Support NeoGAF

[DenogginizerOS]

So let me get this straight. If I go out and buy Logitech's AWESOME wheel for PS2 that has force feedback in Gran Turismo 4, that same wheel won't provide FF on PS3?

 

[chespace]

So let me get this straight. If I go out and buy Logitech's AWESOME wheel for PS2 that has force feedback in Gran Turismo 4, that same wheel won't provide FF on PS3?

Somebody answer this question.

Because what it's basically asking is this: Do PS2 games played on PS3 have rumble like they were intended on the PS2?

 

[Luckyman]

http://threespeech.com/blog/?p=134

If, further down the line, there was a way of marrying the two technologies, would Sony consider it?

No, because we are making a standard controller. With the PS2 we made 160 million controllers. Once you have defined the format, you stick to it. Now, that doesn't prevent third party steering wheels having force feedback and obviously [Gran Turismo creator] Kazunori is going to be keen to have that. There will continue to be vertically integrated controllers like that, which a specific to an individual game.

 

[chespace]

Guess it's time to buy another steering wheel.

 

[PjotrStroganov]

http://threespeech.com/blog/?p=134

OMG, only a few minutes ago I have mailed the guys of ThreeSpeech with a question concering TFF.:lol



It looks like ehm. what does this mean? Every game will have its own wheel?


Edit: oh it is an old article. I don't know what to think.

 

[Gek54]

I really don't think GT1 or GT2 class cars have 900 degrees of steering wheel rotation either. You should see them trying to roll these cars out of the paddock area and onto the track. The turning radius looks to be about par to P1 or P2 cars.

For the sake of their fans, Sony needs to bend over -- NOW.

Are we trying to excuse the MS wheel only being a crappy 270 degrees? GT and P cars are generally 540 degrees and of course have linear steering, far from what the MS wheel is offering.

I think you really should be more concerned with MS bending over and supporting the G25 and or DFP for the sake of the Forza fans. If not, way to gimp 360 racing games for the next 4 years.

 

[skybaby]

I think you really should be more concerned with MS bending over and supporting the G25 and or DFP for the sake of the Forza fans. If not, way to gimp 360 racing games for the next 4 years.

Remember the leaked technical document, it will never happen, even if the team at turn10 wanted to.
We are SCREWED this gen.

 

[chespace]

Are we trying to excuse the MS wheel only being a crappy 270 degrees? GT and P cars are generally 540 degrees and of course have linear steering, far from what the MS wheel is offering.

I think you really should be more concerned with MS bending over and supporting the G25 and or DFP for the sake of the Forza fans. If not, way to gimp 360 racing games for the next 4 years.

I thought this was a thread about FF not supported on PS3? At least that was what my comments were directed at. Not an excuse for whatever bitching you have about the MS wheel.

 

[Gek54]

I thought this was a thread about FF not supported on PS3? At least that was what my comments were directed at. Not an excuse for whatever bitching you have about the MS wheel.

I dont know Che, seems like it is in the same realm of discussion since it seems the MS wheel might our only alternative to playing current gen console games with a TFF wheel. Even so I didnt bring up the MS wheel and you chose to respond to a MS wheel complaint beforehand so if you want to be bitching about people not staying perfectly in line with the thread title then you might want to check a mirror first.

No TFF = Gimped
270 degrees in anything other than an arcade or a F1 game = Gimped.

As is, current gen console racing = Gimped.

 

[DarkRage]

I dont know Che, seems like it is in the same realm of discussion since it seems the MS wheel might our only alternative to playing current gen console games with a TFF wheel. Even so I didnt bring up the MS wheel and you chose to respond to a MS wheel complaint beforehand so if you want to be bitching about people not staying perfectly in line with the thread title then you might want to check a mirror first.

No TFF = Gimped
270 degrees in anything other than an arcade or a F1 game = Gimped.

As is, current gen console racing = Gimped.

Yea, as we can watch on TV every F1 race or other race needs at least 1400 degrees.

Come on, you are racing on a race circuit, you don't turn the wheel more than a bunch of degrees.

 

[PjotrStroganov]

Yea, as we can watch on TV every F1 race or other race needs at least 1400 degrees.

Come on, you are racing on a race circuit, you don't turn the wheel more than a bunch of degrees.

Ever heard of drifting and opposite lock?

 

[Piscopink]

So let me get this straight. If I go out and buy Logitech's AWESOME wheel for PS2 that has force feedback in Gran Turismo 4, that same wheel won't provide FF on PS3?

CORRECT.

Somebody answer this question.

Because what it's basically asking is this: Do PS2 games played on PS3 have rumble like they were intended on the PS2?

NO.

 

[Gek54]

Yea, as we can watch on TV every F1 race or other race needs at least 1400 degrees.

Come on, you are racing on a race circuit, you don't turn the wheel more than a bunch of degrees.

Not every race circtuit has turns that you can take at 150mph. Have you not ever heard of a hairpin or understand the concept of linear steering? You also failed to grasp the fact that I mentioned F1 being the exception to using more than 270 degrees.

 

[Stinkles]

Not every race circtuit has turns that you can take at 150mph. Have you not ever heard of a hairpin or understand the concept of linear steering? You also failed to grasp the fact that I mentioned F1 being the exception to using more than 270 degrees.

NASCAR FTW!

PS., anyone seen what the percentage of GT users who only ever play with a pad is? It's a LOT. Think, 98+ percent. Which is why Sony probably doesn't really care.

I am actually more concerned about rumble personally. I wish they would just settle with Immersion for that. Any devs out there building support for a settled rumble-inclusive future?

 

[Gek54]

NASCAR FTW!

PS., anyone seen what the percentage of GT users who only ever play with a pad is? It's a LOT. Think, 98+ percent. Which is why Sony probably doesn't really care.

After GT3 they cared enough to team up with Logitech once a again to release a massively upgraded TFF wheel for GT4 and of course GT wasnt the only series to make exceptional use of the wheels either. *shrug*

How cool will sony look at all the gaming shows when all the racing games shown have people standing around using the POO(is that what the PS3 controller is still called?) while the 360 game booths are all set up with halfway decent TFF wheels?

I know when I go to the arcade, its the racing games that make me stand using a joystick that get all my quarters.

 

[Stinkles]

After GT3 they cared enough to team up with Logitech once a again to release a massively upgraded TFF wheel for GT4 and of course GT wasnt the only series to make exceptional use of the wheels either. *shrug*

How cool will sony look at all the gaming shows when all the racing games shown have people standing around using the POO(is that what the PS3 controller is still called?) while the 360 game booths are all set up with halfway decent TFF wheels?

I know when I go to the arcade, its the racing games that make me stand using a joystick that get all my quarters.

Of course, but Logitech had a lot more to gain than Sony, no? They must be pissed too.

 

[Gek54]

Of course, but Logitech had a lot more to gain than Sony, no? They must be pissed too.

I would imagine so.

 

[Zaptruder]

Of course, but Logitech had a lot more to gain than Sony, no? They must be pissed too.

I don't doubt everyone is a bit miffed about the situation, albeit for different reasons.

I'd imagine PD would be pretty incensed about it too; given Kaz's perfectionist nature.

How much it galls to make such a detailed refined racer only to have the very interface between the player and the game fall back to pre 2000 levels. It's ridiculous. I fully hope that whoever or whatever is blocking TFF on Sony console/games redresses the situation before GT5's release.

 

[railGUN]

Put simply, if I can't use my DFP wheel to play GTHD or GT5, then I won't be playing them. Period. I love the GT series, but I'd rather play GT4 on my PS2 with my wheel, regardless of how good GTHD/5 look and feel.

 

[Luckyman]

NFS: Carbon has TFF on PS3?

what

 

[jet1911]

What about GTR2 for 360, does that have FF support?

IIRC every racing game from now on will have to support MS racing wheel.

 

[Big Takeover]

Of course, but Logitech had a lot more to gain than Sony, no? They must be pissed too.

I'd imagine things aren't particularly rosy with Microsoft these days either. Next Gen has not been good to Logitech thus far.

 

[shantyman]

If I were a racing fan I would be pissed:

This about sums it up. A feature less than 5% of the population will use, but will get a 500 post thread by people who "care" about it.

 

[kammy]

In my prius the steering wheel is always very smooth, no shaking ever when I drive. Your cars must be cheap.

:lol:

My Alfa has a 220 degree turning lock, steering is sharp. Although when I take a turn too fast, like any decent sporty car, I can feel the resistance. Not as much as when I play GT4 but then again, im only going 40mph :d

Get a decent car dude.

 

[Gek54]

:lol:

My Alfa has a 220 degree turning lock, steering is sharp. Although when I take a turn too fast, like any decent sporty car, I can feel the resistance. Not as much as when I play GT4 but then again, im only going 40mph :d

Get a decent car dude.

I am not familiar with an Alfa with less than 600 degrees, what model do you have?

 

[KTallguy]

This is very important.

Sony needs to support these wheels.

I'm sure there will be some sort of development/compromise.

In the end though, you'll probably have to buy another wheel.

Spoiler

And you will buy it. YOU WILL BUY IT.

:lol :lol :lol

 

[Gek54]

Looks like the story hit Digg.com too.

PS3 Steering Wheels Won’t Have Force Feedback. At All.
Posted by Michael Cardiff

PS2 Gran Turismo Steering WheelIt’s old news by now that the PS3 controller doesn’t have force feedback built into it - it’s just one of those things that you’ll have to deal with if you decide to go with Sony’s expensive new console. What’s new, breaking news to us is the fact that the PS3 doesn’t even know how to transmit a signal telling ANY controller to vibrate or give force-feedback. And for all you racing fanatics out there, that means that Gran Turismo 5 on the PS3 is going to feel like you’re driving on ice.

Rumors that force feedback for the PS3 isn’t possible started circulating earlier this week on the NeoGAF forums, but just recently 1up.com received confirmation that, indeed, driving on the PS3 just isn’t going to be the same:

All PS3 games are programmed for the SIXAXIS which doesn’t have force feedback, therefore the force feedback in the wheels won’t be recognized.

Yikes. Looks like the Xbox 360 may soon become the console of choice for driving fans.

 

[arne]

Not every race circtuit has turns that you can take at 150mph. Have you not ever heard of a hairpin or understand the concept of linear steering? You also failed to grasp the fact that I mentioned F1 being the exception to using more than 270 degrees.

Yes, except on an F1 car, the steering wheel itself doesn't have a lot of turns to hit almost the opposite lock because, well, you don't really want to take your hands off the wheel if you want to hit opposite lock and do it in 0.001s or however insanely fast those drivers can react when something goes wrong.

Well, I mean the wheel does turn a lot, but for most of the driving on most of the circuits, you should be able to do it without ever taking a hand off the steering wheel, I guess that's my point.

 

[Gek54]

Yes, except on an F1 car, the steering wheel itself doesn't have a lot of turns to hit almost the opposite lock because, well, you don't really want to take your hands off the wheel if you want to hit opposite lock and do it in 0.001s or however insanely fast those drivers can react when something goes wrong.

Yes, thats good and all that the MS wheel is set if it ever needs to be used for an F1 car that can handle that small ratio because it has an insane amount of grip and rigidity but the thing is that Sony owns the F1 license and all other cars have a much larger range turning for good reason. The smallest lock-to-lock spec for a LMP1 car that I am aware of is well over a full turn and no car in Forza features a lock-to-lock of less than a full turn.

The main reason that a 900 degree wheel is important is because it allows for linear steering which is very important for simulation handling. Both Forza and GT3 only supported devices with a small lock-to-lock so they have to use steering aids to decrease the range the tires can turn as the car increases speed, otherwise the car would become VERY twitchy at high speeds and maintaining control would be extremely difficult. There are a few production cars that offer such a driving aid but the vast majority dont, especially sports cars, at least there are non that I have ever heard about.

270 degrees means you are forced with an unrealistic driving aid that could have been avoided if could use a 900 degree wheel.

There are some very old muscle cars that go over 900 degrees but thats a bit hard for even me to complain about.

 

[chubigans]

So basically 1up says force feedback isnt possible on the PS3...yet several games say otherwise. And SCEA basically confirms that games wont magically support rumble with the wheel plugged in...but in actuality WILL be supported if the dev chooses to program specifically for the wheel.

1up: news first, facts later. :lol

 

[Bad_Boy]

hmm..
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showpost.php?p=902670&postcount=5

Someone from Logitech commented on FF the other day:
http://forums.somethingawful.com/sho...ost320 730433

The Japenese version of GT:HD features force feedback support with the DFP. Also, Need for Speed: Carbon and Ridge Racer 7 both feature force feedback wheel support (Japan and US versions). NFS Carbon should support the G25's shifter as well, though I haven't personally been able to test it.

This does not necessarily mean that force feedback will be present in any titles going forward.

http://boardsus.playstation.com/playstation/board/message?board.id=ridgeracer&message.id=427

I was asked if the Force Feedback and Rumble features of the wheel works with RR7 and yes they do.
the wheel jerks when you crash and rumbles when driving over the few rocky road areas like in the Lost Ruins track.

Kazunori during TGS

 

[railGUN]

Yeah i'd love a more definitive answer on this now. I read NFS did support it, I've read no games will at all ever, that Japanese PS3 users did have TFF on GTHD before an update, and that some games attempt to support it, but it's not TFF at all, more like the wheel glitching out. I also saw some reference to a new Logitech wheel for PS3, on the official PS3 forums that was released in Japan already.

 

[arne]

Yes, thats good and all that the MS wheel is set if it ever needs to be used for an F1 car that can handle that small ratio because it has an insane amount of grip and rigidity but the thing is that Sony owns the F1 license and all other cars have a much larger range turning for good reason. The smallest lock-to-lock spec for a LMP1 car that I am aware of is well over a full turn and no car in Forza features a lock-to-lock of less than a full turn.

The main reason that a 900 degree wheel is important is because it allows for linear steering which is very important for simulation handling. Both Forza and GT3 only supported devices with a small lock-to-lock so they have to use steering aids to decrease the range the tires can turn as the car increases speed, otherwise the car would become VERY twitchy at high speeds and maintaining control would be extremely difficult. There are a few production cars that offer such a driving aid but the vast majority dont, especially sports cars, at least there are non that I have ever heard about.

270 degrees means you are forced with an unrealistic driving aid that could have been avoided if could use a 900 degree wheel.

There are some very old muscle cars that go over 900 degrees but thats a bit hard for even me to complain about.

I also realized I missed half the point you were making going farther back in the thread.

So, yeah, I gotcha.

 

[Bad_Boy]

Stolen from B3D

Gran Turismo HD with Force Feedback Wheel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuG0bTJyjOA

 

[jet1911]

Stolen from B3D

Wow this guy is good. :O

 

[Bad_Boy]

Wow this guy is good. :O

I know. The funny part is the "nothing special" on his youtube movie summary. Rubbing it in?

I dont know what I'm more jealous of... his GT driving skills or the g25 hes using.

 

[Gek54]

It might not be true force feedback but the Buttkicker Gamer is better than nothing and would work for any game. I just got one and I highly recommend it from what I have played with it so far.

 

[mrklaw]

Nobody should be surprised by this. Controller peripherals pretty much always work by just sending the exact same signal a controller sends, but with differently shaped and positioned "buttons." Non-standard controllers don't get to just make up information that the console isn't already set up to deal with.

Surely DFP and 'proper' force feedback (not rumble) controllers needed some other information sent to them apart from 'oh you're going over a rumble strip'. They'd need to know how fast you're going round a corner to decide how much resistance to give etc.

so I don't see how Sony's comment makes sense. Games made for Dual Shock 2 with rumble still used different communications that those for the DFP.

It makes sense for those simple steering wheels with rumble support (because there won't be any rumble), but I'd still expect proper force feedback to be supported

 

[Gek54]

Surely DFP and 'proper' force feedback (not rumble) controllers needed some other information sent to them apart from 'oh you're going over a rumble strip'. They'd need to know how fast you're going round a corner to decide how much resistance to give etc.

so I don't see how Sony's comment makes sense. Games made for Dual Shock 2 with rumble still used different communications that those for the DFP.

It makes sense for those simple steering wheels with rumble support (because there won't be any rumble), but I'd still expect proper force feedback to be supported

If 3rd party cant make rumble Dualshock like controllers for the PS3 then I would think wheels would fall under that same problem since they are also immersion tech.

 

[Fafalada]

Games made for Dual Shock 2 with rumble still used different communications that those for the DFP.

Even without any FF/rumble, that communication will be quite different - because there's absolutely nothing alike between tuning inputs into driving physics for analog stick and a 720degree wheel.
That is - you can try to treat them the same, but the result will inevitably make the game unplayable on one of the two devices.

 

[chespace]

On Xbox 360, Microsoft provides 3rd party peripheral companies the APIs required to do FFB on the system -- which is perfectly legal since MS has settled with Immersion.

On PS3, Sony does not have the right to include FFB API code in software, nor do they have the right to grant 3rd parties those APIs to develop hardware that uses FFB. Unless they settle up with Immersion, I guess.

 

[Geezer]

On Xbox 360, Microsoft provides 3rd party peripheral companies the APIs required to do FFB on the system -- which is perfectly legal since MS has settled with Immersion.

Did you mean rumble instead of FFB?
Because if you didn't, surely this means there is a possibility of Logitech FFB goodness on the 360?

 

[PjotrStroganov]

As a result the uncertainty of FF being implemented in PS3 games is higher, but it is definitely not out of the question. When looking at the implementation of FF in PC games by almost all devs/publishers, there should be FF in every 3rd party game for PS3. 1st party.... who knows. It sucks.

 

[Fafalada]

On Xbox 360, Microsoft provides 3rd party peripheral companies the APIs required to do FFB on the system

I can't speak for the PS3 - but on PS2, Sony did diddly squat for the 3rd parties.
3rd parties (mainly Logitech really, virtually noone else mattered) provided their own APIs and drivers, and we used them.

On PS3, Sony does not have the right to include FFB API code in software, nor do they have the right to grant 3rd parties those APIs to develop hardware that uses FFB.

Someone already wrote drivers for PS3 and logitech wheels FFB though - as well as expose API to developers, because it works on all major racing titles.
If GTHD is any indication - only Sony 1st parties are subject to restrictions and that only on US hardware.

 

[chespace]

Did you mean rumble instead of FFB?
Because if you didn't, surely this means there is a possibility of Logitech FFB goodness on the 360?

I meant FFB. And no comment.

Fafalada: That's interesting. It was rumored that region would provide a loophole, so it's confirmed? And it's also confirmed that 3rd party games can use FFB all they like (i.e., RR7)?

 

[TONX]

GT5 simply wouldnt be a driving simulator without FFB. I hope they realize what they're doing to their rabid GT fanbase.

 

[DieH@rd]

Gran Turismo HD with Force Feedback Wheel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuG0bTJyjOA

He's very good...

 

[Fafalada]

Che,
I can confirm that in JP GT:HD, FF works perfectly, even in the latest version of the demo - but I am running on a Japanese machine. I don't have other region PS3s to test with.
US version of the demo has no FF (though I haven't tried latest one yet).
And yes, other titles like RR7 also have FF.

 

[Y2Kev]

He's very good...

Holy crap, it's like he's driving a real car.

 

[chespace]

Che,
I can confirm that in JP GT:HD, FF works perfectly, even in the latest version of the demo - but I am running on a Japanese machine. I don't have other region PS3s to test with.
US version of the demo has no FF (though I haven't tried latest one yet).
And yes, other titles like RR7 also have FF.

And the Japanese demo only works with Japanese PS3s? If so, I guess Sony will probably end up selling a lot more import versions of GT5 come 2008 or whenever.

What's the next 3rd party racing game for PS3? Wangan Midnight? I guess we'll see how third parties handle it down the road.