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[Napoleonthechimp]

(1) Let's say you don't pay the $2,000/year fee for health insurance.

(2) You get into an accident and are rocked with a $500,000 fee.

(3) Should the insurance company retroactively "fine" you $2,000 or any other amount and then pay you the required fee as if you were insured ahead of time?


If this were the case everyone would not buy pre-accident insurance and would opt for post-accident insurances.. and then the insurance industry would not exist because it doesn't make sense for them to when there are no margins. And then all that's left would be the $500,000 bill to every single individual that incurs it.

When you don't pay for coverage you are risking it. Everything else is just baby tears.


Forcing necessary fees through tax would help. It's just that more Americans need to come to terms with the fact that taxes are necessary for public services.

One person's medical issue won't endanger the lives of everyone around him or her. That is the difference.

Besides why couldn't they just charge the home owner for services rendered like they do in the US's assbackwards health system? I'm sure the person who's house burned down would rather pay a few thousand dollars than lose everything he owns.

 

[Jex]

Holy shit.

It's like some Ankh Morpork guild shit.

1st thing that came to mind. Maybe they set the fires themselves.

I guess this is one of those things that really shouldn't be privatised.

 

[hsukardi]

This only shows that people aren't compatible with this kind of freedom, we need socialism when it comes to basic services like this. Why the hell would this fee be optional in the first place?
The mayor of the city should just make a deal about with South Fulton and collectively pay for firefighter protection of his entire city. Just increase the taxes to cover this cost and everyone will be better off.

Yes.

This also means that strictly, in this situation, the behaviors performed by the people involved were not necessarily wrong. The policy got it wrong though.

Imagine a multi-block area of non-payers. The fire grows to consume the entire region and by then controlling it would demand much much more than the $75 they get per adjacent lot.

Again, what is needed is competent governance to ensure that the dependencies are sorted out. At the end of the day, basic emergency services especially those that involve endangerment of other individuals should be mandated necessary and made available out of tax payments. Something like this has to be designed:

- Fires = may endanger others, necessary tax
- Personal health going to hell = may not endanger others, not necessary, opt-in
- Personal health with contagious disease = may endanger others, necessary tax



Public good and honor is good n' all.. but reality is that there are also places where doctors and nurses do carry out strikes and leave patients for dead while protesting for more pay. Such is life.

 

[Gouty]

Imagine a multi-block area of non-payers. The fire grows to consume the entire region and by then controlling it would demand much much more than the $75 they get per adjacent lot.

If this particular county featured dense, highly populated areas, they’d be able to afford their own fire department.

 

[hsukardi]

I see no argument here, only elitism of its most common form: the one that comes with age.

Explain to me why at the very least the fire department cant just put the fire out and charge through the roof for not paying the insurance. Ultimately the person will most likely save money, the fire department will get paid and the entire surrounding area is no longer at risk of burning down.

And I see no argument here from you, but liberal bullshitness that has no sustainability.

Because there's no policy, they don't know what to do. Hell, it may even be illegal for them to put out the fire and charge through the roof. Remember the US is a place where, if someone is bleeding, injured and unconscious, another person who comes forward to attend to the victim and causes infection from physical contact can be SUED for complications/fees incurred from the subsequent hospitalization. This has happened.

And really, stave off the ad-hominems. They don't make your arguments any stronger.

 

[Pikelet]

Forcing necessary fees through tax would help. It's just that more Americans need to come to terms with the fact that taxes are necessary for public services.

Didn't see this before i posted last, but yes, this does seem to be the ideal solution.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

So what you're saying is, potentially life-saving services should not be privatized and left up to optional financial discretion?

Sounds like commie talk to me.

 

[Gouty]

I see no argument here, only elitism of its most common form: the one that comes with age.

Explain to me why at the very least the fire department cant just put the fire out and charge through the roof for not paying the insurance. Ultimately the person will most likely save money, the fire department will get paid and the entire surrounding area is no longer at risk of burning down.

It has been explained several times in this thread. How exactly do you purpose the fire department collects this fine when the resident can’t afford to pay it? Secondly, if you encourage people to not pay, but only charge them in the event of an emergency how do you purpose they stay operational during the periods of inactivity?

 

[JoeBoy101]

To some of the jackasses saying, "Meh, he should have paid, I'm with the firefighters."

My house was destroyed by a house fire a couple of years ago. I lost 95% of my belongings and nearly my dog. This fire originated at my NEIGHBOR'S house and spread to mine before the fire department could get it under control. Ultimately, this fire claimed his house, my house, significantly damaged his other neighbor's house, and cause landscape and siding damage to 8-10 houses across the street.

Firefighters put out fucking fires. If they start playing games of which and whose fires to put out based on whether they paid something, that's an easy way to have a fire get completely out of control. You know, harm the public. They get HIRED and paid a salary to do that very job. And I know I pay at least a couple of fees every year for this service. They're called State Income Tax and Property Taxes.

 

[Dead Man]

And I see no argument here from you, but liberal bullshitness that has no sustainability.

Because there's no policy, they don't know what to do. Hell, it may even be illegal for them to put out the fire and charge through the roof. Remember the US is a place where, if someone is bleeding, injured and unconscious, another person who comes forward to attend to the victim and causes infection from physical contact can be SUED for complications/fees incurred from the subsequent hospitalization. This has happened.

And really, stave off the ad-hominems. They don't make your arguments any stronger.

Oh. You're one of those people. Why insert a statement you have no idea of the accuracy of (in bold, no less) just to make your position appear more solid than it is? Oh, guess I sort of answered that.

 

[KevinCow]

To some of the jackasses saying, "Meh, he should have paid, I'm with the firefighters."

My house was destroyed by a house fire a couple of years ago. I lost 95% of my belongings and nearly my dog. This fire originated at my NEIGHBOR'S house and spread to mine before the fire department could get it under control. Ultimately, this fire claimed his house, my house, significantly damaged his other neighbor's house, and cause landscape and siding damage to 8-10 houses across the street.

Firefighters put out fucking fires. If they start playing games of which and whose fires to put out based on whether they paid something, that's an easy way to have a fire get completely out of control. You know, harm the public. They get HIRED and paid a salary to do that very job. And I know I pay at least a couple of fees every year for this service. They're called State Income Tax and Property Taxes.

Shut the hell up you fucking COMMIE NAZI SOCIALIST.

 

[Gouty]

And I know I pay at least a couple of fees every year for this service. They're called State Income Tax and Property Taxes.

Thats the problem. The service they provide wasn't being paid for. How would you have felt if you found out your home burnt because the fire department was busy contending with someone else's home that hadn't paid any taxes for the service?

 

[The Faceless Master]

To some of the jackasses saying, "Meh, he should have paid, I'm with the firefighters."

My house was destroyed by a house fire a couple of years ago. I lost 95% of my belongings and nearly my dog. This fire originated at my NEIGHBOR'S house and spread to mine before the fire department could get it under control. Ultimately, this fire claimed his house, my house, significantly damaged his other neighbor's house, and cause landscape and siding damage to 8-10 houses across the street.

Firefighters put out fucking fires. If they start playing games of which and whose fires to put out based on whether they paid something, that's an easy way to have a fire get completely out of control. You know, harm the public. They get HIRED and paid a salary to do that very job. And I know I pay at least a couple of fees every year for this service. They're called State Income Tax and Property Taxes.

if you read the article, you would understand that these people don't pay taxes to the municipality that the fire department service, hence the $75 fee for coverage.

 

[Pikelet]

Hell, it may even be illegal for them to put out the fire and charge through the roof.

If so then the system remains broken. As was said before, here in Australia we can get ambulance insurance or choose to risk the large penalty.

It has been explained several times in this thread. How exactly do you purpose the fire department collects this fine when the resident can’t afford to pay it? Secondly, if you encourage people to not pay, but only charge them in the event of an emergency how do you purpose they stay operational during the periods of inactivity?

You are still encouraging a person to pay for the insurance if they will get slapped with a large fine in the case of a fire. They can also adjust the insurance and the fine cost to suit the numbers if need be.

Secondly, a quick google search of US fire department statistics from 04 (http://www.usfa.dhs.gov/downloads/pdf/tfrs/v7i4.pdf) shows that fire incidents are surprisingly constant throughout the year, meaning there isn't really a period of inactivity.

I concede that slapping a huge fine and putting out the damn thing is not ideal, but i think it is better than what occurred in this story.

 

[Korey]

Hindsight is 20/20.

As far as I know, that is the whole point of insurance.

 

[The Faceless Master]

some people seem to think the fire dept just sat there the whole time. the fire department only showed up when the second person (who paid the fee) called them because it was starting to spread. so they put out the taxpayer's fire and left.

 

[Bleepey]

Fucking free loader tried to get away with not paying, boo fucking hoo. I mean imagine if they made such arguments in the healthcare debate then.....

I give up. It's sad, but i can sort of see why the firefighters did it. If they don't take a stand some people will freeload. I personally think in some situations shit should be forced like say people paying taxes to pay for the police, fire department or even healthcare services. But then again i am just a crazy socialist from the UK.

 

[Shanadeus]

some people seem to think the fire dept just sat there the whole time. the fire department only showed up when the second person (who paid the fee) called them because it was starting to spread. so they put out the taxpayer's fire and left.

That's even worse.
There was a fire progressing yet they didn't send any firefighters out to at least keep an eye on it?

Holy shit this is a disaster.

 

[wormstrangler]

In Australia if you don't have $100 Ambulance cover they'll charge you the whole cost of the ambulance ride.

that's harsh but fair. This American thing is just bullshit.

In QLD we pay for Ambulance cover (including medi-helicopter) through our electricity bills.

 

[hsukardi]

Oh. You're one of those people. Why insert a statement you have no idea of the accuracy of (in bold, no less) just to make your position appear more solid than it is? Oh, guess I sort of answered that.

Yeah, that's real useful. That really contributed to the conversation.

If so then the system remains broken. As was said before, here in Australia we can get ambulance insurance or choose to risk the large penalty.

Yes, I don't disagree with that.

 

[Dead Man]

Yeah, that's real useful. That really contributed to the conversation.

As have you. Please refrain from posting unsubstantiated possibilities as if they have any bearing on the facts of the event.

 

[hsukardi]

As have you. Please refrain from posting unsubstantiated possibilities as if they have any bearing on the facts of the event.

I disagree with your assertion, but I'll leave it at that.

Meanwhile, you can feel free to join the conversation productively.

 

[Cereal KiIIer]

True American heroes.

 

[ArjanN]

"That's a nice house you've got there, would be a shame if something were to happen to it..."

 

[turnbuckle]

some people seem to think the fire dept just sat there the whole time. the fire department only showed up when the second person (who paid the fee) called them because it was starting to spread. so they put out the taxpayer's fire and left.

Yeah, that's a hell of a lot worse.

 

[The Faceless Master]

About three hours after the fire began, Mr Cranick's son Timothy allegedly arrived at the South Fulton fire station and asked for Mr Wilds, the fire chief.

It is alleged that when Mr Wilds came forward and asked if he could help, Mr Cranick punched him. "He just cold-cocked him," Mr Crocker said.

Mr Cranick allegedly had to be pulled off Mr Wilds by other firefighters, after having knocked him to the ground. The 44-year-old is said to have been taken to hospital after injuring his hand committing the alleged assault.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rning-house-over-unpaid-subscription-fee.html

more info on the fight. the son sucker punched the fire chief, the whole family is pure class!

That's even worse.
There was a fire progressing yet they didn't send any firefighters out to at least keep an eye on it?

Holy shit this is a disaster.

so they should send people out on a non-life-threatening call to a non-taxpayer for a potential response when they have their own city residents to potentially worry about?

 

[Shanadeus]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rning-house-over-unpaid-subscription-fee.html

more info on the fight. the son sucker punched the fire chief, the whole family is pure class!


so they should send people out on a non-life-threatening call to a non-taxpayer for a potential response when they have their own city residents to potentially worry about?

How can they know that it is a non-life-threatening situation when they have no one on sight to estimate the danger of the fire?
No matter how you put it they've acted extremely irresponsibly here, and the policy really needs to change.

 

[Korey]

How can they know that it is a non-life-threatening situation when they have no one on sight to estimate the danger of the fire?
No matter how you put it they've acted extremely irresponsibly here, and the policy really needs to change.

Or alternatively, the three households that the policy applies to could pay the $75.

 

[fastford58]

Fuck yo house...buy another one you rich motherfucker.

 

[Gouty]

Fuck yo house...buy another one you rich motherfucker.

Sweet Jesus.

 

[The Faceless Master]

How can they know that it is a non-life-threatening situation when they have no one on sight to estimate the danger of the fire?
No matter how you put it they've acted extremely irresponsibly here, and the policy really needs to change.

nobody was in the house, so it wasn't life-threatening.

Fuck yo house...buy another one you rich motherfucker.

the homeowners themselves weren't even that upset about the house, i guess they at least paid for their homeowner's insurance.

 

[Javaman]

Or alternatively, the three households that the policy applies to could pay the $75.

You can bet that there's going to be a lot more people paying the $75 now!

 

[Pikelet]

"I thought they'd come out and put it out, even if you hadn't paid your $75, but I was wrong."

hrm

 

[Shanadeus]

nobody was in the house, so it wasn't life-threatening.

I'm talking about the risks of the fire spreading and threating the lives of others in the surrounding area, which happens often enough for it to be irresponsible for firefighters to ignore a fire.

Houses aren't isolated little worlds where fires are contained and only affect those who haven't paid the fee.

 

[captmorgan]

This is how I think it should have went down.

House on fire, no insurance.
Firefighters show up put out fire.
Charge homeowner 10 000 dollars for man hours and equipment rental (truck, hoses, ect..)
Homeowners end up having to sell home to pay bill.

 

[Deleted member 1235]

The homeowner, Gene Cranick, said he offered to pay whatever it would take for firefighters to put out the flames, but was told it was too late. They wouldn't do anything to stop his house from burning.

hangon, I've heard from firefighters that if a house fire goes too long it can't be fought and has to burn out.

Is that what happened here?

 

[jorma]

People with no health insurance who catch cancer or aids, do the doctors just stand back and watch as they slowly die?

That's pretty cold. Either way, running these services with insurance rather than with tax funds does seem like the inferior choice.

 

[R2D4]

I'm talking about the risks of the fire spreading and threating the lives of others in the surrounding area, which happens often enough for it to be irresponsible for firefighters to ignore a fire.

Houses aren't isolated little worlds where fires are contained and only affect those who haven't paid the fee.

If it was in a rural area as most of the US is then yeah the house would be an isolated little world.

 

[dejay]

nobody was in the house, so it wasn't life-threatening.

What if the house was near a forest, in extremely hot, dry, windy conditions? This is what happens to rural and semi-urban neighbourhoods in such conditions...

Would you advocate doing nothing in such a situation?

 

[R2D4]

What if the house was near a forest, in extremely hot, dry, windy conditions? This is what happens to rural and semi-urban neighbourhoods in such conditions...


Would you advocate doing nothing in such a situation?

Uh the fire department was there.

 

[smurfx]

hangon, I've heard from firefighters that if a house fire goes too long it can't be fought and has to burn out.

Is that what happened here?

no the fire started 2 hours before the house burned down and the homeowner called up the fire department begging them to stop the fire before it spread to his house.

 

[dejay]

Uh the fire department was there.

My contention is, as is that of Shanadeus, that it's better to fight a fire rather than risking embers setting alight other property.

From the article:

This fire went on for hours because garden hoses just wouldn't put it out. It wasn't until that fire spread to a neighbor's property, that anyone would respond.

Instead of pro-actively fighting a fire and preventing it from spreading to the neighbour, who has paid for the fire coverage, they waited until the fire was actually destroying property of the covered neighbour. That's not a very good service.

Now what if conditions were worse and instead of the neighbours property catching on fire, several properties, or the whole neighbourhood went up?

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

This story is a prime example of why everyone needs to watch Robocop. It was the entire message of the movie!

 

[Kite]

To some of the jackasses saying, "Meh, he should have paid, I'm with the firefighters."

My house was destroyed by a house fire a couple of years ago. I lost 95% of my belongings and nearly my dog. This fire originated at my NEIGHBOR'S house and spread to mine before the fire department could get it under control. Ultimately, this fire claimed his house, my house, significantly damaged his other neighbor's house, and cause landscape and siding damage to 8-10 houses across the street.

Firefighters put out fucking fires. If they start playing games of which and whose fires to put out based on whether they paid something, that's an easy way to have a fire get completely out of control. You know, harm the public. They get HIRED and paid a salary to do that very job. And I know I pay at least a couple of fees every year for this service. They're called State Income Tax and Property Taxes.

Learn how to read, the fire fights showed up when the fire threatened to spread to the neighbor's house who had paid the $75 fee. And they did their job. I don't see why firefighters should put out fires they aren't paid to do so if no one's life is in danger. The family in this story took a gamble by not paying the fee and they lost. Boo hoo

 

[Shanadeus]

If it was in a rural area as most of the US is then yeah the house would be an isolated little world.

Forest fires.

 

[jorma]

Why WON'T the US do this?

Because one of those new countries would be headed by a Sarah Palin armed with nukes.

 

[Korey]

My contention is, as is that of Shanadeus, that it's better to fight a fire rather than risking embers setting alight other property.

From the article:


Instead of pro-actively fighting a fire and preventing it from spreading to the neighbour, who has paid for the fire coverage, they waited until the fire was actually destroying property of the covered neighbour. That's not a very good service.

Now what if conditions were worse and instead of the neighbours property catching on fire, several properties, or the whole neighbourhood went up?

This is where the fire took place: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...148,-88.841629&spn=0.063687,0.132093&t=h&z=14

You can see its proximity to the city. It's out where nobody else is. He probably has at most one neighbor.

Forest fires.

Why don't you let the firefighters worry about that, and you stop worrying your little swiss self an ocean and a continent away.

 

[Ceres]

I'm surprised homeowner's insurance wouldn't require they pay that fee to get coverage.

 

[Meier]

Houses aren't isolated little worlds where fires are contained and only affect those who haven't paid the fee.

It has been mentioned several times that this was in a rural area. Without densely packed in buildings, there is presumably less risk for the fire to spread out of control even without an immediate response.

 

[Lebron]

So basically they didn't pay and got burned? That's some mighty fine irony.