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[*Splinter]

I didn't want to disagree with the op because there's always room for improvement but... those are some point chosen examples, and the east v west slant is just begging for a derail.

 

[Alo0oy]

In Asia lighter skin being more preferable than dark skin predates European colonialism. Light skin means you don't have to work in the fields, dark skin means you do. Colonialism probably did reinforce that image though.

And the Japanese think Caucasians are the superior race? I'd really like to see receipts for that one.

It's not just about colorism, a lot of people in Asia want to look Caucasian, that's internalized racism, which is a result of white supremacy.

The above is well documented/researched and you can find out a lot about it with a simple google search.

 

[Alo0oy]

That old and unrelated argument again. The desire for light skin in various Asian societies is older than the first contact with any Europeans.

But you are just trying to sidestep from your persons of color claim anyway.

Japan has been using white maiko makeup since the 1600s. At what point did white supremacy reach them to enact this change?

White supremacy will obviously have carry-overs from imperialism. Kipling famously described imperialism as, "The white man's duty". But extrapolating this argument to try and incorporate every single nation and culture to make your point seem more dire is just making your argument weak.

I was not talking about colorism, I was talking about how people just wanting to look Caucasian, or as close to them as possible, it's a white supremacist phenomena that effects every part of this planet, you can't dismiss the effect of white supremacy on the global south just because it makes you uncomfortable.

 

[PdotMichael]

I was not talking about colorism, I was talking about how people just wanting to look Caucasian, or as close to them as possible, it's a white supremacist phenomena that effects every part of this planet, you can't dismiss the effect of white supremacy on the global south just because it makes you uncomfortable.

Even if we accept what you say. This isn't even white supremacy.

 

[UltimaPooh]

Maybe Sobra? Does she count?

Hells yea Sombra counts.

 

[Akainu]

Rather the afro than brown woman with straight hair. The day i can give a black female character a high top fade. Mmm.

 

[Chuckie]

It's not just about colorism, a lot of people in Asia want to look Caucasian, that's internalized racism, which is a result of white supremacy.

The above is well documented/researched and you can find out a lot about it with a simple google search.

I asked you to show me receipts about the Japanese thinking cauchasians are the superior race. You made that statement, so you should offer the proof.

 

[ScaryShark]

I'm sure afros (and similar) weren't the only popular hairstyle in the 60s and two of the games in the OP aren't even set in that era.

This thread has been over your mischaracterization of what an afro actually entails because a lot of your examples aren't actually afros.

I can't talk about A Way Out's character since the game isn't out yet but

Grace Walker: Leader of the fictional 'Black Revolutionary Front' which obviously borrows from very real black resistance movements. A lot of the most famous and influential Black Panther Party members literally had afros as a statement.

Roxy Laveau: Again, a politically motivated character in the 60s. She's a lieutenant in a black nationalist/socialist organization. She's also pretty clearly a homage to Pam Grier's Foxy Brown character in the film of the same name.

You called out accurate portrayals of women of color, most of which were actually praised for being accurate by a journalist who shares the same race.

You then offer up cartoonish 'persons of color' in fantasy games as good examples of diversity. You seem to just prefer cartoons compared to actual, realistic portrayals of black women. That's cool (I guess), but it doesn't make sense for your thread title.

 

[Alo0oy]

Even if we accept what you say. This isn't even white supremacy.

It absolutely is. White supremacy isn't just the KKK or Neo Nazis, part of it was implemented during European colonialism that makes people feel they're inferior because they're not Caucasian. White supremacy is where there's a hierarchy, and Caucasians are on top of that hierarchy.

 

[neojubei]

Don't forget Horizon Zero Dawn. Lot of prominent people of colour in that story, and none of them appear 'generic'.

This is Sona, War Chief of the Nora Tribe and one of the game's biggest badasses. Pictured here with her son:

Horizon zero dawn is such an awesome game with a great diverse cast of characters.

 

[PdotMichael]

It absolutely is. White supremacy isn't just the KKK or Neo Nazis, part of it was implemented during European colonialism that makes people feel they're inferior because they're not Caucasian. White supremacy is where there's a hierarchy, and Caucasians are on top of that hierarchy.

White Supremacy is a racist ideology with the goal to archive dominance over any other races or ethnics or atleast are enjoying structural advantages.

This isn't the case in Japan or other Asian societies.

 

[GLAMr]

WHAT!!? I'm gussing you also find Ishvalan from Fullmetal Alchemist offensive?

I don't know if you're doing a bit or not... I had to google that character. I would say that Ishvalan or Kat aren't inherently offensive; it just seems to be offensive to hold them up as pillars of inclusion.

Regarding lighter skin in Asian countries, part of it is also a class thing. Poor people are more likely to have jobs where they work in the sun, and are therefore likely to have darker skin. Having light skin is a symbol of affluence and wealth.

 

[Alo0oy]

I asked you to show me receipts about the Japanese thinking cauchasians are the superior race. You made that statement, so you should offer the proof.

What kind of receipts do you actually want? Asian people talking about white supremacy in Asia? Because I know the people that dismiss white supremacy always want a "physical proof" for something that is easily observed by anyone living in any country in the world. There isn't a single country not affected by white supremacy.

 

[./revy]

I was not talking about colorism, I was talking about how people just wanting to look Caucasian, or as close to them as possible, it's a white supremacist phenomena that effects every part of this planet, you can't dismiss the effect of white supremacy on the global south just because it makes you uncomfortable.

There is a certain irony in talking about being dismissive while actively doing just that. You are fighting a war right now. Every one who disagrees with any particular aspect of your ideals is disagreeing with the whole. You aren't making a real argument; you are just backing into a corner and are holding your own against anything that looks like an argument against you.

I have already agreed that whiteness is an issue on a global level. From the Brazillian TV personalities of the 80s and 90s, to Xuxa, to the modern idealization of European neo-liberalism creating a new wave of white idealization in South America. Recent historical events like the apartheid, etc.

You've decided to take the stance of, "This is equally applicable in every single situation" and given yourself a view that is untenable against examination. And that's fine if your goal is to simply hold yourself on a moral high ground above the masses while screaming, "I'm right!" But you aren't going to convince anyone who disagrees with you.

 

[Chuckie]

What kind of receipts do you actually want? Asian people talking about white supremacy in Asia? Because I know the people that dismiss white supremacy always want a "physical proof" for something that is easily observed by anyone living in any country in the world. There isn't a single country not affected by white supremacy.

Affected by White Supremacy does not equal the Japanese thinking that Caucasians are the superior race. You make a pretty bold statement and you have no way to back that up except the vague statement that Japanese want to look 'white'.

Oh and btw, I really resent that 'people that dismiss white supremacy' remark.

 

[PdotMichael]

It's a rather silly discussion. There is a set of terms which was invented to describe the situation in the USA or English speaking room, which of course can't be applied the same way to other parts of the world.

 

[Akainu]

Don't forget Horizon Zero Dawn. Lot of prominent people of colour in that story, and none of them appear 'generic'.

This is Sona, War Chief of the Nora Tribe and one of the game's biggest badasses. Pictured here with her son:

Civilization destroyed but they found some relaxer though.

 

[Prithee Be Careful]

No love for Iden Versio?

Looks like OP might have missed the mark on this one...

 

[blummer102]

They look that way because they are Japanese youth and not black

I think what you mean to say is that they are modeled off of Ganguro style and stuff like that. The only character of that list I posted who could concievably be a "Japanese youth" is maybe K'. Hell, Elena from Third Strike is supposed to be from KENYA.

 

[Alo0oy]

There is a certain irony in talking about being dismissive while actively doing just that. You are fighting a war right now. Every one who disagrees with any particular aspect of your ideals is disagreeing with the whole. You aren't making a real argument; you are just backing into a corner and are holding your own against anything that looks like an argument against you.

I have already agreed that whiteness is an issue on a global level. From the Brazillian TV personalities of the 80s and 90s, to Xuxa, to the modern idealization of European neo-liberalism creating a new wave of white idealization in South America. Recent historical events like the apartheid, etc.

You've decided to take the stance of, "This is equally applicable in every single situation" and given yourself a view that is untenable against examination. And that's fine if your goal is to simply hold yourself on a moral high ground above the masses while screaming, "I'm right!" But you aren't going to convince anyone who disagrees with you.

White Supremacy being "equally existing in every country" does not mean being "equally applicable in every situation". Yes, white supremacy exists everywhere, but it should be fought differently in different parts of the world, I don't know where you got the idea that it needs to be fought the same.

I know when I was a teenager I hated myself for having a darker skin than my siblings or my friends, it was horrible, that particular issue is common in "brown" regions, white supremacy affects people in other regions differently, that doesn't mean it exists less in there.

 

[Messofanego]

Looking at recent (2016 and beyond) prominent women of color in games released by or currently being developed at some of the big Western publishers, I can't help but notice a certain trend;

Roxy Laveau (Mafia III: Faster, Baby!) - Fro, hoop earrings.

Unnamed woman (A Way Out) - Slightly bigger fro, hoop earrings.

Grace Walker (Wolfenstein 2: The New Colossus) - Even bigger fro, hoop earrings.

These three are so similar they could almost be the same character at a different point in their lives. Roxy and the third chick are even wearing the same dark leather/red combo!

A Way Out is set in the 70s. Wolfenstein 2 and Mafia 3 are set in the 60s. They're going for the standard look of those times for sure, though. Wolfenstein 2's Grace Walker is also going for the black power movement vibes.

Oh post above already made the same point.

This thread has been over your mischaracterization of what an afro actually entails because a lot of your examples aren't actually afros.

I can't talk about A Way Out's character since the game isn't out yet but

Grace Walker: Leader of the fictional 'Black Revolutionary Front' which obviously borrows from very real black resistance movements. A lot of the most famous and influential Black Panther Party members literally had afros as a statement.

Roxy Laveau: Again, a politically motivated character in the 60s. She's a lieutenant in a black nationalist/socialist organization. She's also pretty clearly a homage to Pam Grier's Foxy Brown character in the film of the same name.

You called out accurate portrayals of women of color, most of which were actually praised for being accurate by a journalist who shares the same race.

You then offer up cartoonish 'persons of color' in fantasy games as good examples of diversity. You seem to just prefer cartoons compared to actual, realistic portrayals of black women. That's cool (I guess), but it doesn't make sense for your thread title.

 

[HK-47]

What kind of receipts do you actually want? Asian people talking about white supremacy in Asia? Because I know the people that dismiss white supremacy always want a "physical proof" for something that is easily observed by anyone living in any country in the world. There isn't a single country not affected by white supremacy.

Many East Asian people already have white skin. They didn't need Caucasians to start preferring whiter skin.

 

[Mista Koo]

Overwatch gave us Ana, a badass Egyptian grandma with an actual Arabic voice actor speaking in Arabic. I really wish this wasn't something exciting or surprising. Heck even the other Arab character in the game (her daughter) doesn't have either!

Destiny 2 gave us Suraya Hawthorne. Can't say much since I haven't finished the campaign, but she's a major character whose outfit is at least hijab inspired.

Not necessarily a major character, but Horizon gave us Samina Ebadji, a hijabi

Spoiler

world-class scientist

.

Now let's look at the equivalent examples in the OP. From Zelda, my GOTY, we have a race of belly dancers who are literally exoticized by other characters in the game. Oh and Menat, a fortune teller/dancer who has an outfit made entirely out of mummy wraps.

 

[Alo0oy]

Destiny 2 gave us Suraya Hawthorne. Can't say much since I haven't finished the campaign, but she's a major character whose outfit is at least hijab inspired.

.

Suraya is also an Arabic female name.

 

[Usobuko]

The western side did it better.

The Japanese ones seems like dark skinned characters must have eurocentric aesthetics slapped with straight hair whereas the western ones have more diversity.

This is more of Japan vs West thread.

And I'm probably the only one that is sure that the western model is shit for every non western countries if it persist to be the dominant culture because at the end of day, diversity are token characters. You have more variety and breadth of white characters than everyone else put together, and they represents like 90% of the main characters, especially in blockbuster games.

 

[Tazmin]

White Supremacy being "equally existing in every country" does not mean being "equally applicable in every situation". Yes, white supremacy exists everywhere, but it should be fought differently in different parts of the world, I don't know where you got the idea that it needs to be fought the same.

I know when I was a teenager I hated myself for having a darker skin than my siblings or my friends, it was horrible, that particular issue is common in "brown" regions, white supremacy affects people in other regions differently, that doesn't mean it exists less in there.

What you are talking about is colourism then which other posters have said predates European colonialism
Issues of colourism can exist independently from white supremacy as others have said, lighter means rich, darker means poor. No one is taking away from your experiences but you should be careful in your choice of words

 

[KonradLaw]

And I'm probably the only one that is sure that the western model is shit for every non western countries if it persist to be the dominant culture because at the end of day, diversity are token characters. You have more variety and breadth of white characters than everyone else put together, and they represents like 90% of the main characters, especially in blockbuster games.

Well, majority of people in countries where those games are made are white, so it's pretty natural. The beauty of gaming is that it's the only truly worldwide medium, so with time the number of devs from non western countries is bound to increase and with it diversity that goes beyong token characters.

 

[Mista Koo]

Suraya is also an Arabic female name.

Kinda, an Arab would spell it Thuraya. That alongside her headdress style suggest that she is Desi, with her last name perhaps she is British Pakistani.

 

[HK-47]

Well, majority of people in countries where those games are made are white, so it's pretty natural. The beauty of gaming is that it's the only truly worldwide medium, so with time the number of devs from non western countries is bound to increase and with it diversity that goes beyong token characters.

Wait how is it the only worldwide medium?

 

[rochellepaws]

On the subject of diversity, does an Irish person exist in videogames who isn't an American Irish Boston stereotype of drunkenness and leprechaunisms?
There is a general problem with representation in the gaming industry which stems from a disproportional level of development teams being male, white, americans compared to the global and diverse audience.

 

[Alo0oy]

Kinda, an Arab would spell it Thuraya. That alongside her headdress style suggest that she is Desi, with her last name perhaps she is British Pakistani.

Yeah, Arabic spelling differs, so you're right, she's either Desi or Persian.

 

[KonradLaw]

Wait how is it the only worldwide medium?

It;s the only one where devs from pretty much every country can compete (now or will be in future). if you look at any other mediums they are dominated by one of at best couple countries. We might adore French and British dramas, get exctied about Korean thriller or have our jaws dropped by HongKong/Indonesian action flicks, but none of those movies will come even remotely close to boxoffice numbers american movies make. Same thing happens with TV, where americans dominate completely, with brits, koreans and scandinavians being on distant second place far behind americans. In comics it's all about americans and japanese sales-wise too.

Music and novels are the more worldwide , but even there majority of big releases come from limited number of countries and even there they rarely happen to cross civilizational lines, so for example novel or music from asia is rarely seen making any truly big dent in western world.

 

[Isotropy]

I was not talking about colorism, I was talking about how people just wanting to look Caucasian, or as close to them as possible, it's a white supremacist phenomena that effects every part of this planet, you can't dismiss the effect of white supremacy on the global south just because it makes you uncomfortable.

Since when is Japan the global south?!

 

[HK-47]

It;s the only one where devs from pretty much every country can compete (now or will be in future). if you look at any other mediums they are dominated by one of at best couple countries. We might adore French and British dramas, get exctied about Korean thriller or have our jaws dropped by HongKong/Indonesian action flicks, but none of those movies will come even remotely close to boxoffice numbers american movies make. Same thing happens with TV, where americans dominate completely, with brits, koreans and scandinavians being on distant second place far behind americans. In comics it's all about americans and japanese sales-wise too.

Music and novels are the more worldwide , but even there majority of big releases come from limited number of countries and even there they rarely happen to cross civilizational lines, so for example novel or music from asia is rarely seen making any truly big dent in western world.

I think you are really underestimating euro comics there. Especially British ones, given how many of the best writers in American comics are English or Irish.

 

[Alo0oy]

It;s the only one where devs from pretty much every country can compete (now or will be in future). if you look at any other mediums they are dominated by one of at best couple countries. We might adore French and British dramas, get exctied about Korean thriller or have our jaws dropped by HongKong/Indonesian action flicks, but none of those movies will come even remotely close to boxoffice numbers american movies make. Same thing happens with TV, where americans dominate completely, with brits, koreans and scandinavians being on distant second place far behind americans. In comics it's all about americans and japanese sales-wise too.

Music and novels are the more worldwide , but even there majority of big releases come from limited number of countries and even there they rarely happen to cross civilizational lines, so for example novel or music from asia is rarely seen making any truly big dent in western world.

How is that any different in video games? Video Games made in the Middle East sell like 0 units, Arabic movies/drama do significantly better in their home region than Arabic video games that nobody is even aware of their existence. It's actually quite the opposite, video games are the one entertainment medium where "local" productions fail consistently compared to movies/music.

It's not just the Middle East either, I really doubt video games made in other markets do better locally than movies/music do either.

And if they fail spectacularly locally, they do even worse worldwide. It's a limitation of the video games medium, each region has a "preferred" platform, so you can't as easily cross regional lines as movies and music because they're platform-agnostic.

 

[HK-47]

On the subject of diversity, does an Irish person exist in videogames who isn't an American Irish Boston stereotype of drunkenness and leprechaunisms?
There is a general problem with representation in the gaming industry which stems from a disproportional level of development teams being male, white, americans compared to the global and diverse audience.

Technically Aiden Pearce is Irish born. But I'd rather have a bunch of drunken Irish stereotypes than that.

 

[KonradLaw]

I think you are really underestimating euro comics there. Especially British ones, given how many of the best writers in American comics are English or Irish.

Not really sales-wise though. Franch/Belgian comics are virtually unknown outside Europe. You can even look at the current Neogaf comic threads and barely anyone ever talks about them (which is tragedy). And british writers usually get really big only when they start to write for american companies. There are exceptions of course, but even if you would manage to squeeze brits in, it would still just be one more country in the short list of the few that dominate comicbooks worldwide.

 

[HK-47]

Not really sales-wise though. Franch/Belgian comics are virtually unknown outside Europe. You can even look at the current Neogaf comic threads and barely anyone ever talks about them (which is tragedy). And british writers usually get really big only when they start to write for american companies. There are exceptions of course, but even if you would manage to squeeze brits in, it would still just be one more country in the short list of the few that dominate comicbooks worldwide.

Comics GAF barely talks about anything that isn't the big two unless it's a breakout hit. Even good Image/Vertigo/IDW stuff has a tough time getting words in edgewise

 

[KonradLaw]

How is that any different in video games? .

big worldwide hits in videogames come from far bigger number of countries than other mediums. That's how it's different. We might not get big middle eastern hits, but we have plenty from other Asian countries.

There are still differences in wealth and educations that mean some countries aren't represented, but in every case it seems like only a matter of time. It's already starting. Look Mount&Blade series, which is done by turkish developer and it's big on PC, with people from pretty much entire world playing it and making mods for it. And with M&B2 being highly anticipated we have a clearn pattern of it not being one hit wonder, but a series that's consistently growing it's fanbase. There;s no way any middle eastern song or movie will get regular Poles, Americans anc Chinese gamers anticipating the release date, while Mount & Blade does exactly that.

 

[MrHoot]

Because of this dumb thread I decided to make my inktober for today a design I would really like. I actually really want to use her for a future game of mine now :V
¨
(yes i do like Jojo shut up)

 

[Alo0oy]

big worldwide hits in videogames come from far bigger number of countries than other mediums. That's how it's different. We might not get big middle eastern hits, but we have plenty from other Asian countries.

There are still differences in wealth and educations that mean some countries aren't represented, but in every case it seems like only a matter of time. It's already starting. Look Mount&Blade series, which is done by turkish developer and it's big on PC, with people from pretty much entire world playing it and making mods for it. And with M&B2 being highly anticipated we have a clearn pattern of it not being one hit wonder, but a series that's consistently growing it's fanbase. There;s no way any middle eastern song or movie will get regular Poles, Americans anc Chinese gamers anticipating the release date, while Mount & Blade does exactly that.

But that's insignificant compared to the success of movies and music, video games are lagging behind, and the main reason as I said previously is that they're platform-agnostic. VGs have an inherent limitation, and right now only mobile is breaking down that barrier, because it is as close to platform-agnostic as video games are going to get.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

OP doesn't know what an afro is.

Just chiming in to say how glad I am these kinds of threads have their fallacies quickly pointed out.

 

[KORNdoggy]

there does seem to be a stereotypical trend in western games of late. but japan seems scared to make an actual dark skinned woman. they almost just look tanned.

 

[NEO0MJ]

there does seem to be a stereotypical trend in western games of late. but japan seems scared to make an actual dark skinned woman. they almost just look tanned.

Most Japanese developers are big fans of ambiguous brown characters, which makes it hard to pin exactly what ethnicity a character belongs to. I guess on the plus side more people can see themselves in those characters. Look how often people argue about whether the Gerudo are Arab or African!

 

[Star Orpheus]

On the subject of diversity, does an Irish person exist in videogames who isn't an American Irish Boston stereotype of drunkenness and leprechaunisms?
There is a general problem with representation in the gaming industry which stems from a disproportional level of development teams being male, white, americans compared to the global and diverse audience.

Henry from No More Heroes? He's got an Irish accent but is in his own words a "cool handsome foil" to the main character. Probably not what your looking for but he was the first thing I thought of.

Warning spoilers, language, and Suda 51.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uZEg4iBNV_4

 

[Lord of Ostia]

Not sure why OP is taking issue with black female characters having natural hairstyles. That should be seen as a good thing, seeing as natural black hair is usually discouraged by most media.

 

[Herp Derpington]

I don't think the thread went exactly how the OP envisioned it would go. Western devs are doing a much better job of this than Japanese devs. I mean it's not even close. OP needs to revaluate their stance on this.

 

[EdwardTeach]

Looking at recent (2016 and beyond) prominent women of color in games released by or currently being developed at some of the big Western publishers, I can't help but notice a certain trend;

Roxy Laveau (Mafia III: Faster, Baby!) - Fro, hoop earrings.

Unnamed woman (A Way Out) - Slightly bigger fro, hoop earrings.

Grace Walker (Wolfenstein 2: The New Colossus) - Even bigger fro, hoop earrings.

These three are so similar they could almost be the same character at a different point in their lives. Roxy and the third chick are even wearing the same dark leather/red combo!

Shani (Beyond Good & Evil 2)

Nadine Ross (Uncharted 4) - My favorite of the bunch, but you can still see the similarities. Has a less generic hairdo in the DLC.


While there seems to be a push for more women of color in recent western games, most end up looking very samey. The black chick with a kinky fro is the new buzzcut white guy. There's also a distinct lack of Hispanics, Indians and Middle Easterners, with Overwatch as one of the few exceptions.

Now let's look at Japan, which has also produced quite a few notable women of color recently;

Urbosa (The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild)

Riju (The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild)

Twintelle (ARMS)

Menat (Street Fighter V)

Laura (Street Fighter V)

Zarina (The King of Fighters XIV)

Olivia (Pokemon Sun & Moon)

Marina (Splatoon 2) - not a human character, though her appearance is obviously meant to evoke a black girl.


There's a lot more variety here. Why is Japan, one of the least diverse countries on Earth, able to create so many diverse women of color? Vacations aside, most of these character designers probably haven't set foot outside Japan and yet are doing a much better job than their Westerm counterparts, who are a lot closer to the ongoing conversations about diversity in gaming (not to mention actual women of color).

Are Western (non-indie) developers actually trying, or are they just shoehorning stereotypical "strong women of color" into their games for diversity points?

You have been very selective with your western games selection. For example order 1886, tomb raider, horizon zero dawn, etc etc

 

[Crossing Eden]

Not saying the point isn't true but the image is still completely stupid

For example the father and son I mentioned,
then you got another Black Ops 1 (supporting)character on there when that dude has Ice Cube with him almost the entire time

This is the person you play as in Black Ops 1:

The freaking boxart Battlefield 4 guy who is literally never seen in the game when actually these are the two main characters

A laughably hilarious example of a silent protagonist but at the same time, this is you:

You see him every time you start up the game.

Another generic COD character(a COD Brit at that), when that specific game has a black guy and female Russian just as relevant and more interesting.

A create a character is on there...

The point and subsequent problem is that the default is always brunette white guy always taking center stage. Because it took forever for pubs to realize that not only white people play games. Was way less common to get perspectives outside of that mold last gen than it is this gen.

Sadly seems like the original Spec-Ops main character was going to be middle eastern or something

but maybe they figured a White American would better fit what they were doing.

Critiquing the American military.