Sometimes comics are the stupidest things to ever exist.
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First Look at Batman: The Killing Joke (?)
- Thread starter Penguin
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ElBoxyBrown
Banned
You can do that in a comic but the story is still legendary to the public.
They still might tone it down. It's a sensitive issue with fans.
illmatic22
Banned
Hamill and Conroy YES!
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
I don't want to turn this into a big thing but a large group of people do not like Barbara's role in this story. They hate that it defines her character. The comparison with Gordon isn't really similar when looking at the role of female characters in comic has been.
Yup, he's said he's game if the right projects come along to take it to new places. He's just done doing long series. Been there done that sort of thing.
CloudyTuba
Member
It's about time. I was starting to wonder about this project. I heard about it a couple years ago, then it took like a whole year for it to get announced, now it's been almost another year.
Wasn't it already announced that Mark and Kevin were coming back?
Anyway it's good to know it's on its way.
Wasn't it already announced that Mark and Kevin were coming back?
Anyway it's good to know it's on its way.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
The current Batgirl writers want Barbara to
move past TKJ and stop referencing that event. They did still leave it open for interpretation. TKJ happened if you wanted it to happen and it didn't if you didn't want it to happen. In the end there gonna stop talking about it.
Is this a joke. Are you joking.
Specifically, are you joking that you think these things are similar.
Clearly. Honestly, it just comes off as pathetic. Just as bad as this resurgence of "Harley Quinn breaking free of the Joker and becoming a strong, independent, clown-themed anti-hero" nonsense. It's the perfect example of understandable feminist ideas completely messing up characterization and story.
CenturionKei
Banned
No.
Like people complain abouy how Barbra is handled. Think its sexist. Well...Joker does the same brutal things to all of Batmans apprentices. Remeber what he did to Todd? Tortured him to death with a crowbar, and blew him up. Tortured Gordon until he nearly went crazy. Thing is i think its in charactet for Joker to do what he did to Barbra.
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
I can't see how you can think that.
It was always weird that it came up so often in her solo stuff lately anyway.She had worked past a lot of it in the 90s and 00s in stuff like Birds of Prey. Hopefully now writers can do something more with her other than having her fixate on a moment from 30 years ago.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
In a world where Cool World didn't ruin his career maybe.
Secret Fawful
Member
Absolutely. I'm not going to judge the whole movie from one still, and I'll watch it to make any final judgments, but if it's going for the same direct-to-DVD look all of DC animation has had the past few years, I don't think it will stay timeless or last. You can do memorable low-budget animation.
Most Ralph Bakshi movies that I can find information on had budgets around 1.2 million dollars or LESS. Flashpoint Paradox had a budget of 3.5 MILLION DOLLARS! Now, it's probable that the costs of producing 2D animated movies, even low-budget ones, will have increased over the decades, but Bakshi recently made a 22 minute short film for 174 thousand dollars. Batman: Bad Blood also had a budget of 3.5 million dollars.
...
So let's look at 1.2 million dollars and rotoscoped animation vs. 3.5 million and DC's current style.
1.2 million from the 80s:
NSFW but smooth animation
3.5 million from this decade:
You can do as much with a smaller budget and style to boot, though it's probably a lot harder too. Also, I'm not arguing that it should specifically BE Bakshi, but I picked him as an example because of the content and neon, grimy, but realistic look of the story.
Corpsepyre
Banned
Fuck yes.
Was hoping for a slightly different-looking animation there, but all's cool. This will be epic! May Alan Moore cry tears!
Was hoping for a slightly different-looking animation there, but all's cool. This will be epic! May Alan Moore cry tears!
Ninja Scooter
Member
I know it's just one still but I don't like the art direction. Brian Bolland's art in the comic was some of the best of all time. Wish they would have tried harder to emulate it rather than do the standard simple/angular DCU style.
I understand why they feel the need to erase it from Bab's history. The fact that Moore was even allowed to cripple her in the first place was because of clearly sexist people working at DC. But it's too late to change it now. It's been deeply entrenched in DC lore for years, and attempts to retroactively remove it come off as sad.
It's important to the character of the Joker because it adds to his history as Batman's most personal nemesis. He's known as the villain that killed Robin and paralyzed Batgirl, and that positions him as the antagonist of the Bat family in general. It's something their stories touch on time and time again. Other villains target the city, the Joker targets the Batman. He's the one who goes after his soul, and Barbara and Jason are part of the collateral to that.
Yes, the only reason why the Joker could kill Jason and paralyze Babs was because fans hated Jason (they VOTED for his death) and the DC editors were sexist, but these things led to the creation of one of the most iconic dynamics in comics.
Towards Bab's story specifically, it screws up her personal arc about overcoming the trauma if it turned out it never happened it all. It's way too cute, too convenient. Keep in mind I know that the Oracle story happened in spite of TKJ and not because of it (DC was OK with just forgetting about Barbara in general), but it still doesn't take away from the fact that she became a great character in her own right afterwards.
As for Harley, I can write at length about why her character basically sucks now, but I'll keep it simple. They are trying to turn her character into a domestic abuse survival story where Harley gives up the Joker and makes her own way in life. Problem is, her "own" way is by being a clown-themed character which is ridiculous because the entire conceit of the "Harley Quinn" persona was to impress the Joker. The logical conclusion to her story arc sans the Joker is where she was at the end of Batman Beyond Return of the Joker, completely devoid of clown paraphernalia and chastising her grand-kids for being associated with "The Jokerz".
Also, the way the Joker is characterized in these stories is always dumb. He's portrayed as forceful and rapey, when his abuse and manipulation was far more complex than that. It feels like Paul Dini was the only one who's ever had a good handle of it all.
Flashpoint followed the comic event 99%.
The rest didn't, especially Throne of Atlantis, they butchered it completely.
Discotheque
Banned
Their animated movies have been awful post flash point with the exception of the Bruce Timm one
I suspect this one will blow them out of the water
I suspect this one will blow them out of the water
I'm fine with it. More R-rated movies the better.
FlashbladeGAF
Member
HeartlessNobody213
Member
Agree with most people that everything after Flashpoint has just been ok at best.
Looking forward to this one though.
Looking forward to this one though.
I will. I bet it will look as "good" as the previous DC animated movies. All of them have an inherent aura of cheapness and blandness.
Wag
Member
Nobody's ever tired of money.
Secret Fawful
Member
At least show the decently animated scenes.
The scenes I showed are decently animated. Your examples are pretty sick, but I think you missed the point of what I was saying.
The animation is good enough. The current DC animation style and color are bland and don't fit this story well. The Killing Joke isn't an action story. It has small portions of action, but animation with texture and character would hold up the more introspective, literary story better.
When I read the Killing Joke, I don't think Cartoon Network Presents: The Killing Joke! I think grimy, harsh, adult, well-written, almost underground-feeling story. I just wish the style of the animation matched. I don't want it to look clean. I want it to look "ugly". Dirty. Rough.
Lights and Waves
Member
That art style is the pits. The DC animated movies are so poorly drawn lately.
And yet it's still better looking than the Bolland recoloring.
Poodlestrike
Banned
On TKJ's canon status in the comics:
It's still canon. They're probably going to stop talking about it, maybe tweak it a little. Take out the weird maybe sorta implied sexual abuse component.
Vulcano's assistant
Banned
Absolutely. I'm not going to judge the whole movie from one still, and I'll watch it to make any final judgments, but if it's going for the same direct-to-DVD look all of DC animation has had the past few years, I don't think it will stay timeless or last. You can do memorable low-budget animation.
Most Ralph Bakshi movies that I can find information on had budgets around 1.2 million dollars or LESS. Flashpoint Paradox had a budget of 3.5 MILLION DOLLARS! Now, it's probable that the costs of producing 2D animated movies, even low-budget ones, will have increased over the decades, but Bakshi recently made a 22 minute short film for 174 thousand dollars. Batman: Bad Blood also had a budget of 3.5 million dollars.
...
So let's look at 1.2 million dollars and rotoscoped animation vs. 3.5 million and DC's current style.
1.2 million from the 80s:
NSFW but smooth animation
3.5 million from this decade:
You can do as much with a smaller budget and style to boot, though it's probably a lot harder too. Also, I'm not arguing that it should specifically BE Bakshi, but I picked him as an example because of the content and neon, grimy, but realistic look of the story.
Budgets are bit inconsequential when there's no workforce you can hire for that. Like on a more extreme scenario, no matter how much money you have today, you couldn't make a feature look like Pinocchio by just buying it because no studio has the system to make such a thing today.
Warner's best option for something similar would be to outsource it entirely to Gobelin alumni in France instead of Asia.
Doctor Decimate
Member
Looks like it differs a bit from the art style DC has been using, which is good
Secret Fawful
Member
That's a really good point, sadly. And it's not like DC would ever have done what I'm talking about; it's just a pipe dream I'm talking about.
How cool would it be to see Joker's reveal at the carnival animated like this:
Or to see him dancing with the little people in BDSM at his throne like this.
Okay, he never exactly does that, but yeah. You know what I mean.
Or to see him walk through the hall of mirrors monologuing like this:
That's what would have gotten me excited, personally. So....shrug. I'm glad Conroy and Hamill get to do the story, though.
NipplesAndToes23
Member
Shit looking good.
IndoAssassin
Banned
Arkham Knight was actually Troy Baker
SoulUnison
Banned
Um...You took that post *really* literally.
Nobody thought Hamill was literally playing the Arkham Knight, he saying he returned to voicing the Joker for the title "Arkham Knight."
basically this. Yikes at the artstyle
George Oscar Bluth II
Banned
I can always count on Secret Fawful to remind me that good traditionally animated stuff isn't much around these days 
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