantasy is clearly a product of these people working together and ensuring they recruit new talent that isn't too different from what the old guard is like.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
I was going to suggest Itou but didn't know how you'd think of it.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
FF6 had no unique scenario writer and everyone in the team contributed character ideas and scenarios. For example Yoshinori Kitase wrote Celes, Kaori Tanaka wrote the Figaros, etc. When FF6 was released, Kitase and Tanaka continued to submit ideas to Sakaguchi, this time for FF7, but this was done in the same way as during FF6, i.e. it was just ideas, not full-on production or actual teams in a competition.
And FF9 was always meant to be an FF. You miiiight possibly be thinking of FF10, which started out as an original concept by Yusuke Naora:
But even then, there was no rival teams in a competition for the FF title or anything. Which is sad because that would actually have been badass in a way.
Ironically the only time something like that actually happened is with Square Enix's Fabula Nova Crystallis project.
I'm glad I'm not the only one... In fact last gen, SE's most interesting console release was Nier, which was ballsy as fuck (and naturally had a low metacritic score). Part of what makes oldskool Japanese RPGs, specifically FF, so much more interesting than modern-day open world games (or last-gen linear shooters) is the diversity in their gameplay, type of adventuring (linear as hell, aimless and meandering, linear storyline with lots of side quests, 'stage select'), battle system, upgrade system, etc. Nowadays, so many mainstream games are focus-tested templates. (you'd never see something as daring as FF8 in the big-budget world). Of course, you have indies or smaller projects that spice things up, but if you want experimental gameplay and crazy-ass production values (like me!) you're out of luck.
Who do you mean with "gamers"? No one but a few hardcore FF/JRPG fans thinks so. Not only from my personal anecdotes, but also from many series outsiders and more mainstream gamers do you hear "This will be my first FF! I've always found the battle-system in FFs boring before." in comments under FFXV videos and articles. Do you really think young, modern gamers see FFXV and think "Man, what a shame I can't click through menus first to make my character attack instead of pressing a button while I move and dodge in real-time - this is so unexciting, pre-order cancelled!"?
But besides, what "constant focus on non-menu based battle-systems" do you mean, anyway? The whole FFXIII-saga was menu-based. It just streamlined a lot of the typical ATB busywork, that doesn't actually add any depth or strategy, and shifted focus to macro-managing "roles" in battles. In normal battles it was as button-mashy and in boss battles it was as involving as older FFs. Even LR, FFXIV and FFVIIR (from the looks of it at least), where you can move around in battles, are still menu- and ATB-based (waiting for bars to fill up), but instead of navigating through menus you switch through custom sets of spells and press designated buttons to activate the corresponding spell. Ultimately it's still an abstraction of combating, whether you scroll through menus and choose a command or directly press buttons that relate to certain slots in your sets, which are just a visualization of a "slice" of a menu if you think about it. How is that less strategic or "deep" to you? Honest question, I'm curious.
The only non-menu-based FF so far is FFXV and you have to wait until it's released and the sale numbers and reviews are out before we can judge whether the change of battle-system did alienate enough people to have any impact on its success.
Lately, there's been a whole ton of successful western RPGs which have turn-based or RTS-ish/Infinity Engine style combat, though. And even some of which get console ports! Not to mention there are plenty of Japanese action RPGs out there.
Damn straight.
Spiritwalker
Member
imo the best thing about FF is that it's always re-inventing itself
ethomaz
Banned
You can be right... let't see how FFXV will do.
And about your question... no full control of my party makes the battle system less strategic of "deep".
FF was always a party game and not solo.
The actual battle system of FFXV is the most boring thing I ever see in a FF.
When the single player character you control has access to multitudes of different play-styles and abilities, along with being able to command party members to execute specific actions, how is that less deep or strategic?
You seem more upset at the exclusion of artificial complexity the illusion of depth.
I think having just one controllable character will help put players in the role of Noctis better. And this is a role playing game. It will feel more like you are playing as Noctis rather than playing as 4 individuals. I see the good and bad sides of it but overall I think it was a good decision... Especially since Noctis can use all the weapons and you can still give commands to ya boyz.
ethomaz
Banned
When you have multiples player characters you control with access to multiples of diferentes play-styles and abilities... that is how you make a game deep and strategic with the player choices... not AI control.
I can't see how having full control of your party instead to AI commands makes it artificial complex or illusion of depth. If you think multiples control of party characters lacks complexity or depth then you didn't play a lot of party turn based game lately.
It can be a non-issue for you but for me it is... a big one... I always look to the new FF thinking "let't see they will do now" and left disappointed. my high hopes now are set to remakes/remasters of old games... that is sad.
Hey wow we basically said the same thing at the same time. Haha
I didn't mention AI at all. As Noctis, you have access to multiple sets of abilities by switching weapons on the fly. You can also manually issue commands to your party members to perform specific actions.
Whether multiple types of actions are executed by one character or a party of characters is just an implementation detail. One is not inherently more strategic than the other.
Eh, I think the problem is that they experiment way too late in the process.
US devs would generally prototype and prove out the combat first thing in the project. Whereas everything with XV was focused on graphic development up front, but they're still tinkering with the battle systems and it's getting so close to release.
On-point. Exactly the term I was looking for.
YankeeDonB
Member
Straight up, Nier is totally weird (and in a different way than Taro's previous projects were weird), lots of rough edges, but a truly unique and, in the end, affecting experience that I'd take over 99% of what was in the safe Western AAA space last gen. Of course, Nier wasn't AAA, so in some ways it was less risky.
I understand the potential cost of trying to knock out a new AAA game that doesn't just gently iterate on the last crop of AAA games, but, increasingly, I don't care about the big budget rehashes. Indies are great, but, like you, I also want novel high-production-value experiences and they're few and far between.
ZombiePlatypus
Member
I like that the series gives each game a fresh, blank slate. But as others have stated, the way SE approached this made the series feel like it's been having an identity-crisis. (I guess with the troubles that came after Spirits Within's performance, merger, Japan's transition to HD gaming, and mobile onslaught SE itself was having an identity crisis. So, it's not too surprising that this was reflected in their crown-jewel franchise as well.) It's one thing to have radically fresh sequels in a series, but some of the entries in FF really made it feel like SE didn't have a clear vision or idea as to what the common, defining aspects of a Final Fantasy were and what made an FF an FF.
I still feel like XII and XIII should have either been spin-offs or entirely different IPs, and XI and XVI should have just been their own FF-online parallel franchise.
I appreciate his approach and outlook, but honestly I think SE's inconsistent output, clumsy execution, and willingness to slap the FF brand on anything and everything did away with FF's "untouchable/sacred cow" status more than anything else. The brand and name used to be associated with quality.
Yeah, for me, as someone that loves and grew up with SNES and PSX FF's, the series completely spiraled downward and off the rails starting with FFXI. I would be completely done with the franchise but XV and VIIremake look incredible. I don't think they'll be day-1 purchases, but given how SE's trying to turn over a new leaf, and seemingly putting in effort to bolster the JRPG scene on consoles again I'm staying optimistic. If they play their cards right, I really think they can recover spectacularly from their PS3 era and really become amazing again with FF being a revered series once more.
I still feel like XII and XIII should have either been spin-offs or entirely different IPs, and XI and XVI should have just been their own FF-online parallel franchise.
I appreciate his approach and outlook, but honestly I think SE's inconsistent output, clumsy execution, and willingness to slap the FF brand on anything and everything did away with FF's "untouchable/sacred cow" status more than anything else. The brand and name used to be associated with quality.
Yeah, for me, as someone that loves and grew up with SNES and PSX FF's, the series completely spiraled downward and off the rails starting with FFXI. I would be completely done with the franchise but XV and VIIremake look incredible. I don't think they'll be day-1 purchases, but given how SE's trying to turn over a new leaf, and seemingly putting in effort to bolster the JRPG scene on consoles again I'm staying optimistic. If they play their cards right, I really think they can recover spectacularly from their PS3 era and really become amazing again with FF being a revered series once more.
kinda. Wada used it as the scapegoat to elevate his role within the company and push Sakaguchi out. He then doubled down on exploiting FF and ruining the work culture.
ZombiePlatypus
Member
kinda. Wada used it as the scapegoat to elevate his role within the company and push Sakaguchi out. He then doubled down on exploiting FF and ruining the work culture.
Man, I've yet to read anything about Wada that doesn't make him seem like poison to the company and the franchise.
OmegaDL50
Member
You aren't implying that somehow using turned based combat is archaic and not with the times are you?
Did you know Action RPGs such as Ys, Dragon Slayer, and Hydlide are just as old as Dragon Quest. In fact this kind of affirms the point that using turned based combat as a mechanic is a design decision and definitely not a sign of the times or some kind nonsense that it is a technological limitation that some people try to push.
I don't know many people who say Western RPGs with turned based systems like Divinity Original Sin, Wasteland 2, or even Pillars of Eternity are dated by any stretch. Nor have I heard anyone say the same for an upcoming jRPG such as Persona 5 either, which also is likely to be using a turned based combat system too.
Wether a game is turned based or is real time action has generally always been about a conscious design decision and not some sort of "sign of the times" Both can exist at the same time, and have as such since the early 1980's.
Valkerionseven
Member
This is my biggest complaint with Japanese game development and a huge factor in why their hold on the industry bottomed out.
The assumption here that a majority of people here simply stop playing games at the end of high school and never go back or want to go back really drives a lot of ideas here and it annoys me to no end. There is an audience beyond that age group but Japanese companies in gaming and other media like anime will be damned if they recognize that. In contrast to the west where it revels in the adult market that has more money to burn. It's a nonsense perception projected by the industry itself.
timetokill
Banned
Yep. Most core gamers are terrified of change. When they say they want "change" they usually mean more of what they had before and "better," as ill-defined as that is. Mostly it just means better graphics.
OmegaDL50
Member
It's kind of goes back to a point I've read on GAF somewhere. "Publishers don't want just more money, they want all of the money"
The thing is the trend with mobile is seems to be more about very fast short term gains and less so about the long term, and with the way some mobile games attract large spenders of micro transactions.
So I can see why it might be appealing to a lot of companies to push out these simple, easy to develop games but take in a large amount of money for a small amount work in a short time frame as opposed to putting the time investment of developing a large budget game for 3 to 5 years and barely breaking even.
Which goes to another point of these simple mobile games which are designed to be quick to load, easy to get into, and quick to stop, especially if you are on the go on the way to work, when you don't have a lot of time. With the Japanese workforce using trains and constantly needing to move that kind of factor would be appealing when one may not have the time investment on a traditional gaming avenues.
Still in my experience, I'd say the longer developed and carefully crafted traditional games naturally have a longer appeal to them. The thing is do any of these mobile cash grab games stand the test of time in terms of quality. I mean I don't see myself looking back 5 to 6 years from now and saying "Damn, I sure had a great time playing Candy Crush", As for FFXV though I could see that however.