whyamihere
Banned
"I bet this is Willam"
*opens topic*
"Of course"
*opens topic*
"Of course"
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Former RuPaul Contestant Spews Justification For Trans Panic Murder Defense
- Thread starter Ekai
- Start date
Oh most are, even RuPaul, just they are used to being shockjocks. It is what they had to do to survive back in the day.
Sad thing is, modern ones should know better, and it seems like this William fellow is more a white guy wanting to be "accepted" again by the people that shunned him. Forgetting that they never liked the real him in the first place, but privilege is a hell of a drug... especially the withdrawal when it's taken away.
.That or he's playing a heel for attention, but in that case it's far more sinister as he's giving out pretty bad advice when he should just stay out of it and safe it for other occasions.
But I more think it is the first thing. Like what quite a few Gay men "suffer" from as well. They were from rich white families or middle class families, supposed to be well to do.. and suddenly it was all taken away. All that privilege, and the withdrawal is harsh for them. Sad people really
, but the worst bigots out there.Jup, people forget that it is how LGBTQI+ people used to survive. By making jokes, and making them OUR jokes. A bit like how Jewish people used to make the best Jew Jokes. Why? It's the best way to keep it from NAZIs. "What? you didn't think of that joke, Mel Brooks did, you're such a phony!" kind of reactions
. It means you sometimes hurt people though, but it comes from a good place and intention. Very different from this jerk that just excused a murder and is giving out very bad advice.Yes RuPaul's language is dated, but he has been around for a LONG time
.I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not. Please be sarcasm.
icons are not infallible or above criticism
My biggest problem with him is excusing the outdated language because "drag queens and trans are basically the same"
Fuck you dude, you can take out your breast pads and walk as a cis man on the street if you want.
I hope not, you cannot compare someone of the age of RuPaul with someone of the age of this "William" fellow.
This William Fellow should know better, RuPaul has been around and it is how he used to survive. Which basically is "throw your worst at me, I'll survive!". And yes that is quite sad, and yes that hurts people in the current climate. But you cannot compare his generation with the later ones.
Self Deprecating Humor is how many minorities survived. Taking back the slurs used against them. RuPaul is from a very different time. So yes the language used by RuPaul is, dated. But he's not a young person anymore.
That would push him back into the closet. Not everybody is comfortable with undergoing heavy (And it is VERY heavy) surgery. A personal friend of mine, Female to Male, is going through it right now, and it is very hard for him. The Hormones, the amputations... it is a really big step.
So it isn't as easy to "oh you can be a CIS man." Yes, but before the hormones and surgery so could my friend be a "CIS woman", doesn't make his life easier.. it just pushes him back in the closet. And in some cases they can be the same, some people just are not ready to make the step to the operating table or hormones, yet still are born in the "wrong" gender and thus not comfortable with the assigned one by society. Which is foolish anyway, as by now we know that humans actually have more than 2 genders, and it mostly being a cultural construct rather than a biological one. Many a problem could be avoided by just letting our children be themselves. and not assigning a gender to them by choices of toys and upbringing.
But yes, RuPaul can be very harsh, but again. Different generation, and frankly a person that shocked people to survive. Also getting to that "Fox News" age LOL
. But all I'm saying:RuPaul uses shock and self deprecating humor as a coping mechanism and survival tactic. Something he had to do as a young person to survive.
This William fellow? Yeah, he is a bastard that should know a lot better. He also wend ALOT further than some self deprecating humor, he just gave really bad advice to someone and is a total arse to others, rather than support.
I am fascinated by this transphobic spin on the racist grandparent defence and what it says about those who employ it to defend bigots.
"Oh he's too old to know better, he's from a different generation"
Sod that. RuPaul is trash.
That would push him back into the closet. Not everybody is comfortable with undergoing heavy (And it is VERY heavy) surgery. A personal friend of mine, Female to Male, is going through it right now, and it is very hard for him. The Hormones, the amputations... it is a really big step.
So it isn't as easy to "oh you can be a CIS man." Yes, but before the hormones and surgery so could my friend be a "CIS woman", doesn't make his life easier.. it just pushes him back in the closet. And in some cases they can be the same, some people just are not ready to make the step to the operating table or hormones, yet still are born in the "wrong" gender and thus not comfortable with the assigned one by society. Which is foolish anyway, as by now we know that humans actually have more than 2 genders, and it mostly being a cultural construct rather than a biological one. Many a problem could be avoided by just letting our children be themselves. and not assigning a gender to them by choices of toys and upbringing.
But yes, RuPaul can be very harsh, but again. Different generation, and frankly a person that shocked people to survive. Also getting to that "Fox News" age LOL
RuPaul uses shock and self deprecating humor as a coping mechanism and survival tactic. Something he had to do as a young person to survive.
This William fellow? Yeah, he is a bastard that should know a lot better. He also wend ALOT further than some self deprecating humor, he just gave really bad advice to someone and is a total arse to others, rather than support.
?????
Willam and RuPaul are both cis men to my knowledge. Just because they do drag doesnt mean theyre trans.
If what you mean by "cis man" is "straight man" then no, neither RuPaul nor many drag queens fit in the "straight man" stereotype, their queerness is evident, their gender non conforming is evident, the difficulties they face are extremely similar to trans people because most of society saw them as the same, they are judged on the same grounds and have the same insults thrown at them, specially back then in the 80s and 90s which is where RuPaul and most of drag culture comes from.
Drag is a reaction to that society, you think I'm "too feminine"? Wait and see what I do with this hip pads and breast pads and makeup. It's a rebel in their own femininity, and ironically before Drag Race even gay men despise them, is the long discussion of effeminophonia with gay men.
As mentioned before the time RuPaul comes from was very different, and drag has a lot of roots in that, in being offensive and "throw everything at me, I'll survive" attitude. RuPaul doesn't care what pronounce you use for her, or him, whether you call him "dude" or not, in or out of drag, is that seriously what you'd consider a "cis man"?
I have no idea how you interpreted my post but this is not what I am saying.
I am saying that RuPaul is cis and as such he can undrag and walk the street. Trans people can't untrans.
Also I have no idea what are you calling amputations....I would even say that this might be slightly transphobic to imply that anything a trans people do is an amputation.
I mean cis man when I say cis man.
Don't matter how sassy is his walk, a visible trans person will receive more hate because we are been seeing as SUPER gay by the best haters. dozens of knife atacks on the genital at the worst haters.
excelsiorlef
Member
LGB community.
Being all great for LGB doesn't mean you get a pass for trailing behind on the T
The T isn't actually silent despite what some LGB folks believe.
Eyup.
excelsiorlef
Member
That would push him back into the closet. Not everybody is comfortable with undergoing heavy (And it is VERY heavy) surgery. A personal friend of mine, Female to Male, is going through it right now, and it is very hard for him. The Hormones, the amputations... it is a really big step.
So it isn't as easy to "oh you can be a CIS man." Yes, but before the hormones and surgery so could my friend be a "CIS woman", doesn't make his life easier.. it just pushes him back in the closet. And in some cases they can be the same, some people just are not ready to make the step to the operating table or hormones, yet still are born in the "wrong" gender and thus not comfortable with the assigned one by society. Which is foolish anyway, as by now we know that humans actually have more than 2 genders, and it mostly being a cultural construct rather than a biological one. Many a problem could be avoided by just letting our children be themselves. and not assigning a gender to them by choices of toys and upbringing.
But yes, RuPaul can be very harsh, but again. Different generation, and frankly a person that shocked people to survive. Also getting to that "Fox News" age LOL
RuPaul uses shock and self deprecating humor as a coping mechanism and survival tactic. Something he had to do as a young person to survive.
This William fellow? Yeah, he is a bastard that should know a lot better. He also wend ALOT further than some self deprecating humor, he just gave really bad advice to someone and is a total arse to others, rather than support.
Ru Paul is a cis man.... you're friend is not a Cis Woman. Ru Paul does a ton of appearances not in drag... this post is a mess and SRS/GRS /Gender Affirmation Surgery is not fucking amputation... what the christ.
Not all drag queens are trans in anyway shape or form... many are cis gay men who enjoy fucking with gender roles, which is great but that doesn't make them trans.
Having a different opinion is not "talking down".
And just to clarify I was talking about RuPaul and his crime being using "outdated" words, which I would even argue is an appropiation
but that is another can of worms. What Willam did was just bad and gross, I do doubt she justifies trans violence in real life, that was the bitch character persona of his trying to make a nasty joke, typical of drag queens, that went absolutely wrong. His "but he is not a boy" tirade is really the most damning part, because the joke was over at that point.excelsiorlef
Member
Having a different opinion is not "talking down".
And just to clarify I was talking about RuPaul and his crime being using "outdated" words, which I would even argue is an appropiation
God even when condemning you end up defending...
Those comments were not a "character"
Why would I do that? "Hey, baby! Come over here so I can tell you about this hateful thing Willam said!"
Like I said, she'll bring it up if she sees it. If she doesn't, it's not as if there's a shortage of hateful things out in the world to talk about...It's not a competition, Mathew Sheppard exists, as many, many others.
It would actually be interesting seeing statistics instead of our anecdotal evidences, but I really doubt someone out there classified violence against gay people according to the degree of effeminacy they were displaying. I'm of the opinion that it's irrelevant to make that distinction anyway, because that kind of hate comes from the same place, "men" acting like "women" is the worst betrayal you could do to a patriarchal society, probably second only to "women" trying to occupy the spaces of "men", both met with awful violence.
milkshake duck doesnt slap?
Why would I do that? "Hey, baby! Come over here so I can tell you about this hateful thing Willam said!"
Good point, hah!....Less hateful stuff the better at times.
Having a different opinion is not "talking down".
And just to clarify I was talking about RuPaul and his crime being using "outdated" words, which I would even argue is an appropiation
No, this is straight up talking down to us.
Oh, we're appropriating words now or RuPaul is? Like seriously.
Also: It's not a joke. It's shit transphobes have used to justify fucking killing us. TRANS PANIC DEFENSE IS NOT A JOKE. It's arguing we deserve to die for being who we are and reinforcing the bullshit headed idea that we love to trick people. Like, are you serious? Not just that he fucking said we aren't who we are. While he has the luxury of being a bulllheaded cis dude that can take things off later. He was blatantly and fully an asshole. None of it was a joke or a character.
You are deliberately twisting things to make it "Seem like a competition". That's incredibly intellectually dishonest and sickening to me that you're arguing in these manners. There have been a lot of posts from you and others conflating the drag community with the trans community and also for some reason conflating drags with trans individuals and cismen with trans indiivudals and etc. etc. etc. The sheer amount of ignorance or active attempts at muddling the conversation are disturbing to me.
For the record: you people are trying to say cis drag performers are similar to trans people. All they fucking did was clarify that cis individuals can "De-drag". We can't de-trans.
That was pretty much my takeaway from that too, yea.
Ok you should just check your history and come back maybe, unless you can come up with this "words" RuPaul and other older drag queens "appropriate".
Lol I seriously can't ... That's why we LGBT are fucked.
excelsiorlef
Member
For someone who insists they aren't talking down, you certainly keep talking down.
And I love that basically you're saying LGBT are fucked because the T isn't willing to be shit on by the LGB. You should maybe stop pretending you care all that much about the T.
This is Ru Paul
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/rupaul-responds-tranny_n_5374897
This is a man who couldn't give two shits about the T on LGBT
pinkurocket
Member
All I wanna say is bless Courtney Act for being a voice of reason and trying to educate.
Willam keeping up the 'i'm ignorant lol' facade is just too much. They're having the conversation right next to Stacy Layne Matthews, a trans woman, as well making it awkward.
I mean Drag is something peculiar in that part of the comedy is very crude and it can go very far, but there is a line and Willam has really crossed it. In part because it stays within the LGBT+ community. It's disrespectful to a minority within your own minority. Make fun of yourself or the part of the community you can relate to... But jeez. I wouldn't be surprised if after their current tour the 'AAA girls' stop being a thing.
Quoting for emphasis.
To simplify it further, cis =/= trans. Period. Simple, foundational stuff here. There's no room for quibbling. Please stop trying to equate drag with trans people.
Willam is the last person that should be giving people advice. I've read his book.
Watched the clip the other day and was kind of shocked. You can see how uncomfortable Courtney and Alaska are. The thing is, with Willam he is clearly a dumbass who hasn't put any thought into these issues. I just hope Courtney sets him straight and he quickly apologizes. Ugh.
Watched the clip the other day and was kind of shocked. You can see how uncomfortable Courtney and Alaska are. The thing is, with Willam he is clearly a dumbass who hasn't put any thought into these issues. I just hope Courtney sets him straight and he quickly apologizes. Ugh.
MisterGrey3000
Member
Or better yet (without engaging in the Oppression Olympics), the bigotry that effeminate/gender-nonconforming crossdressing queer men (i.e. most cis drag queens) experience for being effeminate crossdressing queer men isn't the same kind of bigotry that trans folks experience for being trans.
Transphobia isn't more dangerous or hurtful than an effemiphobia + homophobia combo, and vice versa, but they are distinct forms of bigotry experience by distinct groups of people.
That's why gay boys like Willam and Ru get criticized for saying stuff like this, yes of fucking course they do experience bigotry for being gender-nonconforming fem gay men from both straight folks and masculine/heteronormative queer men- without a fucking doubt that's true-, but you know...they're still cisgender men who's bodies match their gender identity (Straight man /= cisgender man mantidor).
The distinct bigotry that they've face doesn't really let them off the hook for perpetuating another form of bigotry distinct from theirs.
Willam has since apologized and admitted that she's still got a lot to learn and said stupid shit.
If I recall, this was him responding to the she-mail gag on the show?
Ru plays with words, and if you get what he's pointing at -- Ru's a Zen Buddhist -- he's alluding to being and living beyond words and labels as clear stamps, which is the problem we often make with words and language in the first place. That's what he's alluding directly to with the world being a "joke."
Not sure if the article mentions it, but I believe this is the same interview where Ru says people can call him whatever they want -- he emphasizes two slurs -- and if they're using it as a hostile manner, that says more about them than the person they're using it on, or even the word itself. Not everyone is familiar with nondual disciplines and having a "mind beyond mind" so I can imagine he says a lot of stuff that could be taken the wrong way as a result. It's also likely not grasped quickly from an outsider's view if their only experience of him is of the show, because Drag Race says nothing about Ru's contemplative experiences, hence why it drew criticism in the first place.
I am not defending him from those who have found what he said offensive, but I am simply trying to explain where his view comes from. It's not from malice, apathy, or ignorance aimed at others. I think to say Ru "doesn't care" is a stretch.
Like, even for Willam, this is just kinda unbelievable given how many trans people he knows by now. It's good that he's admitting his fuckup but good god how are you that far off the path?
It's basically the appropriation vs extinguish debate when it came to this. The slurs didn't differentiate whether they were being used towards a trans person or a drag queen, and the communities took very different approaches to them. Hence, conflict 20+ years later when both enter the mainstream.
BlueBadger
Banned
This is really awful. Breaks my heart, actually. I wish Willam knew better :/
Transwomen of color essentially started the LGBT community, you loon. But sure, it's US stealing words here. Seriously. It's clear how much disdain you have for the T. You talk down to us and prop up a drag star who belittles our existence. And completely have no understanding whatsoever of what common LGBT terms even are....like, seriously, your posts read like you just want to muddy the well rather than understand at all what's going on.
You have no idea what you're talking about. Jesus. If anything it's fucked because there seems to be a ton of G who got all 'fuck you got mine' and are always ready to shit on T.
Garrett Hawke
Member
Courtney handled it so well. Disappointed af in Willam, the vitriol is sad and disgusting and goes beyond her bitchY character.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Gonna stay out of the Ru Paul debate, but damn was it rather pervasive to see just how creepily defensive people are over him. "How dare" was an actual thing said in response to people being critical of him.
Im no fan of willam... at all... but, I find it hard to take what he said into thinking he legit supports the murder of a trans person or supports trans phobic defense.
Willams shtick is speaking crudely. he over simplifies sensitive topics which gets him in trouble often. He makes you question if its on purpose or if hes really that crude and dumb. At times he shows some talent but it gets drowned out by shit like this that isnt to my taste.
Repeat and wash, hes not worthy of the attention that bad behavior gets him and someones murder isnt the topic to try and be entertaining about.
Willams shtick is speaking crudely. he over simplifies sensitive topics which gets him in trouble often. He makes you question if its on purpose or if hes really that crude and dumb. At times he shows some talent but it gets drowned out by shit like this that isnt to my taste.
Repeat and wash, hes not worthy of the attention that bad behavior gets him and someones murder isnt the topic to try and be entertaining about.
I mean...it's straight up support for trans panic defenses. There's "a character" and then there's stuff that goes beyond that. It isn't cheeky or coy or simply crude to say what he did. It's a normalization of continuing transphobia in the G especially that at times appropriate us for their own ends. It is worthy of attention because if we give it a pass, we are saying it is okay to do what he claimed. Which is STILL an all too common stance when it comes to trans individuals, even outside the LGBT spectrum. These drag dudes are not our allies. They can learn, yes,but ally? That's not earned so easily. Especially when you spout something to reinforce shitty beliefs that result in our deaths!
Courtney is totally an ally.
The least you expect from an ally is say "hey this is shit" when they hear shit like this.
And if the stick is speaking crudelly you say you trow your boyfriend in the floor and eat his pussy like the damn animal you are.
Rupaul's cool by me, and I'm delighted to hear he's Buddhist, too.
But kill your idols, people.
Via Purifico
Banned
Give me a break, Ru is certainly not above critism. Especially when he continues to say problematic things outside of the trans topic.
I respect the work he has done but he's no idol of mine.
Via Purifico
Banned
That's what I said.
Excuse my bite, it came off as handwaving but my bad for reading it wrong.
I appreciate his work but Ru is just.. so disappointing. He defended a drag queen who did blackface and mocked black women. How can anyone co sign that.
those evil white gays are at it again! fuck them!
Via Purifico
Banned
I know you're being cheeky but there is something to be said about some cis gay white males. Marriage equality happened and then it was like well we got what we wanted see ya'll later.
Then they also tried to get "Gay is the new black" trending at a time.
I mean, it is a real thing, regardless of you mocking it.
I mean, some can be. But not ones who say stuff like this.
A Link to the Past
Banned
EDIT: Misread as you admonishing people for taking him to task. Considering it wouldn't have been the first time today in this thread that this has happened, I only feel somewhat bad. lol
Lol, if two people misunderstood me, I probably should have worded it differently.
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