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[Reverend Speed]

64gigabyteram & ResurrectedContrarian are basically on the same page, there - your priority is the deliberate static framing of the environment, be it painted or rendered or realtime. You're seeking a deliberately composed view, by whatever means. I'm a big fan of static camera angles, but I'd never do prerendered stuff today even if the game was fully static angles. You lose a lot of flexibility in development iteration and deployment, otherwise.

...Oooh, tempted to see if I should put Sonic Unleashed on Fixed Camera Appreciation Society, now. As you say, there's arguments against doing it, but I already have Inside on the list... and the Unleashed is absolutely tightly controlling the player's perspective in a 3D game... but it's not multicam per room, really... sooo...

TheGecko - Did you ever try the original control system in the first release of Heavy Rain? Thought that was quite interesting. I dig the whole continuity of movement thing with tank controls, but I've also played a lot of fixed multicam games with cam-relative controls and... honestly, they work pretty well, once you get used to 'em.

S SlimeGooGoo - Ooh, might have to add that to one of our lists...

 

[PharaoTutAnchAmun]

The upcoming Pillars of Eternity by Obsidian.

The upcoming? The game came out in 2017 for PS4 and xbox one. Ore is there an updated version in the works for the PS5 and the xbox S/X?

 

[64gigabyteram]

but it's not multicam per room, really... sooo...

It is though, in the hubs and werehog stages which are far slower paced, there's a lot of multicam per room angles more akin to Resident Evil and DMC.

You're seeking a deliberately composed view, by whatever means. I'm a big fan of static camera angles, but I'd never do prerendered stuff today even if the game was fully static angles. You lose a lot of flexibility in development iteration and deployment, otherwise.

This is why I don't really get his beef with FFX. At the end of the day it's all mostly static with some panning shots, and some prerendered backgrounds too in some areas. Prerendered has a charm to it, but these days it's very inefficient and useless.
It's like saying Resident Evil Code Veronica was the death of the franchise cuz the environments were in 3D, even if it did still use fixed camera techniques...

 

[PharaoTutAnchAmun]

That's an absolutely valid opinion, of course. But I think there's value in having the developer being able to control the information available to the player in this way - and the end result can be incredibly atmospheric. Dunno why you'd think it wasn't interactive, though! =) Come along to our raffle and maybe you'll win something that will change your mind. =P

Wooow 95 members, thats a strong community...

 

[ResurrectedContrarian]

It is though, in the hubs and werehog stages which are far slower paced, there's a lot of multicam per room angles more akin to Resident Evil and DMC.

This is why I don't really get his beef with FFX. At the end of the day it's all mostly static with some panning shots, and some prerendered backgrounds too in some areas. Prerendered has a charm to it, but these days it's very inefficient and useless.
It's like saying Resident Evil Code Veronica was the death of the franchise cuz the environments were in 3D, even if it did still use fixed camera techniques...

Because most of the live (3d rendered) locations you see in the first hour or two of gameplay look like absolute garbage compared to its predecessors (that horrible uninspired city where you're running around on the streets near the start, compared to Midgar's prerendered art, holy hell what a colossal downgrade a generation later).

Having a fix angle isn't all that's involved; pre-rendered is able to give way more bang for your buck. Like how the Gamecube RE remake was more beautiful than nearly every game even a generation later, because they used prerendering to handle the backdrops and smartly saved all the conosle power for special effects or models on top of that.

FFX didn't go fully into live rendering and still had interiors and other places without it, but it was the beginning of the end for me because right at the start you could tell they traded their old visual craft and polish for trying to be more state-of-the-art with live environments... which paradoxically look far more dead & dated now than the prerendered parts.

 

[Reverend Speed]

64gigabyteram - No, I'm with you there. I'm trying to organise a few people to play the Resi Outbreak games - they're full 3D fixed multicam and they look gorgeous. =)

PharaoTutAnchAmun - We're bigger than the average Steam group, but I'll absolutely grant you that I'm not great at promoting the group. Hate social media, etc...! =)

 

[64gigabyteram]

Because most of the live (3d rendered) locations you see in the first hour or two of gameplay look like absolute garbage compared to its predecessors (that horrible uninspired city where you're running around on the streets near the start, compared to Midgar's prerendered art, holy hell what a colossal downgrade a generation later).

Having a fix angle isn't all that's involved; pre-rendered is able to give way more bang for your buck. Like how the Gamecube RE remake was more beautiful than nearly every game even a generation later, because they used prerendering to handle the backdrops and smartly saved all the conosle power for special effects or models on top of that.

FFX didn't go fully into live rendering and still had interiors and other places without it, but it was the beginning of the end for me because right at the start you could tell they traded their old visual craft and polish for trying to be more state-of-the-art with live environments... which paradoxically look far more dead & dated now than the prerendered parts.

Fair enough, FFX was on the ps2 and that system was quite weak even for the time. I don't see the issue, the environments look quite nice and have aged well especially with all the detail and color in them. I guess FF7s are more technically impressive, but you seem to be criticizing them for their artistic merit. I don't think prerendering FFX's environments would make you like them any more, since you seem to dislike them in general

 

[cinnamonandgravy]

would love a new fixed-camera RE and onimusha w/ prerendered backgrounds.

ooooo the 3d models would be soooo detailed.

love the suspense and scene framing of a fixed-camera.

 

[rofif]

Dark Earth

 

[TheGecko]

64gigabyteram & ResurrectedContrarian are basically on the same page, there - your priority is the deliberate static framing of the environment, be it painted or rendered or realtime. You're seeking a deliberately composed view, by whatever means. I'm a big fan of static camera angles, but I'd never do prerendered stuff today even if the game was fully static angles. You lose a lot of flexibility in development iteration and deployment, otherwise.

...Oooh, tempted to see if I should put Sonic Unleashed on Fixed Camera Appreciation Society, now. As you say, there's arguments against doing it, but I already have Inside on the list... and the Unleashed is absolutely tightly controlling the player's perspective in a 3D game... but it's not multicam per room, really... sooo...

TheGecko - Did you ever try the original control system in the first release of Heavy Rain? Thought that was quite interesting. I dig the whole continuity of movement thing with tank controls, but I've also played a lot of fixed multicam games with cam-relative controls and... honestly, they work pretty well, once you get used to 'em.

S SlimeGooGoo - Ooh, might have to add that to one of our lists...

I understand this is personal preference, I think further games of this style should have both options.

For me non tank controls really just mess my movement up, I just hate it, I guess that's how the other people feel who hate tank controls. Chalk and cheese.

I did try them and yeh still feels messed up to me lol

 

[Reverend Speed]

would love a new fixed-camera RE and onimusha w/ prerendered backgrounds.

love the suspense and scene framing of a fixed-camera.

Your words to... developer's ears, man. =) Have you tried Tormented Souls? It might scratch that itch a little.

rofif - I think we have that one in the main Fixed Camera Appreciation Society list... it's available on Steam...! Always looked interesting to me, never got around to it.

TheGecko - Absolutely agree about these games supporting both options. Honestly, also supporting mouse and touch would make a ton of sense, from an accessibility standpoint.

 

[Shifty]

I'm a big fan of static camera angles, but I'd never do prerendered stuff today even if the game was fully static angles. You lose a lot of flexibility in development iteration and deployment, otherwise.

I'd say there's still a case to be made for it with the appropriate tooling.

Commercial engines like UE have been flirting with the video production industry for a few years now, so have some pretty robust offline rendering functionality that draws from the same scene model as a real-time game would.
You could iterate quickly with lower-quality realtime (or async) renders on powerful development hardware, then spawn off render jobs via CI that crank up the scalability settings to generate max-quality final frames for the weaker target platforms.

The deferred rendering pipeline would likely allow for some innovation too. If you were to bake out each G-buffer as its own texture and do a hybrid approach, the renderer wouldn't have to care about world geometry, but would retain access to things like depth, normals, PBR channels, and various other data for purposes of real-time fragment shading effects like lighting, shadows and reflection. That could be a big win for the right kind of game, since - depending on target GPU features - a lot of precious CPU time could be freed up for use in more complex gameplay simulation.

That said, I suppose the artists would still get the short end of the stick to some extent since final renders would have to be evaluated between stretches of fast iteration. But it still beats the traditional / naive approach where you have no real-time fallback to speak of.

 

[InfiniteCombo]

Do I like fixed camera games? I don't know, let me check my avatar...


..... Yes, yes I do

 

[Reverend Speed]

Shifty Good heavens, there's a lot to think about there.

I guess you could bake max quality frames for weaker target platforms, but... outside of doing something like the introduction to Parasite Eve 2, wouldn't this limit the development of shots with interactive pans, dollies, zooms, etc? It's obviously possible, but... honestly, I'm not sure if the benefits of supporting that output would outweigh the costs of having to support it during production, the constraints it would otherwise place on designing environments...? No?

Regards the G buffer... man, I can't find the reference, but doesn't Resident Evil 0 do something like this? I seem to recall that it uses captured normal maps et al to provide some level of realtime lighting on the backgrounds. My memory is a bit foggy on this, and I can't find the reference videos I'd encountered before demonstrating the buffers, frustratingly... I guess you could do this with a modern game, but as you say, it's a pain in the ass for the artists.

Interesting ideas, though. I'm trying to think of the 'more complex gameplay simulation' you'd use in a cinematically presented game like that...!

InfiniteCombo Ayyy! =D Well, if you like fixed multicam games, consider dropping by our birthday celebration raffle, you might win another fixed camera game... =D

 

[kiphalfton]

Still love it

Yeah there's so much crap packed into levels now, that I will never look at let alone see even if I did look. Fixed camera angles force you to focus on particular elements in that shot. Love it like you said.

 

[Isa]

Nice thread. I appreciate and miss this form of visuals in games. Some of them are genuinely beautiful as well. I've played a game recently that I'd considered making a thread for, but I'm shy teehee. Anyway the game is Shin Chan: me and the professor on summer vacation. Its out on Switch and PC, as is a relaxing, charming and occasionally funny adventure game. I remember seeing this on a handheld several years ago, DS or 3DS iirc, and it seemed like it'd never get a western release. I was stunned seeing it available for preorder on the Eshop and so I bought it right away, it was only 17 dollerydoos roughly as well which is even sweeter. The backgrounds are really nice, in fact the art is a main draw for me.

 

[Shifty]

Shifty Good heavens, there's a lot to think about there.

I guess you could bake max quality frames for weaker target platforms, but... outside of doing something like the introduction to Parasite Eve 2, wouldn't this limit the development of shots with interactive pans, dollies, zooms, etc? It's obviously possible, but... honestly, I'm not sure if the benefits of supporting that output would outweigh the costs of having to support it during production, the constraints it would otherwise place on designing environments...? No?

Yeah, the final product would still be subject to the same limitations as the fixed-camera titles of old - the realtime part is solely there to accelerate development, since you'd want the end result to be offline rendered for all target platforms to guarantee consistency of visuals and performance.

Practicality-wise, it wouldn't be too big of a stretch to bridge a keyed animation editor with an offline baker. The real kicker would still be the render times, since moving the camera even one frame is going to double the time cost.

It's certainly not an approach you'd use for general purpose game dev, but would be great for a project where the design level expectations are already geared around a PE2 / REmake style experience.

Regards the G buffer... man, I can't find the reference, but doesn't Resident Evil 0 do something like this? I seem to recall that it uses captured normal maps et al to provide some level of realtime lighting on the backgrounds. My memory is a bit foggy on this, and I can't find the reference videos I'd encountered before demonstrating the buffers, frustratingly... I guess you could do this with a modern game, but as you say, it's a pain in the ass for the artists.

Yeah, REmake and RE0 use a hybrid approach, though I think it's limited to the depth buffer and maybe some lighting channels since it was still early days for programmable shaders at that point.

Interesting ideas, though. I'm trying to think of the 'more complex gameplay simulation' you'd use in a cinematically presented game like that...!

The dead easy answer is "more characters at once" - fixed camera dynasty warriors here we come!

More generally, you could do higher-fidelity physics for secondary character animation like hair and cloth, or CPU particles that can make two-way interactions with gameplay objects instead of being a one-way visual-only deal as they are on the GPU.

Fire that can spread and burn things, water that acts like real water instead of weird clear goop - all the nifty simulation stuff that tends to pop up in youtube tech demos but never gets picked up by game studios because it's too expensive to live alongside a game on a console CPU.

 

[alucard0712_rus]

Gran Turismo replays has excellent camera views

 

[Reverend Speed]

Isa - That looks FANTASTIC! Much obliged, I've added this to the https://steamcommunity.com/groups/fixedcamera]Fixed Camera Appreciation Society[/url] list...! (That's cheered me up a bit over the https://imgur.com/a/3eVtC6x]Alone in the Dark information[/url])

Shifty - I do like the idea of more fire propagation. I really enjoyed it in Far Cry 2 and Alone in the Dark 2008. It's a fun tool to hand players enough rope to hang themselves...! I'm not very technical, but I would like to play around with some of those simulations you mention...

A alucard0712_rus - It'd be amusing to make a multiplayer racing game that uses the 'replay' camera views from racing games. Or the GTA cinematic views. Actually, I believe Little Big Adventure 2 handled driving in that way...

 

[supernova8]

Capcom could probably make a Resident Evil Remake Remake far closer to photorealistic if they employed the same techniques but with today's technological advances. Not sure how forgiving Gen Z would be of that tank controls (even I find it hard to go back to them).

 

[Reverend Speed]

Capcom could probably make a Resident Evil Remake Remake far closer to photorealistic if they employed the same techniques but with today's technological advances. Not sure how forgiving Gen Z would be of that tank controls (even I find it hard to go back to them).

Hmm. There's a variety of alternatives to tank control, now, though... I thought the control system that shipped with the first version of Heavy Rain was quite clever.

 

[64gigabyteram]

Wait, does prince of persia count? there are 2 modes, a normal camera follow mode and the landscape camera mode which is more reminiscent of fixed camera games, but also pulls the camera wayyy back, to the point you can hardly see the character

 

[Reverend Speed]

Ooo. Interesting point. Hmm. On the Fixed Camera Appreciation Society we've included some games that really stretch the definition, soo... Gonna have to play that again and see, I guess...

 

[Reverend Speed]

We just went live with our birthday announcement on the Fixed Camera Appreciation Society! Swing by and help us celebrate with free fixed cam game keys! =D

 

[GymWolf]

Czech cabins has a nice collection of fixed camera angle emh...looking simulators

Spoiler

 

[Amiga]

A game can use both. Persona 5 used this well, mixed in moving camera areas with cinematic fixed camera areas.

 

[adamsapple]

Wait, does prince of persia count? there are 2 modes, a normal camera follow mode and the landscape camera mode which is more reminiscent of fixed camera games, but also pulls the camera wayyy back, to the point you can hardly see the character

I wouldn't, personally. That's like qualifying the MGS games as first person shooters because you can view and shoot in first person as well.

 

[Reverend Speed]

Amiga , adamsapple - We're fairly loose with the definitions on Fixed Camera Appreciation Society - so many of the best games that use the approach switch it up, going to first person, side-on. I haven't played Prince of Persia in a while, but if much of the game can be played from the Fixed Cam perspective, I think we'd probably include it.

 

[adamsapple]

Amiga , adamsapple - We're fairly loose with the definitions on Fixed Camera Appreciation Society - so many of the best games that use the approach switch it up, going to first person, side-on. I haven't played Prince of Persia in a while, but if much of the game can be played from the Fixed Cam perspective, I think we'd probably include it.

To the best of my recollection the camera perspective changes can be used in some places to map out locations for puzzle/climbing spots.

But I haven't played it in over a decade either so I can't say 100%.

 

[Danknugz]

 

[jonnyXx]

The spectacle of the God of War 3 opening has yet to be topped.

 

[Reverend Speed]

Isn't that more, uh, isometric? Definitely not fixed multicam. But what a banger of a game, nonetheless...!

 

[Reverend Speed]

New Fixed Multicam game announced during the recent Haunted PS1 EEK3 event - 10 Dead Doves! It's always nice when developers realise that the PS1 aesthetic doesn't preclude them from including a little cinematography and composition...!

 

[Reverend Speed]

Isa - Thought you might be interested in this, given you referenced the Shin Chan game. =D (Although, gosh, that's expensive on Steam)


Going to be a bumper year for fixed multicam games, it looks like - we're excited at the Fixed Camera Appreciation Society!

 

[01011001]

I just started re-playing Onimusha 2 on Series X via XBSX2. that fighting system still feels really nice. which is something most people wouldn't expect from a fixed camera game with tank controls.

I never finished it, and am currently playing PS2 games I either never finished or never played, fueled by the arrival of XBSX2 which makes PS2 emulation more comfortable than ever.

and playing PS2 games is so fucking refreshing. every game plays and feels differently from one another so far, because back then games weren't even remotely as homogenised as they are today. fixed camera tank controls samurai game... a high profile title like that would be an impossibility nowadays even tho it plays really well, doesn't matter, everything has to have the same basic gameplay these days

 

[Reverend Speed]

Worth noting, there's a new, gorgeous-looking survival horror fixed multicam adventure out on Steam - Broken Pieces! This game just looks beautiful... and it's made by only 5 people!

There's also a big update to Alisa - lots of new enemies, locations, weapons, costumes... seeeecrets... It's a really inventive, charming PS1-style game, from a single developer!

Both games are on sale at the moment - it's a good time for the Fixed Camera Appreciation Society! =D

 

[Reverend Speed]

Just a couple more cool fixed multicam games...

OBSERVO
If Silent Hill pushed through the mold of early Resident Evil games sounds good to you, you should check out Observo! Fair warning, though, might be worth playing on 'Easy', there's a bit of a difficulty cliff...
...

THE HOTEL
Absolutely gonzo classic Resident Evil action - the essence of 'good b-movie' condensed into a game! Definitely janky in places, but with a very responsive and involved developer.
...
Both of these games are 99% produced by single developers and are definitely worth a look from fans of Fixed Multicam games!
...
Lastly (for the moment) it's worth mentioning...

POST TRAUMA
With a trailer shown at the last Game Awards and backing from publisher Raw Fury, this is definitely one to watch for fixed multicam fans!

 

[ProgenitorCastle]

Not really a typical pick, but any lovers of action games and fixed cameras should check out Devil May Cry. It's a gorgeous mix of fixed and panning camera design. The atmosphere is so top notch too.

 

[Reverend Speed]

Not really a typical pick, but any lovers of action games and fixed cameras should check out Devil May Cry. It's a gorgeous mix of fixed and panning camera design. The atmosphere is so top notch too.

Great choice. I remember me and my friend's astonishment with the visuals as Dante approached the castle in the first game - some gorgeous fixed perspective tricks there. And DMC3 is a complete classic, of course. We feature the compilation on the Fixed Camera Appreciation Society - BLAST off!

 

[Reverend Speed]

Two new fixed multicam games came out recently - worth a look!

CANNIBAL ABDUCTION
A new VHX/PSX stalker slasher from the makers of The Night of the Scissors...!

Lake Haven - Chrysalis
An investigation into a missing persons case unfolds into a something infinitely stranger and more deadly...

Cannibal Abduction is currently on introductory sale. Chrysalis is only €2.99 and is a prologue for the main Lake Haven game...!

 

[Reverend Speed]

Echoes of the Living

Resident Evil 1 Remake... is that you? No... NO! You're something stranger, newer, with updated visuals and fully 3D environments! Here comes a fresh take on the classics!

Tokyo Stories

An artistic and beautiful game about lonely teens who find themselves in a strangely empty Tokyo! From a team of experienced fixed multicam devs (see 'rain' for PS3) ...we can't wait!

Betrayal at Club Low (with THREE nominations at the Independent Game Festival!)

Breathes fresh air into the fixed multicam approach: this rpg-come-music-video-come-spy-thriller offers a host of cunning mechanics and entertaining situations thrumming below its avant garde hood!

Heartworm Demo

Graphically strong, with a lovely character design and a brooding atmosphere - we can't wait for more gameplay and narrative details at the Fixed Camera Appreciation Society!

The Mansion of Evil
https://lostbullet.itch.io/the-mansion-of-evil

A kooky, spooky and altogether gory night spent with five streamers in a mansion that's going straight to hell. Laugh! Cry! Marvel at the cute dog...!

---

Finally - there's a huge update to The Hotel coming down the line! The game is absolute madness - and it's only getting crazier!

 

[Reverend Speed]

CONGRATULATIONS TO COSMO D! BRILLIANT FIXED MULTICAM GAME WINS IGF GRAND PRIZE!