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Formula 1 - Brazilian Grand Prix 2016 |OT| We've Got A Message For You...

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spuckthew

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Feb 28, 2013
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Oh wow. Completely forgot that. Were any of Massa's wins gifted to him by Raikkonen?

Massa inherited the win at Spa after Hamilton got [wrongly] demoted to third.


Hamilton won in China '08. Kimi gifted Massa second place.

I'm talking about fighting him in a race, fighting for P1. When was the last time that happened.

Aside from poor starts (by either driver) only Austria, and Hamilton came out on top after Rosberg fucked up his braking and almost took them both out. Rosberg finished 4th I think due to damage.
 

Mastah

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Kimi to MTV3:

''Hard to do anything when your car goes aquaplaning. If we still had as good wet tyres as during old days these conditions wouldn't be a problem at all''

That's why I don't understand why people are so keen at claiming Pirelli are blameless and it's FIA/Bernie/whoever else who's pushing for crappy tyres and Pirelli has done good job. No, that's BS. I'm absolutely sure Michelin would make much better slicks (even if they still would have to last only 20-30 laps), not to mention inters and wets, as Kimi and all other drivers are saying. And to think Pirelli had wet tyre tests this year, specifically to improve them and we still see aquaplaning on straights, which simply didn't happen before :/


This race was the worst and the best of F1 and should be used as a case study to improve F1 and, yeah, make F1 great again. Awful tyres, bad race direction calls, but when these guys are allowed to race... Holy shit, for the first time since 2010 I was actually enjoying racing. No stupid DRS, which gave so many interesting battles and pure skills and enormous bravery in these frightening conditions. Today it was F1 I truly, truly loved for all these years.
 

Danielsan

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Feb 18, 2007
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So I was a bit late to this race. Had to avoid spoilers, but holy fuck. Amazing race, well the latter half... All the safety car laps were mind-numbing and the second red flag was completely incomprehensible, as were Red Bull's pit calls... That said, those horrible pit calls gave us one of the drives of the season. I was so fucking pissed when they put Max on inters when he was second, STILL second after the amazing save, but in the end I'm glad they dropped the strategic ball, because we got a godlike performance in return. Going from 16 to 3 in ~ 15 laps. Fucking madness man. Well worth the 3+ hours.
 

Lionel Richie

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Jun 22, 2014
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I mean over the course of the latter half of the season. I think he's a great driver...but he's driving unhappy and it is showing on the track.

Agreed, Vettel is having a very down year. However, I disagree about his legacy. He won 4 titles. 4. Four. In a row. His legacy is beyond questioning even if he doesn't win another race ever again.

He's not looking like he might be GOAT like he once did though.

So we're at the point where we're just pulling random facts out of our ass to defend Rosberg now?

Mercedes have stated that Lewis' car failures are not down to his driving style.

Not defending Rosberg here, but Lewis pushes the engine harder and that IMO is more likely to lead to failures. What do expect Mercedes to say? "Yeah Lewis that's partly on you, please drive differently than you did when winning 2 WDC for us"? It might surprise you but a team doesn't throw its head figure under the bus very often.

It at least makes more sense than himself suggesting his team was sabotaging him.
 

Lionel Richie

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This is utter drivel. Where is the evidence?

Christian Horner once suggested that, Sky once threw it might be related and I heard it more than once during the TV broadcast here. I'm not saying it absolutely is, since it doesn't even happen all that much, but it could maybe I don't know perhaps be a little related to why Rosberg cars are usually more durable. Do you have evidence saying it 100% isn't that?

I think I have just read something stupid.

Good for you sunshine.
 

andshrew

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Christian Horner once suggested that, Sky once threw it might be related and I heard it more than once during the TV broadcast here. I'm not saying it absolutely is, since it doesn't even happen all that much, but it could maybe I don't know perhaps be a little related to why Rosberg cars are usually more durable. Do you have evidence saying it 100% isn't that?

Hamilton's had almost new engines which have failed. These engines are supposed to be capable of a minimum of 5 races so no, I think these are unfortunate mechanical failures of extremely complicated engines not Hamilton 'driving them too hard'.
 

Lionel Richie

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Hamilton's had almost new engines which have failed. These engines are supposed to be capable of a minimum of 5 races so no, I think these are unfortunate mechanical failures of extremely complicated engines not Hamilton 'driving them too hard'.

I expressed myself wrong, I shouldn't have said that Lewis' driving style is what caused this specific engine to fail, I just meant to say that maybe it's something that could have some relation to it especially considering it happens less often with Nico. Or it's not that, the fuck do I know, I'm not an expert but probably neither are the people who have gotten mad at what I said.

Maybe it's luck, but being lucky is part of being good.
 

spuckthew

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Do you have evidence saying it 100% isn't that?

I mean, it's possible that it's possible (I guess...), but it probably isn't the case. He had a stretch of 6 wins in 7 races in 2014 without mechanical problems. 4 wins in a row at the beginning of 2014. Another 6 wins in 7 earlier this year. The last 6 races of 2015 (3 wins 3 second places). 9 podiums in the first 9 races also in 2015 (5 of which were wins). Not to mention that his Malaysia blowout was a new engine when he was just cruising out in front.

But neither of us will ever know unless we magically get access to every kilobyte ever of Hamilton's telemetry, so let's just say that this theory is bullshit for now.
 

Ganzlinger

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May 3, 2014
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That's why I don't understand why people are so keen at claiming Pirelli are blameless and it's FIA/Bernie/whoever else who's pushing for crappy tyres and Pirelli has done good job. No, that's BS. I'm absolutely sure Michelin would make much better slicks (even if they still would have to last only 20-30 laps), not to mention inters and wets, as Kimi and all other drivers are saying. And to think Pirelli had wet tyre tests this year, specifically to improve them and we still see aquaplaning on straights, which simply didn't happen before :/


This race was the worst and the best of F1 and should be used as a case study to improve F1 and, yeah, make F1 great again. Awful tyres, bad race direction calls, but when these guys are allowed to race... Holy shit, for the first time since 2010 I was actually enjoying racing. No stupid DRS, which gave so many interesting battles and pure skills and enormous bravery in these frightening conditions. Today it was F1 I truly, truly loved for all these years.
Agreed.

I hope they keep Interlagos, it's a fantastic track.
 

NeloAnjelo

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Not defending Rosberg here, but Lewis pushes the engine harder and that IMO is more likely to lead to failures. suggesting his team was sabotaging him.

When comparisons are done between the 2, Lewis has much smoother steering wheel control and also conserves more fuel by the end of the race. This contradicts Hamilton pushing the engine more. There is no evidence of this. Also if you want to win you push.
 

Lionel Richie

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But neither of us will ever know unless we magically get access to every kilobyte ever of Hamilton's telemetry, so let's just say that this theory is bullshit for now.

I can agree with that, I shouldn't have said that it like it was a downright fact, it was a mix of speculation and random fan talk like commenting on a player's killer instincts or intangibles or whatever.
 

DBT85

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Christian Horner once suggested that, Sky once threw it might be related and I heard it more than once during the TV broadcast here. I'm not saying it absolutely is, since it doesn't even happen all that much, but it could maybe I don't know perhaps be a little related to why Rosberg cars are usually more durable. Do you have evidence saying it 100% isn't that?

Hm..

Mercedes said its nothing to do with his driving
We've seen in the time when fuel usage was displayed that Lewis uses less than Nico.
 

Lionel Richie

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Hm..

Mercedes said its nothing to do with his driving
We've seen in the time when fuel usage was displayed that Lewis uses less than Nico.

It's very possible I was talking nonsense. However, doing so made me realize how little crazy statistics there are online. I wish I could find average RPM, peak RPM, fuel usage, shifting gear stuff, there's nothing to be found unlike I'm missing something.
 

DBT85

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It's very possible I was talking nonsense. However, doing so made me realize how little crazy statistics there are online. I wish I could find average RPM, peak RPM, fuel usage, shifting gear stuff, there's nothing to be found unlike I'm missing something.

There is nothing to be found. Teams don't want other teams seeing that data.

They work a lot out though, even recording the sounds of cars to work out gear ratios and shit. It's mad.

However the idea that Lewis out of the 8 drivers on the grid with Mercedes engines is the only one that drives in a particular way that doesn't just make old engines die faster, but makes brand new ones die instantly, is madness.

Without additional engines because of failures, there are 40 on the grid per season. That's also not including testing engines Of which there might well be another 20.

In addition, its not been the same problem. The first 2 were ERS issues which fucked up his qualifying making him start 22nd and 10th, then he had the engine mode issue that Rosberg fixed faster because he's the brain of britain and Lewis is a potato (as some believe), then he had a hydraulic failure, then he had the blowout in Malaysia.

It's simply bad luck. Whether its bad luck in the installation process or the manufacturing process or just in the lap of the gods, we don't know. But if it was a design issue it wouldn't just be going wrong for him.
 

DBT85

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Does anyone know how many points did Lewis lose to bad starts?

The only ones that cost him IIRC have been Australia, Bahrain, Italy and Japan.

Aus he was on pole, was 6th by the end of the 1st lap and finished 2nd, so max 7 points.
Bah he was on pole, was 7th by the end of the 1st lap and finished 3rd, so max 10 points.
Ita he was on pole, was 6th by the end of the 1st lap and finished 2nd, so max 7 points.
Jpn he was P2 (I think), was about 8th by the end of 1st lap, and finished 3rd, so max 10 points.

Assuming he converts his starts to wins, 34 points, assuming he just maintains position, (3 wins, 1 2nd) then 27 points.

Aus start was shite, he was 3rd by the first corner behind Rosberg. Vettel stormed away from the line to get 1st by the 1st corner. Half way round the next corner Hamilton had lost a further 3 places because he'd had to back out of the throttle.

In Bahrain, his start led to him being the one to get tagged by Bottas which cost him places. The start itself just meant he was behind Rosberg.

In Canada Vettel got the jump on them both again, but Rosberg lost out when Hamilton pushed him wide at t1/t2.

In Italy his start was just dreadful, probably 6th before they hit Eau Rouge.

In Japan his start was also awful.

Rosberg has had similarly bad starts in a couple of races.



In contrast, Lewis was in 1st in Malaysia when his engine popped. Identical failures during Quali in China and Russia made him have to start from 22nd (finished 7th) and 10th (finished 2nd) respectively.
At Spa because of the engine failures in earlier races he had to start from the back of the grid and finished in 3rd.

So, assuming he wins Malaysia, comes 2nd in China and Spa, he gets 31 points.
If he wins all 3, it's 45 points.

So yeah. The numbers kind of speak for themselves.

Despite all that, he's still won 9 races out of 20 so far, the same as Nico, and is only 12 points behind in the championship.
 
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It must irk Hamilton greatly to have a senna helmet (multiple times), to dream about winning in a country where he feels the spirit of Aryton so closely, have a cruise drive to win from lights to flag....

But when he gets on the podium he finds that orange is the new yellow and the crowd are chanting Senna! Max! to Max!

It will be very interesting to see if the mercury dominance is over next year and Max will have a car that can actually challenge the leaders.
We see Vettel melting down when faced with Max.
Imagine what the person who thinks he is the new senna comes up against the 'people's senna'.
I imagine the 'beaten by rosberg pout' will be replaced by meltdowna similar to his Monaco meltdown.
 

f0rk

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It must irk Hamilton greatly to have a senna helmet (multiple times), to dream about winning in a country where he feels the spirit of Aryton so closely, have a cruise drive to win from lights to flag....

But when he gets on the podium he finds that orange is the new yellow and the crowd are chanting Senna! Max! to Max!

It will be very interesting to see if the mercury dominance is over next year and Max will have a car that can actually challenge the leaders.
We see Vettel melting down when faced with Max.
Imagine what the person who thinks he is the new senna comes up against the 'people's senna'.
I imagine the 'beaten by rosberg pout' will be replaced by meltdowna similar to his Monaco meltdown.
What evidence do you have for this after the last 3 races? Seems like you just want to hate Hamilton.
 

gutterboy44

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I am so glad that Rosberg and Hamilton did nothing all race because it made the two truly special moments stand out so much more. Another Mercedes champion, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. The Massa pit walk was really bittersweet. It is rare to have such a touching moment in F1 these days. And Max, wow. Truly a Senna-esq performance. That was electrifying to watch. I loved how the crowd got behind him too. Next season can't come soon enough.

Edit: How could I forget Kimi's crash. My heart was in my throat for a second because I was almost certain we were about to see a horror show crash. Get your shit together Pirrelli and Charlie. Shit tires, shit pace car, and shit safety calls. That AMG is way too slow for situations like that. They need something with race trim.
 

Mister Zimbu

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For the first couple hours I was entirely convinced I was about to watch somebody die.

Congrats on not murdering anyone yesterday, F1.
 

Always-honest

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Yeah, but to be fair, his Dutch swearing is really conservative.
It was amazing to watch yesterday. This moment was insane but so were the last 16 rounds. He really silenced all the doubters yesterday. I mean, Vettel was driving a good race himself, like many others. But Max just passed them like they were standing still (well, a bit hyperbolic..).

If all goes well, he'll be a future World Champion pretty fast. Everybody can see that now.
 

adamantypants

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I'm a RIC fan (obv) but holy shit Max. That was fucking enthralling.

The first 30ish laps were an utter snoozefest but laps 35-71 made the best race of the year.
No DRS, super wet track making engine advantages largely disappear, driver skills really shining. Wehrlein and Ocon really showing their skill in a car with no downforce, Nasr reminded us that he won British F3 championship, Carlos Sainz further reinforcing the fact that he needs a faster car, Max with an un-fucking-believable drive (and not to mention his Godlike save out of the last corner earlier on), and what? Like 5 cars into the wall and miraculously nobody collided, aside from Palmer lolz. It's also hard to remember that Lewis and Rosberg, with as boring as they are to watch at the front, were largely issue-free and both had fantastic drives. Lewis really showing his pace by consistently pulling ahead.

What a horrible/fantastic race
 

Solaire of Astora

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They need something with race trim.

The problem with that is that you can't just jump in a racing car, turn the key and drive. The car would need a team of racing mechanics working on it, keeping it ready to go out at the drop of a hat.

There's also the fact that racing engines/parts are expensive and aren't really designed to last. For a recent example, look at Lewis' engine failure in Sepang. Brand new racing engine, but it still blew up. Racing engines just aren't as reliable as road engines. There's also a reason why session restarts come with a ten minute warning. You can't just restart an f1 car. There's a whole checklist of procedures to be done, which at the bare minimum, take several minutes to complete.

You also can't have a racing car sitting ready to go for the duration of a Grand Prix, because the engines start to overheat.

The current safety car is a pretty fast car and Bernd Maylander is a good driver who drives the wheels off the thing. It's probably about as good as we're going to get. You could argue that there are faster road cars out there, but I'm not aware if Mercedes make any, and they've been supplying the safety cars for twenty years now.
 

Jezbollah

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The problem with that is that you can't just jump in a racing car, turn the key and drive. The car would need a team of racing mechanics working on it, keeping it ready to go out at the drop of a hat.

There's also the fact that racing engines/parts are expensive and aren't really designed to last. For a recent example, look at Lewis' engine failure in Sepang. Brand new racing engine, but it still blew up. Racing engines just aren't as reliable as road engines. There's also a reason why session restarts come with a ten minute warning. You can't just restart an f1 car. There's a whole checklist of procedures to be done, which at the bare minimum, take several minutes to complete.

You also can't have a racing car sitting ready to go for the duration of a Grand Prix, because the engines start to overheat.

The current safety car is a pretty fast car and Bernd Maylander is a good driver who drives the wheels off the thing. It's probably about as good as we're going to get. You could argue that there are faster road cars out there, but I'm not aware if Mercedes make any, and they've been supplying the safety cars for twenty years now.

At times Maylander had that pace car out of control trying to drive fast in those wet conditions last Sunday.
 

Don_Tombery

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Well, I guess AMG could modify a DTM C-Class or the GT3.
The engines in these are quite bulletproof (for race cars) and at least to some degree close to production engines. And they are build to last for a full season.

But to be honest, I'm not sure that these cars could handle very wet conditions with aquaplaning much better/faster
 

gutterboy44

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The problem with that is that you can't just jump in a racing car, turn the key and drive. The car would need a team of racing mechanics working on it, keeping it ready to go out at the drop of a hat.

There's also the fact that racing engines/parts are expensive and aren't really designed to last. For a recent example, look at Lewis' engine failure in Sepang. Brand new racing engine, but it still blew up. Racing engines just aren't as reliable as road engines. There's also a reason why session restarts come with a ten minute warning. You can't just restart an f1 car. There's a whole checklist of procedures to be done, which at the bare minimum, take several minutes to complete.

You also can't have a racing car sitting ready to go for the duration of a Grand Prix, because the engines start to overheat.

The current safety car is a pretty fast car and Bernd Maylander is a good driver who drives the wheels off the thing. It's probably about as good as we're going to get. You could argue that there are faster road cars out there, but I'm not aware if Mercedes make any, and they've been supplying the safety cars for twenty years now.

I was thinking more along the lines of a modified DTM or endurance car, not something like a baby F1 pace car. They already have DTM drivers driving the pace car, give them a DTM car, make that shit AWD. I just think the car needs to be lighter with more aero so it can get closer to F1 speeds, not actually match them.
 
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