Graphics Horse
Member
Is it actually feasible to mass produce flash memory with so much pre-written data?
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Fortune: Nintendo started talking to 3rd parties at E3 about NX; reception positive
- Thread starter thefro
- Start date
Is it actually feasible to mass produce flash memory with so much pre-written data?
Father_Brain
Banned
If all things except specs were left unchanged, those ports he talks about would still have sold like crap and third parties would still have quickly fled the platform.
For Wii U to succeed in the core market, Nintendo needed an offering so compelling that it would make a non-trivial minority of PS3/360 owners abandon those consoles as their primary platform. They weren't and still aren't capable of such a thing, no matter how powerful their hardware is.
Just like FFXIII then.
That was too easy
Even taking that account it gives a relative sense of where mobile tech is right now and there's still at least a year of advances to be taken into account.
GhostTrick
Banned
Lol well being right based on facts directly from Nintendo was always comforting
You work in this industry long enough and you learn to laugh it all off.
Well; it's hard to blame people who didn't expected that between a 0,24tflops to 2tflops scale, Nintendo would go for the lowest side.
I mean, it's like Nintendo doesn't know it exist something between Xbox 360 and PS4... or even Xbox One.
But truth to be told, I think NX is a good time for them to learn that... when we will see that it will be indeed be between Xbox 360 and Xbox One in term of horsepower.
I still wonder to who they were lying when they thought NintendoLand was their new Wii Sports. Probably just themselves.
GhostTrick
Banned
To be fair, it looks kinda closed in term of environnement. Most of all, it seems that when in battle, the game takes a hit in term of polycount and effects.
Shikamaru Ninja
任天å ã® å¿è
The concept could have been brilliant, but the execution of asymmetrical gameplay and some of those games just did not translate well to the consumer / gamer.
GhostTrick
Banned
I think that the problem with Nintendo Land was the reveal... being the game that killed all the hype from their E3 2012 press conf did hurt the game for sure.
Father_Brain
Banned
E3 doesn't influence the purchasing decisions of the mass market nearly that much, especially not the casual/family demographic which that title was quite clearly targeting.
Ninja Scooter
Member
NintendoLand's problem was that it was positioned as the "Wii Sports" of the new system yet it was missing the ease of use that Wii Sports thrived on. It took 30 seconds to explain to someone who had never played video games before how to play Wii Sports and use the Wii-mote. This was not the case with NintendoLand and the GamePad. It was far more convoluted. The market that made the Wii such a success were never going to buy into the Wii U. So you lost the casual gamers, and the hardcore gamers wanted nothing to do with it because it was just another "casual aimed minigame collection".
Fourth Storm
Member
I don't think it's even that. All they needed were some of the consumer base who already bought into Wii U to buy some of the 3rd party offerings. They didn't even meet publishers' low expectations ,because either those audiences just don't exist on Nintendo platforms, or the negative perception early on in the media (that 3rd party titles were late and in many cases, technically inferior ports) killed sales for non-exclusives.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
They are addressing that with the NX, as it seems.
It doesn't matter if it's currently selling less across two than it did on one in the past, given the customer base disparity. It matters whether it can sell more across two than on one alone. Let's see the historical data.
MK sold the most generation-wise during the Wii/DS gen (source: wikipedia):
Mario Kart Wii: 36.38M
Mario Kart DS: 23.56M
That's a grand total of 60M units during that gen world wide. No single MK entry has ever done this. Ever.
Let's look at Smash in Japan (using GAF-provided sales data circa 2014):
That's a total of 2.47M units across the two platforms.
Smash on Wii: 2.509.467
Yes, it did take the combined bases of the two platforms to reach Wii's numbers, but do you believe this gen's Smash Bros would've done better on either of the current nintendo platforms alone? Under what conditions?
I think they cross substantially.
Yes.. as much as I love csgo. If it doesn't have keyboard/mouse and frequent updates no one will touch it after a week.
GhostTrick
Banned
Both of you are true. Although, I also feels like that Nintendo Land's problem was aesthetic too... It was positionned as Wii Sports of the system, although its aesthetic was cathering to Nintendo fans... which didn't cared about a Wii Sport.
All good points, but I think if the NX is going to be a hybrid platform consisting of a handheld and home console, the handheld will be the lowest common denominator.
In other words, the handheld is the "lead platform", so to speak. Everything made for the NX is intended to work for the handheld device. The home console provides the "enhanced" big-screen experience with higher resolutions/better framerate, along with the occasional game-specific enhancements like better draw distances, AA, etc.
The Tegra X1 showed us that mobile architectures can be surprisingly powerful (apparently it even surpasses the Wii U) in a home console package, although one still has to consider how power and thermals would work in a handheld package. Regardless, something like the Tegra X1 (or its successor) in a Nintendo handheld would be incredibly attractive; meanwhile, the home console NX would be capable of running Crysis 3. Not bad. And certainly enough to run a new Zelda or Xenoblade.
As I said earlier in the thread, Nintendo needn't waste its time in the performance race against PS4 and Xbox One (and PC!), even if this precludes AAA 3rd Party support. I don't see any way that Nintendo can beat PS4 and Xbox One at their own game. The NX needs to be the best place to affordably play Nintendo games, 3rd party mobile games, and whatever games 3rd party devs want to bring to the ARM-powered ecosystems of Google Play and the App Store.
If anyone paid attention to the 3rd part E3 conferences this year, that last point will make more sense. Even the bigwigs are seriously considering mobile, and seeing Fallout Shelter top the charts is just a sign of more to come.
Splatoon will scratch that shooter itch for Nintendo, more so now that the first game was a success.
If it's playable with a steam controller I don't see why it wouldn't be possible with a normal one.They just have to find a way to implement the workshop(skins,map,etc.)
Cause cs isnt a normal shooter. Ubless u wanna run around with p90s like how beta was or cod.
Also no one competively will play csgo with a steam controller...
Ninja Scooter
Member
I think the aesthetic and convoluted control scheme pretty much guaranteed that, much like the Wii U itself, it's appeal was going to be limited to die hard Nintendo fans. I think the biggest hurdle for Nintendo (and the one that most people are seemingly in denial about) is that they have lost a generation of gamers. For a lot of kids from 12-21 Mario and Zelda are not the be all/end all for gaming. For a lot of them the Mt. Rushmore of gaming is Minecraft, FIFA, Call of Duty and Batman. They don't have this emotional or nostalgic attachment to Nintendo's classic IPs. You aren't just going to win those people over by saying "Look here's a system that finally does what Playstation and Xbox do, only it plays Mario to! Now give us your money!"
People buying Wii U at launch were enthusiasts who more than likely already owned the late ports the system received. In December 2012 I had a PS3, a 360, and a PC. Any other customers enthusiastic enough to buy gaming hardware at launch had some combination of these systems as well, why would I or any of these people have bought a title like Mass Effect 3 for the Wii U in large numbers? Especially when they could have bought the Mass Effect Trilogy for a lower price on another system.
There is no point for Nintendo to chase the support of AAA publishers. The customers for that market have made their choice already and thanks to Valve/MS/Sony's work on account services, a lot of these customers want to stick with the ecosystem they've bought into. Even if a significant number of enthusiasts buy a Nintendo system they most likely aren't buying multiplatform titles on it.
Major publishers will only come back when there is visible proof of a market for their titles on Nintendo hardware. Until then Nintendo need to rely on first-party software, their existing 3rd party partnerships and smaller publishers/independent developers.
GhostTrick
Banned
That's where Nintendo Land failed IMO. Cathering to die hard fans... which didn't cared about such product. Especially when its reveal was so terrible...
AstroNut325
Member
This begs the question... It obvious that the Wii U failed to pull in the audience who would purchase the 3rd party ports. Why is that? What would have driven people to purchase the Wii U to play those 3rd party ports? And in that same thought, why does Nintendo continue to pursue the mass market/uber casual market, yet their games are focused on hardcore gamers? Is someone who plays Boom Beach, Candy Crush, and Angry Birds going to play a Bayonetta? Or a Zelda? Are they trying to attract the mass market with their hardware, but the hardcore with their software?
Astral Dog
Member
Amazing that NintendoLand is still easily one of the best looking games on the system.
Eh I don't buy that. Sony themselves said half the people buying ps4 didn't own ps3. So obviously that didn't hold true for them. Nintendo needs to show they offer the best value both long and short term.
Retromelon
Member
I don't want to believe they would put something out in 2016 weaker than the one. At least as powerful as the ps4.
don't try to tell me wii u is weaker than 360 blah blah i know about the cpu. Also is this what I've become that i am praying for nintendo to at least match the current gen with their next gen machine...
One less income stream for a more solid, stable and (hopefully) stronger one.
Yeah, the overlap between handheld and console gamers basically only exists with the GAF sort of crowd. Most people buy one or the other now, it's not the glory days of the Game Boy and SNES anymore.
There's really no assumption to be made there, they don't and they've been quite clear on that for some time now.
Nintendo's primary goal has always been to achieve the closest they can to break-even cost, with the Wii being the singular outlier in that strategy. Break-even has traditionally allowed them much greater flexibility for price cuts as production became cheaper. But when necessary, they've eaten a loss before on hardware, just not anything crazy like Sony and Microsoft have done historically.
That depends on your definition of "more frequently". I would say that they will release what they release and iterate only to counter-act movement by their competitors.
Sure. But they're going to do it in the actual mobile space and lace that into the equation, not try to bring the mobile space into their hardware arena.
And after those points, you completely lost me.
As others have said, the money saved developing multiple iterations within the same series could quite possibly offset the money made from hardware sales.
nothing more needs to be said.
I'm sure most of the executives in that Wii U reel would gladly fuck themselves if they could and we shouldn't give them the idea to try.
You were confident in purchasing a Wii U? Jeez dude, not even I was confident in my purchase, and I'm a Nintendo fan who bought it at launch. 2 and a half years ago is a very loose definition of "recently". And it's not like NX is released tomorrow, so you're really getting into a twist for nothing.
It's really more about making sure they can keep pace with the incoming move to 4K. Blu Ray read speeds aren't going to be sufficient.
And more to the point, of all the things we get up in arms about with games, how is it somehow acceptable to ALL of the hardware manufacturers that loading screens are still a thing, like we're still at the turn of the century? Anything that brings death to a loading screen is welcome to me.
You don't pre-write the data on the flash memory, that's infeasible. Which is why this is a better solution. You produce blanks that then have their data put on them using a WORM write method, which can be automated. This puts it in the same league as optical media in regards to simplicity of data replication. And you wouldn't even need your own manufacturing facilities for the wafers, just a contract with a NAND supplier.
Right but the less differentiated the releases are the less likely people are to double dip anyway. Mario Kart 7 released for both 3DS and Wii U would have sold significantly less than MK7 + MK8 combined but it would have taken a lot less resources which could have been spent elsewhere.
Or to use an especially relevant example the reason we don't have an Animal Crossing Wii U games is because the team split off to make Splatoon which is a massive hit for a Wii U game.
People aren't going to buy the same game across both platforms so resources would need to be spent to differentiate them. Whilst Nintendo might be interested in doing that due to the obligation to support their hardware third parties won't be willing to do that and would probably forgo the console SKU altogether.
LordOfChaos
Member
I read that developers were worried about it (especially in regard to CPU performance) right off the bat. So hopefully "positive" here means something that substantially closes if not surpasses the gap.
I think the reason people don't buy Wii Us or 3rd party games for it is simple, the games run worse. I have all 3 current gen consoles, but I buy all 3rd party games on PS4 since they look the best. People say that having the best graphics alone won't bring back 3rd parties or sells of 3rd party games, but look what happened to Microsoft. The 360 was last gen's most successful 3rd party platform, but this gen PS4 is the most powerful console and now they have the best 3rd party sells. I know personally that if NX is more powerful than PS4 I'll definitely be buying all 3rd party games on it.
magnumpy
Member
I think they've run out of good ideas for new gimmicks. would love to be proven wrong though.
It was around 40%, and the important questions to ask would be "how many of those were Xbox 360 owners" and "how many of those owned both an Xbox 360 and a Wii". We don't know the numbers, but I'm having a hard time seeing that most of these purchases were upgrades from Wii-only users.
EDIT: just to elaborate on this point, the audience of Wii-only buyers was very, very different from those who purchased only a PS3, a 360, or any combination of the three. The majority of that audience certainly did not carry over to the Wii U.
That's not how it works. People who want to play Counter-Strike have had a platform for over a decade where they know they will get the best way to play Counter-Strike. You think the hundreds of thousands of CS:GO viewers on Twitch are going to buy a port for a Nintendo system in any significant numbers?
As for console FPS fans, they are spoiled for choice on their platforms in terms of console-tailored modern FPS games, they aren't going to a Nintendo system for a CS port. If they wanted CS they would sooner buy a Steam Machine for the assurance of long-term support for the game.
Nintendo will get "FPS fans" by either
a) creating multiple hits in that genre exclusive to their platform
b) building up a roster of enough smaller FPSes that succeed on their platform to the point where larger publishers feel confident bringing over COD/BF/CS:GO.
They will need to repeat the same process for every popular genre that has been lost from lack of 3rd party support. They have a lot of work ahead of them and hardware is only part of the equation, customers need to feel confident in their services and they need to ramp up their first party development enough to avoid any more software droughts.
DownGrader
Member
Übermatik;170185418 said:
They dismissed VR several times recently, so that's definitely out of question.
Yeah I know, just musing, hence why I dismissed it.
What would be the advantage here?
TwilightPrincess
Member
I bought some of the 3rd party games but indeed i had a hard time to convince myself paying full price for ports of one year old games which weren´t even on par (bader framerate for Asssassins Creed, Batman etc. You can´t build up a hype for 3rd party games on a new console if its all old, more expensive as on 6 year old consoles. i would have totally bought Tomb Raider or a GTA V multititle on Wii U if they existed and were on par (and thats even bad for a new console so late in the circle). I think it would have been better for 3rd party sales if Nintendo delivered on their promise with a stronger console....
But somehow it gives a little bit of hope for the next console that it wasn´t the fault of 3rd parties like i believed at the start.
It's really while the Wii U failed in general. It was a product that didn't really appeal to anyone. It didn't have the simplicity of the Wii to appeal to the casual Wii fanbase, and it didn't have the specs and third party support to appeal to the core gamers. So what was left was a hardcore Nintendo segment that would have bought the thing if it had a Gamepad for a controller or not.
GhostTrick
Banned
That wouldn't happen for one reason: Nintendo's point in getting 3rd party support is royalties. I mean, even if it was a dual boot with Nintendo OS and Steam OS... They want royalties.
Right, but if they are getting literally 0 third party support, it could help sell the system and make the market bigger for selling their own games. But yeah, the only way is if Nintendo cut a deal with Valve that they get a share of the royalties for games bought on the Nx.
magnumpy
Member
that begs the question then, how much is enough?
having twice the output as wii-u would not be enough IMO. having three times as much would maybe be enough? maybe four times greater output than wii-u? five times? well then you're talking a great number of first party titles from nintendo, but that still wouldn't be enough IMO.
you absolutely NEED third party titles. it's not something that is an option, a good third party lineup is absolutely required, or else NX will suffer the same fate as wii-u. nintendo for example isn't going to make a competent competitor to GTAV. that is a hole that has to be plugged by third parties or it just isn't going to happen.
1) Doesn't Mevius or Mobius or whatever it is called run on high end smartphones? The NX's portable iteration will probably cost no more than $129. You have to target a few years older in tech I think.
2) I do not think the "console" version will be a super scaled up version of the handheld. I'm thinking like 3DS to New 3DS in terms of added graphical features + ability to run games in 1080p a la Ouya (PS Vita TV doesn't even do that).
2) I do not think the "console" version will be a super scaled up version of the handheld. I'm thinking like 3DS to New 3DS in terms of added graphical features + ability to run games in 1080p a la Ouya (PS Vita TV doesn't even do that).
ArchedThunder
Banned
I highly doubt it will be that cheap, it will probably be more in the 179-199 range.
anotherVegan
Member
Nintendo not doomed.
Lol well being right based on facts directly from Nintendo was always comforting
You work in this industry long enough and you learn to laugh it all off.
Btw congrats on releasing Arkham knight!!
.. If my crazy theory that since your nick is Arkam you must be developing Arkham games is correct.
Gamer79
Predicts the worst decade for Sony starting 2022
Nvidia's shield console is atleast as powerful as the xbox 360 with their new X1 chip and $199 price. I am a big fan of the android consoles but they all suffer from lack of software. The amazon fire tv (I own) is the most successful android console but still pale in comparison to full console sales. I don't know how broad that market is.
It's simply about the console that more of your friends have for many people. The 360 having better multiplats (visually) definitely helped it but what helped it more in terms of being the go to system for multiplats was its one year head start, its $200 cheaper price than the PS3, and Xbox Live.
PS2 was the weakest system out of the three for its gen but it got the majority of game sales mainly due to it still being a huge improvement over the PS1, its head start over the competition, and its ability to play DVDs. Millions still bought PS2s years after the Xbox and GameCube released (systems with better versions of multiplats) due to the PS2 simply being the more popular system with it also having great game support. It's funny too because the multiplatform gap between the PS2 and original Xbox was the biggest out of any gen so far.
This is part of the reason why I feel that power isn't going to mean much in terms of Nintendo's next console. They are already too far behind when it comes to online play for most people to even consider wanting to buy a system from Nintendo to play multiplats. I guess it could be considered the wrong attitude to have by some but I honestly feel that this is the reason why Nintendo should make sure their next console is in the $150-250 range. Most are only going to view it as a "Nintnedo box" regardless of how powerful the system may be over the Xbox and Playstation.
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