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First-Person Dungeon RPG Love-in

Schafer said:
Oh and of course this thread has gone one quite a while with no mention of...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/20/Betrayal_at_Krondor6.jpg

One of the greatest RPG's in the history of ever.
Yeah, the game was amazing, and it was always fun to solve those chest puzzles. The story was so-so, but the gameplay was surprisingly addictive, and the combat worked damn well.

The spiritual sequel Betrayal in Antara sucked balls though, played the demo and never even wanted to buy the game. But how's the Return to Krondor, been thinking of buying that for a long time. I know it's not near as good as Betrayal at Krondor, but does it at least have the same gameplay style, the item system and combat style? Can't even find videos of the game.
 
Prime crotch said:
If only it didn't had that old and annoying interface with the compass for movements...

True. I really, really wanted to play Ultima Underworld, but with that interface and the jerky scrolling, was impossible.

I play old games more than anything else, so graphics are not a concern, but a lot of western RPGs aged terrible. So, I would be glad if people could tell more what to expect from these games, since I'm also very interesting on the subject.

I'm very used with some of the characteristics and designs from old games, and I usually enjoy it. But every early 90s western RPG that I tried, I couldnt take it.
 
ninjaurbano said:
True. I really, really wanted to play Ultima Underworld, but with that interface and the jerky scrolling, was impossible.

I play old games more than anything else, so graphics are not a concern, but a lot of western RPGs aged terrible. So, I would be glad if people could tell more what to expect from these games, since I'm also very interesting on the subject.

I'm very used with some of the characteristics and designs from old games, and I usually enjoy it. But every early 90s western RPG that I tried, I couldnt take it.
Yes, definitely--I'd love to know how a lot of these have aged, too. For example, I've always wanted to play Ultima Underworld, but your comments are making me have second thoughts. Curiously, does anyone know if the PS1 version that came out in Japan was any better?
 
Ultima Underworld is ****ing amazing.

I've replayed them semi-recently and I didn't have a problem with the interface, myself.

As for "jerkiness" if you can handle DOOM1 you'll be fine with Ultima Underworld.
 
The sad thing is, making them these days will get you tagged as an Oblivion clone. I remember people acting like Morrowind was the only first person RPG in existence. Now, with even more gamers buying TESIV, that stigma is still there.

Shit, they announced that EA was creating a first person RPG (which became White Council) and even my first thought was: "Oblivion clone".

I never got to play a lot of 1st person RPGs when I was younger and didn't own one until Daggerfall. I would love for it to become a major sub-genre of RPGs again.
 
bengraven said:
Shit, they announced that EA was creating a first person RPG (which became White Council) and even my first thought was: "Oblivion clone".

In that case, I dont think you were very far off.
 
Schafer said:
Wizardry 8 is absolutely balls out amazing. Go find it if you can, works fine with XP and has aged reasonably well.

Yes yes and yes
People need more CRPG love and keep the console shit in stores
The japanese wizardry games are absolute SHIT. Please.
Wiz8 = best game made, ever. This needs screens:

wizardry8_3.jpeg


wizardry8_1.jpeg
 
Oh, you know what? I think I played a demo of Wiz8. Interface really pissed me off.
 
Whatever Might and Magic game I played for the Genesis just about made me rip my hair out. It was just really unfair or I couldn't figure out the fair way to play it. You would run into parties of like 100 enemies, and you were so underpowered. Plus the story and way to move forward in whatever story it had was really unclear.
 
XSamu said:
Lol no, the interface is terrible.

:lol lol no, you are probably too lazy to figure stuff out.
The interface is very easy to understand if you're willing to see past the bulky stuff. I'm betting you didn't even give it more than 30 minutes. Of course, console junkies will hate it. That's good. Remember you ****s dug Sir-Tech's grave.
 
Jefklak said:
That says more about you than the game.
Clunky interfaces are not fun to me and I hate using mice. I operate my laptop 95% with keyboard shortcuts, so mice driven game are bound to drive me bonkers. I'm still willing to give the game a shot, but friendly interfaces go a long way when it comes to games.
 
For PC, I don't think I was ever into an RPG more than World of Xeen, I loved that game.

I also got way into Shining in the Darkness for Genesis, mapping out everything.

g01631tk41t.jpg
 
john tv said:
Curiously, does anyone know if the PS1 version that came out in Japan was any better?

Much better. Fullscreen and better graphics. Much better music. Controls. Enemies and NPC are full polygons etc.
 
Westwood Studios original Lands of Lore for PC was an amazing game. Graphics were gorgeos and a good step up from the beautiful Eye of the Beholder which they made previously.
 
The interface for the Ultima Underworld games is just fine. Don't worry.

And the game is only jerky if you don't run it properly with DosBox. You have to speed up the game a little bit (like by hitting F7 or F8. . . I odn't remember), but if you speed it up then it runs silky smooth.

And where can one find a copy of King's Field for the PS2? That game looks awesome.
 
RevenantKioku said:
Clunky interfaces are not fun to me and I hate using mice. I operate my laptop 95% with keyboard shortcuts, so mice driven game are bound to drive me bonkers. I'm still willing to give the game a shot, but friendly interfaces go a long way when it comes to games.

I run it on my laptop too, fine. By the way, it's opengl driven and can be run under UNIX.
1/ there are SO MANY shortcuts, it ain't even funny. the devs really put a lot of effort in to accessibility. There are so many ways to do one simple task or command. The game is very well polished, as all Sir-Tech games. See Jagged Alliance 2.
2/ Try phased combat if you don't like actively managing your party members
3/ Again, the interface is far from "clunky". You can make the status bar transparent, remove the mini map and party formation graphic, and even decrease the space the avatars take. Fool around with it until it suits your needs.
4/ You can run it at higher resolutions than 1024x768...

Duck of Death, Ultima Underworld doesn't need to be run under DOSBox.
Grab the game here: http://www.abandonia.com/games/nl/193/UltimaUnderworldStygianAbyss.htm
Grab the interpreter here: http://uwadv.sourceforge.net/index.php?page=download
 
I don't want to derail the thread. But I played Ultima Underworld back when it came out and it DID have a clunky interface. I doubt 12 years or so has improved that fact. I can see why people passionately love the game, it was ahead of its time and that will make you forgive some of it's shortcomings.


--

Anyways .. I wanted to post a bunch of Xeen GIFs. This thread has made me want to dig out my copy and replay it again, I never did finish the game (damn dragons).

xeen7.jpg


xeen8.jpg


xeen6.jpg


xeen5.jpg


xeen4.jpg


xeen1.jpg


xeen2.jpg


xeen3.jpg


Looking back on it .. it likes the spiritual successor of Bard's Tale .. but 110% more user friendly. Just as charming and just as hard.
 
Speaking of FPS Dungeon Crawls, has anyone ever played this one?

B00004U55B.01._SS400_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

B00004U55B.01.BACK._SS400_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

wizwar009.jpg

wizfl010.jpg

wizfl001.jpg



I never played it myself and only remember the game because it has the same name as that classic NES game everyone(?) loves. I was always tempted to pick this game up, but some reason I didn't. IGN seemed to like it a lot and said the game takes 100+ hours to complete. O_o
 
Some Ultima Underworld pimping here:


Totally amazing games, Arx Fatalis was nice too. Although it felt a bit short, still worthwhile though.
 
Wizards and Warriors isn't too bad, it was made by D.W. Bradley who did Wizardry 5 - 7 and has a very strong Wizardry feel. It was very very buggy on release and I'm not sure what kind of patches came out for it.
 
Idd Schafer, but the W&W interface is probably even more cluncky. And the stupid real time combat system drove me crazy, try to concentrate on spellcasting in the middle of a goblin group at low level, you'll know why. Yes there's a "realtime - turnbased" slider, but it does not change anything at all. Anyway, world movement and the battle system both sucked and made me deinstall the game. Too bad actually, 'cause the races and skills etc are so obvious wizardry ripoffs.
Edit: oh town systems and NPC interaction was pretty bleh too.

Don't play Dungeon Lords btw. It'll eat your soul.
 
Jefklak said:
I run it on my laptop too, fine. By the way, it's opengl driven and can be run under UNIX.
1/ there are SO MANY shortcuts, it ain't even funny. the devs really put a lot of effort in to accessibility. There are so many ways to do one simple task or command. The game is very well polished, as all Sir-Tech games. See Jagged Alliance 2.
2/ Try phased combat if you don't like actively managing your party members
3/ Again, the interface is far from "clunky". You can make the status bar transparent, remove the mini map and party formation graphic, and even decrease the space the avatars take. Fool around with it until it suits your needs.
4/ You can run it at higher resolutions than 1024x768...
Well then I guess the only true way to prove me wrong is to give my your copy so I can play it.
 
Vieo said:
Speaking of FPS Dungeon Crawls, has anyone ever played this one?

*pictures of Wizards and Warriors for PC*


I never played it myself and only remember the game because it has the same name as that classic NES game everyone(?) loves. I was always tempted to pick this game up, but some reason I didn't. IGN seemed to like it a lot and said the game takes 100+ hours to complete. O_o

I loved the NES game, though I think W&W3 was my favorite (for being the first game to introduce me to different factions maybe?).

However, this game looks great. To anyone who played it: How freeroaming is it? It gives me a Daggerfall vibe and that can only be good.
 
Duck of Death said:
The interface for the Ultima Underworld games is just fine. Don't worry.

And the game is only jerky if you don't run it properly with DosBox. You have to speed up the game a little bit (like by hitting F7 or F8. . . I odn't remember), but if you speed it up then it runs silky smooth.

And where can one find a copy of King's Field for the PS2? That game looks awesome.

Well, the scrolling was not really the problem. Graphically speaking, Underworld tried things way ahead of its time and hardware, and every time that happened in the past, games usually dont age well.

You barely can see what's in front of you, with all that black fog. Controls are not so good. Battle system is horrible. The interface dont help etc

I tried Lands of Lore right now, and it's much better. The game recognizes the limitation of the hardware and tries to get the best of it.

This picture of Might and Magic is a good example.

xeen8.jpg


At least you can actually see the environment and what it's in front of you (even considering if the scrolling is not so good).

Btw, all those low-resolution old PC games looks stunning running at 320x240 on a SDTV. It's exactly the same thing that happens when you try to run a SNES or Genesis game on your PC monitor - it's 2D, it's low-resolution, it will look ugly. And since most of these games can be controlled only using a mouse, I can play lied on my bed. It's great.
 
Prime crotch said:
Is there a catch with the 6 pounds one? Seems awfully cheap.

No there's not, it's a budget edition already pre-patched to 1.2.4 - 3 CDS, manual on disk.
Now shut up and go buy it.
 
Wow. Lands of Lore rocks! Excellent interface!

It looks like a very underrated game, never heard before, there's not even a review on Gamefaqs.

Keep it Coming, Guys! I would love to try more games like this one.
 
Vieo said:
Speaking of FPS Dungeon Crawls, has anyone ever played this one?

B00004U55B.01._SS400_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

B00004U55B.01.BACK._SS400_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

wizwar009.jpg

wizfl010.jpg

wizfl001.jpg



I never played it myself and only remember the game because it has the same name as that classic NES game everyone(?) loves. I was always tempted to pick this game up, but some reason I didn't. IGN seemed to like it a lot and said the game takes 100+ hours to complete. O_o

Wizards & Warriors PC is a realtime first-person RPG that has no relation to the NES games. It was made by David Bradley, who also made Wizardry V-VII and Dungeon Lords (a more recent hack-and-slash game).

I got this game not having any idea about if it would be good or not, but was very pleasantly surprised. While it has some very real flaws, which affected its scores if you look at some reviews, once you learn to live with them the actual game is really, really great. The most obvious problems are that the interface is clumsy and requires more effort to use than it should, there are no keyboard hotkeys for anything (except, thankfully, movement), and the game wasn't quite finished, even patched, so there are some missing features or strange design decisions (the shop interface is a pain, some types of armor look cool but have almost no use without specific skills (that is, just use the highest AC armor that that character can wear, not something that seems to have been designed for that class, unless you've got a skill that makes up the difference), but the actual gameplay is fantastic, and it's a lot of fun. It's a complex game, with a six-character party, numerous skills and classes (and a three-tiered class system, with base classes and two levels of upgrade classes you can upgrade to if you follow the proper quest trees with that character), six schools of magic for the mages, etc... because of all the depth, it is much better if you have the manual and map that came with it. I found myself frequently referencing them, and while there is ingame mapping, it only reveals what you've explored, not the whole overworld like the paper map has, and the game doesn't have help for all of the skills and stuff ingame, only in external text documents I think and the manual. And unless you print them out those external text documents are useless while you're playing the game because of bugs that make it impossible to task-switch away from the game and come back... the screen just goes black and doesn't recover when you try to switch back. (There are also some issues with running the game in Windows XP; I don't have XP, but the site/forum link below should help you if you have problems -- the game can be made to run in XP if you know how.)

Despite its flaws, (and they do affect fun sometimes when you have to remember to back out of multilayered menus and switch characters just to do guild quests with each character, listen to the repeating "this is your next quest" speech each time you do so, etc...) though, the actual core gameplay is great. The graphics... well, they're good enough, in the overworld. Not amazing, but good enough... the dungeons clearly got most of the attention, though, and they really are the game at its graphical best. Between the fantastic dungeon level designs, challenging-but-not-too-challenging difficulty level, great soundtrack (some of the best "it can loop over and over and I don't even notice" music ever, I thought...), and fun real-time combat (it is slightly annoying that despite supposedly controlling a party of six characters to use ranged attacks you must back up and to use close-combat ones you must move forward, instead of being able to attack at range with the ranged ones and melee with melee attackers at the same time, but oh well. It works fine.), it's a great game. Don't let the issues scare you away; it's DEFINITELY worth playing for any first-person dungeon game who wants something that has some stylistic similarities to the old Wizardry games without being anywhere near as cruel to the player...

Best forum about the game I know of: (vital info for getting the game running in XP available there, check the forum especially): http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/wizardswarriors/index.shtml

Anyway, any fan of these games should buy it... but if you can, get a copy with the manual and map!

bengraven said:
However, this game looks great. To anyone who played it: How freeroaming is it? It gives me a Daggerfall vibe and that can only be good.

It's much more like Wizardry with real-time combat than Daggerfall (while real-time, the combat isn't hack-and-slash like TES -- you choose attacks and choose enemies, you don't swing the sword to attack or anything like that). There is a bit of free-roaming aspect, as there is a overworld (not TES massive by any stretch of the imagination, but decent sized for a normal RPG) and dungeons and at times you don't have to do them in order, but the game has a progression and you'll have to complete the quests in one area before moving on to the next one. I'm not much of a TES fan though... too nonlinear, I get bored, so I definitely preferred a more structured game like this one. Still though, try it. The story is solid, if not original, the voice acting is pretty good (all the dialog is voice-acted), and those dungeons... awesome stuff.
 
This thread needs more EoB!

I loved those games growing up in the days between my NES and SNES. I think out of the three the second one was probably the best, you start out in a forest and then make your way through that crazy tower which had a lot of different looks to the floors. I remember getting to the boss and not being strong enough to beat him or something. I think I may have cheated to see the end.

Never really got into the third one, don't remember why. My favorite feature of the series though was importing your party from each game to the next. Something you don't see in games really anymore.

I also remember playing some other PC RPG back in the day that played pretty much identical tot he EoB games but it wasn't a D&D game. I can't remember the name of it for the life of me.

And yeah, I took played some Ultima Underworld. I remember being a little turned off by at it first cause it was so different from the other Ultima game that I was into at the time.
 
Gah! How did I miss this thread?!

Anyhoo - I've been a big fan of first-person dungeons for a long time, ever since the first Phantasy Star on the SMS. I mapped many of the dungeons out on graph paper back in the day, so I guess that qualifies me as hardcore. :lol

I did the same for the entire overworld of Sword of Vermillion (I'll dig it out and put up a pic some day), and the entire game Shining in the Darkness. I went back through Shining the Holy Ark last year in March, just before I got my 360. Still a great game, with excellent duneon design. Dungeons were one of the primary reasons I picked up Oblivion; it had been too long since I had a good dungeon crawl. :(
 
Am I missing something or do I have to use the mouse a hell of a lot in EoB? I'm slapping the keyboard but I can't even turn with it! Sigh.
 
This thread has inspired me to revist some old games. Found my old Might and Magic discs and started up a new game of "Swords of Xeen" and man, sooo awesome.
 
Never really liked Swords of Xeen. Though Clouds/Darkside (World) of Xeen was MUCH better. Not sure what the deal was with Swords, but it felt like some shitty fan-made rip off. :(
 
I reinstalled World of Xeen because of this thread. Soooo awesome indeed.

Also, I agree with whomever said Arx Fatalis. Great and quite recent first-person dungeon RPG that doesn't get nearly enough recognition.
 
GitarooMan said:
For PC, I don't think I was ever into an RPG more than World of Xeen, I loved that game.

I also got way into Shining in the Darkness for Genesis, mapping out everything.

g01631tk41t.jpg


Ah, what fond memories. I never mapped in that game, which is probably why I found it so hard.
 
Mejilan said:
Never really liked Swords of Xeen. Though Clouds/Darkside (World) of Xeen was MUCH better. Not sure what the deal was with Swords, but it felt like some shitty fan-made rip off. :(

Swords sort of was a shitty fan-made rip off. It was made by 2 guys as a kind of side project for NWC. I have World of Xeen sitting around somewhere, if I can find it I'll probably play through that instead.
 
GhaleonEB said:
Gah! How did I miss this thread?!

Anyhoo - I've been a big fan of first-person dungeons for a long time, ever since the first Phantasy Star on the SMS. I mapped many of the dungeons out on graph paper back in the day, so I guess that qualifies me as hardcore. :lol

I did the same for the entire overworld of Sword of Vermillion (I'll dig it out and put up a pic some day), and the entire game Shining in the Darkness. I went back through Shining the Holy Ark last year in March, just before I got my 360. Still a great game, with excellent duneon design. Dungeons were one of the primary reasons I picked up Oblivion; it had been too long since I had a good dungeon crawl. :(

That's what's great about games like Wizards & Warriors or Wizardry 8... in many ways they are like classic dungeon crawlers, but you don't need graph paper and there isn't as much of an overwhelming feeling that the developers hate you and want to to suffer for actually wanting to play their game... :)
 
Schafer said:
Swords sort of was a shitty fan-made rip off. It was made by 2 guys as a kind of side project for NWC. I have World of Xeen sitting around somewhere, if I can find it I'll probably play through that instead.

Ah. Well then, as long as it wasn't just me... :)

World of Xeen is SO awesome. By far my favorite M&M. Though I kinda dug the Genny version of M&M2 more than I should have!
 
Damn. World of Xeen looks very interesting. I'm obsessive about games like this one. But unfortunately, I guess is too much complex for my taste, and if you combine it with the old game design and graphics, it's very hard to enjoy it if you are playing for the first time, at this point. So, the game shows its age. I want to play, but I just cant get into it.

I prefer the aprouch of Lands of Lore. Simple interface and battle system. Highly polished.

Well, maybe because it's more geared towards an adventure style. Like a mix between adventure and RPG. Since I'm a fan of both genres, I loved it. And also probably because I'm much more used with japanese RPGs.

Humm, that's why Phantasy Star was so perfect :)

So, is there more RPGs like this one ? Games that are not only a basic RPG, like Might and Magic, but that also have a high adventure influence, like Lands of Lore.
 
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