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Final Fantasy XIV Information Thread | PC Open Beta... yeah it's not really open.
- Thread starter Kagari
- Start date
Clear said:
So, in one comment, rapid job switching is the way the game is meant to be played, but providing a bonus to leveling extra jobs is now a bad thing? The sheer fact that leveling up everything is already extremely penalizing to those with "limited play time."
Either way, the player with limited time will always be penalized against those "no-lifers" so you may as well provide bonuses all the way around instead of penalties. Any other way and you don't even look like a "pro game designer." You look out of touch.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
Paying a monthly fee when you're penalized for playing too much is a retarded concept. It's likely a mistranslation or misunderstanding.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
Errgh...what are they thinking?
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Kintaro said:
So compounding their disadvantage by giving people who have already put mad hours in, extra xp is a good idea?
I think not.
As you level up, the TNL increases right? Therefore, levelling multiple jobs to a low/moderate level will most likely require LESS xp and therefore time spent than taking a single job to a maximal level.
This is important if (and this seems highly probable) fatigue isn't specifically time based but xp/rank based.
After all xp/hr varies drastically depending on whether you are fighting solo or in a group, and SE have specifically and repeatedly stated they want FFXIV to be the solo-friendly game that FFXI never was...
Basically it seems like the idea is that if you want to play super-hardcore you're going to be levelling a lot of jobs concurrently, whereas the casual player can afford to be more specialized as their slower xp rate will not incur the surplus penalties to the same extent.
End result, nobody gets to streak ahead level-wise and create the sort of "elites" that blighted FFXI for a lot of players.
Clear said:
Personally, the current system doesn't make me want to level up other jobs. It makes me want to not play at all. No one likes getting penalized for no reason... well, most people.
If my job I was leveling got a certain number of levels ahead of my other ones, having the ones not being played start building up a rested exp bonus, with a cap, would make me want to level them up. Especially with the horrible guildleve limit in place. I'll take any bonus I can get to lessen the amount of grinding I have to do in the field while waiting 48 hours for my levequests to refresh. Maybe make it so the bonus only builds in 1 hour play sessions, and any long than that it doesn't build.
And I'm not talking about a bonus so big it gets the job up to your highest one. Something small, a level and a half, something that eases the pain the little bit.
Then again, I'm not a game designer.
Either way, a lot of this could be cleared up if SE would stop being SE and actually come out and explain how the hell the surplus system really works. But certain people in the FFXI and FFXIV communities seem to think any kind of explanation is "hand holding".
If this is as real as people are saying, then... wow.
My first thought is that it sounds a lot like the Chinese government-imposed limits, which made me wonder if they're trying to get released in China.
My second thought is that they're trying to assuage PS3 hopefuls by preventing people from getting too far "ahead" of them.
To me, though, it seems like they're trying to maximize the smoothness of the launch and their server purchases by incentivizing people to play less while they gauge demand and build-up server capacity.
It's also trying to make people not stay logged in all hours of the day bazaaring things, I guess? They seemed to really chafe at that in XI. But I guess if you switch to a crafting or harvesting job before idling it won't matter?
But let's get into the system...
To start, I'm being punished for running around, not fighting? So I have to do quests as crafting/harvesting classes for the talking to people phase, and then change back for the fighting parts? Will that let me bypass large swaths of this?
I'm not against some kind of limits on this, per se, but 1 hour seems... beyond extreme. Even as easy as it is to get around in XIV compared to XI, it's easy to spend an hour running around town talking to people for quests. Number of battles/kills would be a much more reasonable way to do things, if you had to do something like this.
And while I'd prefer there to be bonuses instead of penalties, I think doing something like making only Physical Level be affected by this, letting people rank up classes to their heart's content. This would probably incentivize party play, too, as people would try to maximize their Physical Exp. during the window, and then they'd want/need to party in order to rank up further because they wouldn't be getting bonus stats as quickly.
I mean, right now it seems like it'd be very easy to hit the physical level cap, and in many ways Physical Level is just a bonus. Has there been any word from people who have hit the Physical Level cap, and what happens? I assume any exp. after that is just lost, but confirmation would be good.
My first thought is that it sounds a lot like the Chinese government-imposed limits, which made me wonder if they're trying to get released in China.
My second thought is that they're trying to assuage PS3 hopefuls by preventing people from getting too far "ahead" of them.
To me, though, it seems like they're trying to maximize the smoothness of the launch and their server purchases by incentivizing people to play less while they gauge demand and build-up server capacity.
It's also trying to make people not stay logged in all hours of the day bazaaring things, I guess? They seemed to really chafe at that in XI. But I guess if you switch to a crafting or harvesting job before idling it won't matter?
But let's get into the system...
To start, I'm being punished for running around, not fighting? So I have to do quests as crafting/harvesting classes for the talking to people phase, and then change back for the fighting parts? Will that let me bypass large swaths of this?
I'm not against some kind of limits on this, per se, but 1 hour seems... beyond extreme. Even as easy as it is to get around in XIV compared to XI, it's easy to spend an hour running around town talking to people for quests. Number of battles/kills would be a much more reasonable way to do things, if you had to do something like this.
And while I'd prefer there to be bonuses instead of penalties, I think doing something like making only Physical Level be affected by this, letting people rank up classes to their heart's content. This would probably incentivize party play, too, as people would try to maximize their Physical Exp. during the window, and then they'd want/need to party in order to rank up further because they wouldn't be getting bonus stats as quickly.
I mean, right now it seems like it'd be very easy to hit the physical level cap, and in many ways Physical Level is just a bonus. Has there been any word from people who have hit the Physical Level cap, and what happens? I assume any exp. after that is just lost, but confirmation would be good.
Clear said:
Blighted? XIV's system will make FFXI's "elite" problem look like a walk in the park. For example, if you don't have this trait from a rank 40 Archer (that is used across classes) for your rank 40 Marauder, GTFO. So on and so forth.
All an xp penalty will do is make it harder on everyone but the casual will suffer as the hardcore will just power through it.
Penalizing your players for playing is shitty design.
Halfmunch said:XP fatigue would be kinda alright if all the other classes where all fun to play.:lol
I just don't like the current fisherman class in the game (and the other classes that attack by throwing rocks).
Hopefully this changes before retail.
I agree. I want to pickaxe rats to death. SE, make this happen!
demosthenes
Member
Halfmunch said:XP fatigue would be kinda alright if all the other classes where all fun to play.:lol
I just don't like the current fisherman class in the game (and the other classes that attack by throwing rocks
Hopefully this changes before retail.
Wait what? The non fighting classes fight by throwing rocks..........?
demosthenes
Member
madara said:
I remember Vanguard: Saga of Heroes :lol
notworksafe
Member
Getting flashbacks to Galaxy's NGE...Takuan said:
Alex
Member
Wow never launched with fatigue. It was killed in beta. Hopefully here too. Make the game better for normal schedules by removing timesinks, not punishing players.
Lots of modern mmos & persistent state games have made huge strides in slimming down schedules even at the high end while maintaining challenge & content. No reason square shouldn't work towards the same, but they're out if touch with modern design. Still going back to the bone dry EQ well.
Lots of modern mmos & persistent state games have made huge strides in slimming down schedules even at the high end while maintaining challenge & content. No reason square shouldn't work towards the same, but they're out if touch with modern design. Still going back to the bone dry EQ well.
demosthenes said:
Yeah and so far I know miner gets a throwing skill power up (next thrown attack stuns), so that can help with throwing weapons from other classes.
Even though the surplus/fatigue stuff hasnt been properly explained (to my knowledge, at least where surplus goes) im sure if its anything that really sucks, people will feedback the hell out of it during open beta.
This feature might be killed off before release with enough feedback complaints in open beta, if it turns out to be really bad.
notworksafe
Member
Don't let Londa hear you say that! I'd wait til Open Beta to decide though.Trojita said:
RaySpencer
Member
Isnt this XP thing and the WoW rest XP the exact same thing just explained in different ways?
Its just like saying WoWs rest XP is your "normal" leveling speed, and when you play too much you run out of rest XP, and have to suffer through a lower leveling speed. Its the same thing, just set up in a way that makes FFXIV system sound like a penalty, and WoWs sound like a bonus.
WoW - 100xp per kill, or OMG special bonus 200xp per kill if you dont play that often!
FF - 200xp per kill, or OHNOES only 100xp per kill if you play to much!
same thing, different wording.
Edit: reworded things.
Its just like saying WoWs rest XP is your "normal" leveling speed, and when you play too much you run out of rest XP, and have to suffer through a lower leveling speed. Its the same thing, just set up in a way that makes FFXIV system sound like a penalty, and WoWs sound like a bonus.
WoW - 100xp per kill, or OMG special bonus 200xp per kill if you dont play that often!
FF - 200xp per kill, or OHNOES only 100xp per kill if you play to much!
same thing, different wording.
Edit: reworded things.
AtomskEater
Member
Nobiru said:
To me it seems like WOW's is a bonus. After it wears off you will gain the same constant EXP as the next guy who is playing, for as long as you want.
With FFXIV the EXP you gain will dip below what it should be, forcing you to change classes/log off or whatever alleviates it. Some people report that it pretty much becomes impossible to level classes hit with surplus EXP at all after a certain point, while you'll never have a problem leveling in WOW assuming you're fighting in the appropriate areas.
RaySpencer
Member
AtomskEater said:
If thats what really happens then that sucks. I understand the mind games behind it all sounding different, and I agree that getting a bonus is better than being punished, but they just seemed like they were the same thing, and I wasnt sure why the informed players of GAF would give a shit, but if its as you say, then thats quite a bit different.
Either way its a bad idea to word it like they do.
Alex
Member
Rest EXP isn't even a factor in WoW, even for laid back players, just a small boon for the amazingly casual (once a weekish) or for rarely played alts.
Let's wait and see if it's a legitimate punishment here, it may boil over to nothing, it may get slammed with the same awful feedback if otherwise.
That aside, I still think their entire concept behind forcing you to job swap left and right to avoid cooldowns, penalties, etc, is very stupid and speaks very little in confidence to their game content. (also, the interface and support systems for it are kind of trash for this kind of concept)
There's much better ways to pad even limited content than by telling the player base what they can and cannot do.
They seemed to have lost the way from XI where being able to swap jobs on one character was of great benefit and highly creative, now it's just for all the wrong reasons, they're really milking it.
Let's wait and see if it's a legitimate punishment here, it may boil over to nothing, it may get slammed with the same awful feedback if otherwise.
That aside, I still think their entire concept behind forcing you to job swap left and right to avoid cooldowns, penalties, etc, is very stupid and speaks very little in confidence to their game content. (also, the interface and support systems for it are kind of trash for this kind of concept)
There's much better ways to pad even limited content than by telling the player base what they can and cannot do.
They seemed to have lost the way from XI where being able to swap jobs on one character was of great benefit and highly creative, now it's just for all the wrong reasons, they're really milking it.
Alex said:
What's extra good about the job swapping is that they have the equally draconian system of assigning stat points and a long period of time required to properly reassign your stats. And they expect us to swap jobs regularly. Hope you like being melee only or caster only, or totally gimped. Ugh.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
LaneDS said:
Yeah I want my name. XD
I'll play the free month but I'm not going to worry too much about it until it's actually ready for mass consumption.
Teknoman said:
The crafting classes seem strange to me... take the "ship tutorial experience" for example. Some sea creatures attack the boat and you have to kill 3 to advance the story.
You throw a rock that does 1 to 2 damage per hit. The creatures that attack the boat have over 1000 health...
eventually some NPC's help you finish off the creature, but I find it kind of odd that... with out the NPC's help you cannot defeat the creatures on your own (while the other classes can).
This could possibly change in beta too, but its just not fun.
I think FFXIV can be a great game, combat is fun with the Disciples of War and Magic classes. Gladiator with shields look awesome.
Its probably way late, but I just want to buy a fishing rod and start fishing as a Gladiator. This way if a monster runs up on me while I'm fishing, I just put the rod up and start kicking-ass :lol (currently you cannot change classes while in combat).
AtomskEater
Member
Should clarify that I never got a chance to play beta long enough to experience surplus exp; this is what I hear other beta testers describe. So hopefully for open beta there will be more information about this system to clear up any misunderstandings. Trying to keep an open mind because I want to like this but SE's design choices seem baffling.Nobiru said:
The fatigue system is lame, but it's nowhere near as terrible as that article is speculating. I played beta phase 3 every day for two weeks, an hour or two on work nights and more on the weekend. I didn't encounter any surplus until after about a week of playing, and when it took effect it reduced my exp by around 10% and was gone the next time I signed in.
I'm not defending surplus, because it needs to go, but saying your exp drops 25% after playing a class for one hour and 100% after four hours is just flat-out wrong.
I'm not defending surplus, because it needs to go, but saying your exp drops 25% after playing a class for one hour and 100% after four hours is just flat-out wrong.
Micromegas
Member
The last couple pages of this thread are like a microcosm of FFXI's biggest problem by far: the community.
Already we've got gross misunderstandings, apologists defending something they don't even understand themselves, and people pontificating on how the game is meant to be played.
Already we've got gross misunderstandings, apologists defending something they don't even understand themselves, and people pontificating on how the game is meant to be played.
Micromegas said:
Sounds like it's more of a problem of SE being SE and not explaining features fully to me.
You don't put shit like this in your game and then not tell anyone about it for a month, and then use an interview to spill the beans, leaving it up to fans to translate the interview to English.
The moment this went into the game they should have had an explanation of it on the beta site, in the manual section detailing what it is and how it comes into effect translated officially by the company.
http://ffxiv.zam.com/story.html?story=23080
Oh he is tired of speculation going on about surplus, well thats too bad, why doesnt he explain how the fuck that stuff works instead of whining about those rumors, further proof on how out of touch these guys are.Tanaka Tires of "Fatigue" Rumors said:
Alex
Member
What can people do but speculate? We're less than a month off and the entire process has been completely cryptic and uncomfortable for everyone involved.
The beta hasn't been a very exciting or fun process for most folks. Nor was it utilized very well. Not much was fixed, no real communication went out. I mean we've been in this for ages now and they were surprised at Gamescom that everyone was boggling at the lack of mouse controls, among other things. They really didn't take any actual feedback from the entire process.
It's one thing to hide content, that is very reasonable (although I still don't think was a goal of theirs to keep secrets, I just don't think they had much that was actually concrete and playable), but it's another to hide all of the information from the game systems and not discuss almost anything with the press, your testers, etc.
MMO's are not about auteur design or even team based projects as a sole means, it takes a community to forge and reinforce, this is something that has been especially sad to see Square just not learn, it's like their taking the same Everquest focused inspiration from XI and have only picked up new clues from the completely miserable non-FFXI MMO market in Japan. Grindfests, F2P mechanics in a pay game, etc.
The beta hasn't been a very exciting or fun process for most folks. Nor was it utilized very well. Not much was fixed, no real communication went out. I mean we've been in this for ages now and they were surprised at Gamescom that everyone was boggling at the lack of mouse controls, among other things. They really didn't take any actual feedback from the entire process.
It's one thing to hide content, that is very reasonable (although I still don't think was a goal of theirs to keep secrets, I just don't think they had much that was actually concrete and playable), but it's another to hide all of the information from the game systems and not discuss almost anything with the press, your testers, etc.
MMO's are not about auteur design or even team based projects as a sole means, it takes a community to forge and reinforce, this is something that has been especially sad to see Square just not learn, it's like their taking the same Everquest focused inspiration from XI and have only picked up new clues from the completely miserable non-FFXI MMO market in Japan. Grindfests, F2P mechanics in a pay game, etc.
Honestly if the game goes with exp penalties this harsh in full retail I'm passing on the game. Which is freaking sad since this was my most anticipated game in so so many years, but I'm not about to bend over and grab my ankles for SE anymore.
If they don't change it before the full retail then I don't expect this game to do well in a number of ways. Low sales, low reviews, poor support from SE afterward, and a non existent player base. They'll scratch their heads and wonder why, and when they finally stop being stubborn and dumb 2 years+ down the line, then I might give this game a look over again. By that time though better games will have been released worth our time and our money.
Again though this is only if they seriously are that daft and inept to listen to feedback being screamed from rooftops at them.
If they don't change it before the full retail then I don't expect this game to do well in a number of ways. Low sales, low reviews, poor support from SE afterward, and a non existent player base. They'll scratch their heads and wonder why, and when they finally stop being stubborn and dumb 2 years+ down the line, then I might give this game a look over again. By that time though better games will have been released worth our time and our money.
Again though this is only if they seriously are that daft and inept to listen to feedback being screamed from rooftops at them.
I like this part:
Exactly. Communicate what it is and how it's supposed to function so we can test it and declare whether it's working or not. I'd like to assume that's why the alpha/beta testing started so early on in the game's final year of development... It's rare to have MMO betas these days be more than just free demos, so for them to have squandered the opportunity to really seek feedback on some of the more cryptic systems seems unfortunate to me.
Exactly. Communicate what it is and how it's supposed to function so we can test it and declare whether it's working or not. I'd like to assume that's why the alpha/beta testing started so early on in the game's final year of development... It's rare to have MMO betas these days be more than just free demos, so for them to have squandered the opportunity to really seek feedback on some of the more cryptic systems seems unfortunate to me.