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Fitness |OT3| BroScience, Protein Dysentery, XXL Calf Implants, and Squat Rack Hogs

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Timedog

good credit (by proxy)
Depends on your goals, self improvement etc.

Personally I want to compete, so for me strength is paramount, but conditioning has to go with it. It's no good to be a powerful beast if you're also 50+lbs overweight. That's part of Wendlers philosophy too.

Well, yeah. If you want to compete in a sport that requires strength or huge brute strength is needed in your job, that's different. I'm talking about for most people in the gym, which is probably why most people gravitate towards bodybuilding stuff and don't care about powerlifting.

Lots of people (in the general public) knew who Ronnie Coleman was, not many knew about Ed Coan. There's a reason for that.
 

Brolic Gaoler

formerly Alienshogun

TMW had a video about this actually.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AmKBTlD_g0

Well, yeah. If you want to compete in a sport that requires strength or huge brute strength is needed in your job, that's different. I'm talking about for most people in the gym, which is probably why most people gravitate towards bodybuilding stuff and don't care about powerlifting.

Lots of people (in the general public) knew who Ronnie Coleman was, not many knew about Ed Coan. There's a reason for that.

To be fair, most people in the gym, and that come into this thread don't stick with it anyway.

But yeah, you're right, most people work out to look better.

Also, you're right. Bodybuilding gets more publicity than powerlifting, it's a more glamorized sport. I never said it wasn't. ;)

In fact, Coleman is brought up as an example in the article I posted, he's also a huge powerhouse of strength.

I think it's important to note that a lot of the original bodybuilding guys like Arnold Schwartzenegger had their roots in powerlifting. I don't know why people keep trying to separate strength and aesthetics.

I don't either, and again, that entire thing was taken way out of context. Especially when the original post was complimenting Cooter.
Shit went the exact opposite of the intention due to either hidden agendas, or failure of comprehension.
 

ezrarh

Member
I think it's important to note that a lot of the original bodybuilding guys like Arnold Schwartzenegger had their roots in powerlifting. I don't know why people keep trying to separate strength and aesthetics. I know I'm not saying anything new but if your goal is aesthetics, you should also focus on strength since you got to lift big to get big - on top of having a lower bodyfat.
 

Mr.City

Member
Being fat doesn't look good; being skinny and weak doesn't look good. Listen fellars, a lot of the competitors at the meet I helped at last week looked pretty damn good. There were a few doughy individual and one huge motherfucker who deadlifted about 750. You don't need to get obese to get strong or trying to be Six-Pack Jack with your arm routines and Men's Health diets that lead to nowhere.

There's no wrong with vanity work as long as you're doing your main lifts. Don't be the guy who has big arms and a big chest with no legs, traps, etc. You'll look like an asshole and all the serious lifters will laugh at you.

The fact that so many of you are going on about physical strength having no real life application is very disappointing since 1) it just shows how dull, soft, and boring society has become and 2) it shows a real lack of imagination. You want to get really jacked? Try entering a bodybuilding competition. See what happens to your training. You think you're pretty strong but have no place to use it? Try a powerlifting meet and watch happens when some guy is warming up in the back with your max. Like to move it? Try a sport. Jesus, guys, don't label this shit as useless because you can't use it as a conversation topic or it doesn't apply to your office job.
 
Why'd you guys drop testosterdrama from the title again?

For me I see my body as a never ending project. I've spent nearly my whole life hating it, whether it be for looks or function. I just want to take it places I've never thought I could go and do shit I never thought I could do. Strength and aesthetics, whatever. I just want to know that I took my body to another level. Yeah I'm a bodybuilder, but I also want to be able to do other strength focused shit as well. To me it's all the same thing, self improvement.
 

Ashhong

Member
Legs are really the only thing that ever gets 'super-sore' for me. And its usually only real bad if I haven't worked out in a while, so the first one or two leg workouts are pretty rough for 3-4 days. For these periods, I stick to chest/arm/shoulder/back/ab exercises to save myself the pain cuz sometimes 'working through it' isn't an option its so bad(like when you can barely walk and want to cry at the thought of going up or down steps).

Are you just starting out? After a few workouts, it'll probably get better and you wont be nearly as sore.

Been doing StrongLifts for about 8 weeks, but I took a 2 week break before going back at it, which explains my extreme soreness lol. Going back to the gym today, and my legs already feel a bit better. I will probably just power through it and end up stalling.
 

Timedog

good credit (by proxy)
Being fat doesn't look good; being skinny and weak doesn't look good. Listen fellars, a lot of the competitors at the meet I helped at last week looked pretty damn good. There were doughy individual and one huge motherfucker who deadlifted about 750. You don't need to get obese to get strong or trying to be Six-Pack Jack with your arm routines and Men's Health diets that lead to nowhere.

There's no wrong with vanity work as long as you're doing your main lifts. Don't be the guy who has big arms and a big chest with no legs, traps, etc. You'll look like an asshole and all the serious lifters will laugh at you.

The fact that so many of you are going on about physical strength having no real life application is very disappointing since 1) it just shows how dull, soft, and boring society has become and 2) it shows a real lack of imagination. You want to get really jacked? Try entering a bodybuilding competition. See what happens to your training. You think you're pretty strong but have no place to use it? Try a powerlifting meet and watch happens when some guy is warming up in the back with your max. Like to move it? Try a sport. Jesus, guys, don't label this shit as useless because you can't use it as a conversation topic or it doesn't apply to your office job.

This is the type of attitude that I think turns some people away from the thread. Because someone wants to look different than you doesn't make them an "asshole", and there is no reason why "serious lifters" should laugh at them. It just comes off as super insecure.

Most people don't care about competing in a sport or care that a powerlifter uses their max as light work. If someone just wants bigger guns or whatever, seriously who cares? Good for them.
 

demon

I don't mean to alarm you but you have dogs on your face
question about squat rack hogging: what are your thoughts on using it for barbell overhead presses? There's really no other way to do them as far as I can tell, unless you want to lift them off the floor, but then you're not strictly doing an OHP. I just feel sometimes I'm getting dirty looks behind my back when using it for OHP.
 
Most people don't care about competing in a sport or care that a powerlifter uses their max as light work. If someone just wants bigger guns or whatever, seriously who cares? Good for them.

I think it is more of the concept of going about it the right and proper way. For example, you may want bigger arms, but that doesn't mean you neglect the legs. The more muscle your legs have, the bigger you become everywhere. I think that when new people start lifting, there should be a solid foundation and then go from there. A lot of times, you don't see that and it becomes frustrating.
 

Mr.City

Member
This is the type of attitude that I think turns some people away from the thread. Because someone wants to look different than you doesn't make them an "asshole", and there is no reason why "serious lifters" should laugh at them. It just comes off as super insecure.

Most people don't care about competing in a sport or care that a powerlifter uses their max as light work. If someone just wants bigger guns or whatever, seriously who cares? Good for them.

What? Wanting to do something big? I find what usually happens after they get their bigger guns is they trail off, and it becomes a period of going to the gym and falling of the wagon. Guess I'm just a fanatic.

question about squat rack hogging: what are your thoughts on using it for barbell overhead presses? There's really no other way to do them as far as I can tell, unless you want to lift them off the floor, but then you're not strictly doing an OHP. I just feel sometimes I'm getting dirty looks behind my back when using it for OHP.

Nothing wrong with using the rack for the press.
 

Brolic Gaoler

formerly Alienshogun
question about squat rack hogging: what are your thoughts on using it for barbell overhead presses? There's really no other way to do them as far as I can tell, unless you want to lift them off the floor, but then you're not strictly doing an OHP. I just feel sometimes I'm getting dirty looks behind my back when using it for OHP.

I do mine in the squat rack, it's perfectly acceptable. Just try to use the "bad" squat rack if there is one.
 

Cooter

Lacks the power of instantaneous movement
Er, so you post an article hours and hours later after you posted a comment that "strength>aesthetics" since this morning? LOL. Might as well come out with it that you're trying to cover your tail.

Dude, I know you can get strong and look like an adonis at the same time. Nowhere since this morning I've stated otherwise. I just like picking apart ignorant comments like you made and cannot take back. Basically you're saying you'd rather be fat and strong, when in reality, you can be both strong and aesthetically pleasing.

Anyway, I'm done.

I think he's saying you can be strong and around 10% as oppossed to being at 7 or 8% just so you can have abs for the "girls." Sitting at 10-12% is far from fat. When you get down lower strength is not your primary objective which he believes it should be. I tend to agree. Based on my experience, having a % around 7 or 8 usually leaves you with less energy and generally you feel worse.
 

Brolic Gaoler

formerly Alienshogun
I think he's saying you can be strong and around 10% as oppossed to being at 7 or 8% just so you can have abs for the "girls." Sitting at 10-12% is far from fat. When you get down lower strength is not your primary objective which he believes it should be. I tend to agree. Based on my experience, having a % around 7 or 8 usually leaves you with less energy and generally you feel worse.

That would be correct.

After all, if I was saying "Aesthetics is completely garbage" I wouldn't be running fucking hills and killing myself. I'd also still be eating the shit out of Beefaroni.

At least the guy the comment was aimed at understood the meaning, thanks Cooter.
 

razielim

Member
I used to shake my head at dudes with arms as thick as their waists yet legs as thick as their ankles. After talking with a friend recently about how he feels when running and realizing how that's the same feeling I get from power lifting, I don't scoff at people for having different goals than myself. I might think someone's body composition is silly but if they're achieving what they want for themselves than I'm happy for them. My goals aren't other people's goals but as long as we're all reaching our goals what's the problem?

Then again I'm a jack-of-all/master-of-none kind of guy. I compete in power lifting competitions, mountain bike races, do lots of charity/fun road bike rides, started doing 5k's (warrior dash and mud runs) and this year signed up for my first sprint triathlon. Doing all these detracts from reaching my full potential in the other but I love challenging myself in new ways while still having a passion for power lifting. As long as I'm improving I'm having a blast reaching my goals. I get some weird looks in the 5k and road bike rides due to my body mass but whatever, I'm having a good time.
 

Cooter

Lacks the power of instantaneous movement
That would be correct.

After all, if I was saying "Aesthetics is completely garbage" I wouldn't be running fucking hills and killing myself. I'd also still be eating the shit out of Beefaroni.

At least the guy the comment was aimed at understood the meaning. Thanks Cooter.

Yeah... I don't know where he got it's either be fat or have washboard abs. Glad I could clarify.

EDIT: Hey, it just dawned on me. Maybe he was implying that I am fat now. :O
 

Timedog

good credit (by proxy)
I think it is more of the concept of going about it the right and proper way. For example, you may want bigger arms, but that doesn't mean you neglect the legs. The more muscle your legs have, the bigger you become everywhere. I think that when new people start lifting, there should be a solid foundation and then go from there. A lot of times, you don't see that and it becomes frustrating.
Why should it be frustrating? Maybe they specifically don't want bigger legs? Honestly who knows and who cares. If someone goes looking for advice it's fine, give it to them, but there's no point in looking down at some random dude at the gym for doing curls and not squats unless it's to feel superior or boost your own ego.

If they're doing something that's actually wrong (like curling in the squat rack, or using terrible form), that's different, but wanting to just build your guns and chest is just a difference in goals, and there's nothing wrong with that.

What? Wanting to do something big? I find what usually happens after they get their bigger guns is they trail off, and it becomes a period of going to the gym and falling of the wagon. Guess I'm just a fanatic.
Not sure what you're trying to say here.
 

razielim

Member
question about squat rack hogging: what are your thoughts on using it for barbell overhead presses? There's really no other way to do them as far as I can tell, unless you want to lift them off the floor, but then you're not strictly doing an OHP. I just feel sometimes I'm getting dirty looks behind my back when using it for OHP.

This is one of the reasons I go to the gym late at night. Usually just a few people on treadmills and maybe one or two on machines. I hog the power rack when I'm in there, although if anyone comes in the area I'll ask them if they want the rack or want to jump in.
 

Nemo

Will Eat Your Children
Whats a solid weight for an aesthetic build at 5'10?

(Without looking like a tool who only lifts for abs and such).
75-85kg maybe? Depending on how much you want it of course, but under 85kg (with minimal to moderate fat) should be good enough
 

Cooter

Lacks the power of instantaneous movement
Whats a solid weight for an aesthetic build at 5'10?

(Without looking like a tool who only lifts for abs and such).

I'm 5'10 and 185 and feel very comfortable with my strength to weight ratio. I think it's a personal preference. Probably between 165-190.
 

kylej

Banned
3toAF.jpg


(~*functional strength*~ is dumb people should do what they want in the gym)
 

Troblin

Member
75-85kg maybe? Depending on how much you want it of course, but under 85kg (with minimal to moderate fat) should be good enough

Yah.. I think ~75-80kg at single digit bf is my ideal. Probably 2+ years away tho.

Just curious because I've been cutting down for the past 2 months. I was 177lbs at ~16-17% bf.

Currently I'm at 161lbs 11-12%, but probably have another 7-8lbs before I hit my ideal look. Strength is definitely taking a hit tho. I probably have lost ~10-20% on all lifts.
 
Why should it be frustrating? Maybe they specifically don't want bigger legs? Honestly who knows and who cares. If someone goes looking for advice it's fine, give it to them, but there's no point in looking down at some random dude at the gym for doing curls and not squats unless it's to feel superior or boost your own ego.

I'm not looking down at anyone doing curls. Hell, I do curls and other isolated bicep workouts as well. I'm not looking down on a BB style workout either. They are perfectly fine. If people are lifting for atheistic purposes, nothing wrong with that. But that doesn't mean you neglect the other parts of your body. If you want to look good, doesn't that include your legs as well? Why choose to ignore that?

I'm sorry but if you are 6'3 and weigh 135, your main focus should not be getting 18 inch arms with the 'bicep peaks'. Can it be a long term goal? Of course. But doing 184278247187 curls while still eating like crap and ignoring other parts of your body will not get you to where you want. So why go down that path?
 

Timedog

good credit (by proxy)
If you want to look good, doesn't that include your legs as well? Why choose to ignore that?

I'm sorry but if you are 6'3 and weigh 135, your main focus should not be getting 18 inch arms with the 'bicep peaks'.

"Looking good" is subjective. For some people that includes building their legs, for some it doesn't. Again, who cares. Random guy at the gym's main focus should be whatever he feels like it should be, not what FallingEdge feels like it should be.
 
If they choose to look that way and are fine with it, then I don't see what's the big deal if we choose to criticize that routine/look in this thread.
 
Why should it be frustrating? Maybe they specifically don't want bigger legs? Honestly who knows and who cares. If someone goes looking for advice it's fine, give it to them, but there's no point in looking down at some random dude at the gym for doing curls and not squats unless it's to feel superior or boost your own ego.

If they're doing something that's actually wrong (like curling in the squat rack, or using terrible form), that's different, but wanting to just build your guns and chest is just a difference in goals, and there's nothing wrong with that.


Not sure what you're trying to say here.

You are correct sir!!!!
To each his own.
 

yacobod

Banned
as an impartial observer i'd say there is a good bit of regurgitation in this thread. guys read an article or watch a youtube clip and then repeat what they seen or read as gospel. there's many ways to skin a cat, and everyone has different goals in the weight room. there isn't one right way to success.
 

Brolic Gaoler

formerly Alienshogun
Aesthetically, this is what I'm shooting for.

Strength wise, I wanna be stronger. ;)

Edit: it's like he's reading my words, and laughing in his head...

LeanJimWEndler.jpg


as an impartial observer i'd say there is a good bit of regurgitation in this thread. guys read an article or watch a youtube clip and then repeat what they seen or read as gospel. there's many ways to skin a cat, and everyone has different goals in the weight room. there isn't one right way to success.

That's life in general broseph and I agree, strength training is far from a concrete science. Nothing is 100% right. Throw in differing goals, and shit's all crazy.

That said, falling back on the big names (tried and true experience over many years) and you're probably dealing along the lines of wisdom that's applicable to the general population.
 
Thanks for all the different opinions. Interesting points of view out there... maybe the strength and the aesthetic camps can find peace. :)
 

rififi

Member
I'm not looking down at anyone doing curls. Hell, I do curls and other isolated bicep workouts as well. I'm not looking down on a BB style workout either. They are perfectly fine. If people are lifting for atheistic purposes, nothing wrong with that. But that doesn't mean you neglect the other parts of your body. If you want to look good, doesn't that include your legs as well? Why choose to ignore that?

Exactly, aesthetics are all about proportions. I often see people with large biceps and chest, but no lats, traps or legs; and they look ridiculous.

Although my primary fitness goals deal with optimizing strength and agility (meaning I can't gain too much mass), I have to admit, I do quite a bit of exercises that are mainly intended for aesthetic purposes.
 

balddemon

Banned
Yah.. I think ~75-80kg at single digit bf is my ideal. Probably 2+ years away tho.

Just curious because I've been cutting down for the past 2 months. I was 177lbs at ~16-17% bf.

Currently I'm at 161lbs 11-12%, but probably have another 7-8lbs before I hit my ideal look. Strength is definitely taking a hit tho. I probably have lost ~10-20% on all lifts.

What are you numbers at now? I'm 170ish at 10% BF and I consider my numbers to be pretty good for my weight + I am decently cut. Might just be me and how my body is though.
 

Timedog

good credit (by proxy)
If they choose to look that way and are fine with it, then I don't see what's the big deal if we choose to criticize that routine/look in this thread.

It's pointless other than to stroke ego("I'm better than that guy"), and it seems to lead to some indirectly hostile gang-ups when a new poster comes in and states their goals. There's this attitude like "LOL, another wannabe brobuilder" or whatever. It just irks me when people come in and get a lot of good advice, but then some really dismissive responses because they don't have a leg exercise in their routine or they don't know some principle of nutrition/exercise because they've just started working out for the first time in their years/their life.

I feel like the type of attitude I'm talking about breeds those types of responses and makes the thread too insular.

Of course, I'm not saying it's bad to give your opinion and say stuff like "I think it's better to have a strength foundation, even if your eventual goal is size". Nothing at all wrong with stating your opinion on why legs shouldn't be ignored or barbell exercises are better than isolation work when giving advice or just in general.
 

Mr.City

Member
It's pointless other than to stroke ego("I'm better than that guy"), and it seems to lead to some indirectly hostile gang-ups when a new poster comes in and states their goals. There's this attitude like "LOL, another wannabe brobuilder" or whatever. It just irks me when people come in and get a lot of good advice, but then some really dismissive responses because they don't have a leg exercise in their routine or they don't know some principle of nutrition/exercise because they've just started working out for the first time in their years/their life.

I feel like the type of attitude I'm talking about breeds those types of responses and makes the thread too insular.

Of course, I'm not saying it's bad to give your opinion and say stuff like "I think it's better to have a strength foundation, even if your eventual goal is size". Nothing at all wrong with stating your opinion on why legs shouldn't be ignored or barbell exercises are better than isolation work when giving advice or just in general.

I haven't seen that many dismissive responses like the ones you're talking about. And internet elitism is never good. Most of us here are people with 1-5 years of training under their belts, so there's hardly a bunch of accomplished athletes here.

But....

There's an OP with a lot of information from a lot of sources, and if you don't read it and then post "Gaf, help me! I want to get jacked and big guns!," then we're going to tell you go to back to the basics. People can workout however they want regardless of the collective opinions of this thread, however there's got to be standards. If you're getting mad because we bag on someone because he skips on the squats because his legs are "already toned from running," then fuck, why don't we all just zumba?
 
Aesthetically, this is what I'm shooting for.

Strength wise, I wanna be stronger. ;)

Edit: it's like he's reading my words, and laughing in his head...

http://crossfitbattlefield.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/LeanJimWEndler.jpg
Man, that's a good build to aim for. I would be totally happy looking like that, not to mention having the beastly strength behind the build. Damn.

I need to remember to complain to my gym about their shoddy benches. It's really starting to piss me off. They upper part of the adjustable benches have loose bolts and tend to rock around A LOT with any slight movement. It can make getting into position when lifting heavy really unsafe.

I was doing incline DB presses and managed to land the only good bench in the gym, got up after my first set to get a drink and got bench jacked (my fault. I didn't say anything cause there were two other empty benches next to us, but when I went to check them, they were both shoddy. I probably would've been fine, but if I don't get into position right and the jiggle of the bench catches me off guard, I could see myself losing hold of a DB and wrecking my shoulder.

Come to think of it, a lot of the equipment at my gym has gotten really bad, there's been a lot more "out of order" signs than usual and not much has been fixed. I think it's time for me to go check out the Gold's down the street and give up on my uni gym.
 

Timedog

good credit (by proxy)
I haven't seen that many dismissive responses like the ones you're talking about. And internet elitism is never good. Most of us here are people with 1-5 years of training under their belts, so there's hardly a bunch of accomplished athletes here.

But....

There's an OP with a lot of information from a lot of sources, and if you don't read it and then post "Gaf, help me! I want to get jacked and big guns!," then we're going to tell you go to back to the basics. People can workout however they want regardless of the collective opinions of this thread, however there's got to be standards. If you're getting mad because we bag on someone because he skips on the squats because his legs are "already toned from running," then fuck, why don't we all just zumba?

You're right, there is an OP and people should read it. I feel it's pretty tailored towards one set of goals (strength), but it's got a lot of good info. Sending someone back to read the OP when the OP answers their question is fine. There's nothing wrong with someone liking how their legs look and wanting to build in other places. It's not even really arguable, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
 
D

Deleted member 12837

Unconfirmed Member
You're right, there is an OP and people should read it. I feel it's pretty tailored towards one set of goals (strength), but it's got a lot of good info. Sending someone back to read the OP when the OP answers their question is fine. There's nothing wrong with someone liking how their legs look and wanting to build in other places. It's not even really arguable, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Is someone wrong if they want to skip a lower body workout entirely and only focus solely on abs, chest and arms? No. You're right, it's all completely subjective. However, Mr. City is correct: there need to be standards. Most sensible people would agree that an uneven build of toothpick legs and flat glutes with a huge upper body looks ridiculous.

If that's your thing then by all means go for it, but don't expect support from people in a strength and fitness thread. I don't think fitness experts on either end of the spectrum (strength or aesthetics) would ever recommend working solely on a subset of the body. Focusing more attention on one area is one thing, but completely ignoring others is entirely different. It's just not good advice.

And for the record, I don't really think any of the aesthetics > strength people who post in here regularly really fit the description of this hypothetical person I've outlined above, or that Timedog has been referencing. For the most part, they all "get it" and are "doing it right".
 

demon

I don't mean to alarm you but you have dogs on your face
This is what I want to achieve:

http://i.istockimg.com/file_thumbvi...4366-male-fitness-model-wearing-underwear.jpg

Not the fat dude who's bald in the picture above.

I can't imagine the agonizing diet it would require to maintain that body. Fuck that.


On another note, back from the gym and my SL routine. Tried 150 on the bench press for the first time and couldn't quite make it. It felt noticeably more difficult than trying 140 and 145 for the first time, both of which I believe I got 5x5 out of on my first attempt. I feel like I may be able to get it next time. My squats are finally coming along....I was having nasty problems with my grip and wrist pain and whatnot but I think I've moved past that. Did 155 5x5 on the squats without much difficulty. Moving on up to 155 on the rows next time.
 
I have a couple girls on the side right now. Right now there's a 32 year old (I'm 29 and I've never been with an older woman in my life). Things we have in common: She has a puggle, and she's a trainer (gasp!). The other is 25, still in college that I met when I was hanging around the tavern with friends at my old uni.
 

Cooter

Lacks the power of instantaneous movement

rando14

Member
My preferred look is MJW. Lean and strong.

F9ZF2.jpg


I'm pretty close already to that physique, he has better shoulders and a more aesthetic chest than me though.
 
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