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Forza 5 cloud processing: end of A.I
- Thread starter Canis lupus
- Start date
Ghosts are pre-recorded runs... this is nothing like ghosts
NullPointer
Member
Adaptive ghosts, personalized to how other players drive.
Not sure how that works (how much variation are we talking about?), but in theory it could be a serious improvement. AI and image quality were my biggest problems with Forza 4.
Also, doesnt Turn 10 use some kind of cloud adaptive learning system when calculating a car's PI? Don't they run it against courses and see how it handles over time? Or am I making that up? ;P
Edit: looks that way vvv. I don't consider the AI in Forza to be all that great though.
You can read up on how it works: http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/drivatar/theory.aspx
it has always been a Forza feature. Only new thing is that it is being moved to cloud
shaowebb
Member
I see this as a good idea put in the hands of the wrong audience. This is going to be troll-exploded from day 1.
They could easily throw out any AI with behavior they didn't like
It's cool, but the end of AI is an exaggeration. It's AI determined by how you perform, not a new concept, but making it so that your personal AI can continue to compete against others is an interesting use of cloud storage, and it'd be particularly awesome if it gets integrated into FPS games as well.
Metalmurphy
Member
You give it orders during b-races, it levels up and builds its racing style. Then you share it for others to use. It's for B-Spec racing only but the concept is pretty much the same. It's still AI being taught and shared online.
Mental Atrophy
Banned
Depending on how good their algorithm is, this could produce some interesting racers. But I'll believe in it when I see it. On the plus side, with cloud features being a default XBL thing, it means all developers can tap into it pretty easily without excessive cost. Maybe somebody will actually do something clever with it. But still... I'll believe in it when I see it.
They confirmed that Forza 5 can be played offline. So the cloud stuff is optional... and what was the point of making online required again Microsoft? Weren't all first party games supposed to take full advantage of the cloud and bring everyone experiences not possible without a connection, make up for graphical faults and limited RAM.
Metalmurphy
Member
Of course it was gonna work online...
For the curious, the game downloads the AI profiles while ur online and saves it in cache for offline use.
this
Perfect.
PdotMichael
Banned
It's PR nonsense.
Even a "learning" A.I. doesn't take that much cpu power.
Even a "learning" A.I. doesn't take that much cpu power.
uncledonnie
Banned
The cloud stuff is cool and all but no talk about the graphics? Thought this looked stellar.
So when i play off or my internet cuts off the AI turns to shit?
I would rather them focus on real AI that doesn't require bullshit gimmicks. Not all of us have the best connections, some don't have internet and some don't like being always on. Also, how much bandwidth will this cost us? Almost every major and local bandwidth provider has a monthly cap.
I would rather them focus on real AI that doesn't require bullshit gimmicks. Not all of us have the best connections, some don't have internet and some don't like being always on. Also, how much bandwidth will this cost us? Almost every major and local bandwidth provider has a monthly cap.
GTP_Daverytimes
Member
My first thought when they started talking about.
Metalmurphy
Member
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=62378736&postcount=63
Game isn't actually using the cloud at all during gameplay...
That's because none of it was actual gameplay.
NullPointer
Member
Got a link for the confirmation? I believe you, just want to see the fine print.
I'd also like to see a race where this cloud based AI doesn't make the first turn of the race into a crash derby, even purely amongst themselves.
Even the cockpit view racing he showed onstage? Before turning it over to the AI/Drivatar/what-the-fuck-ever?
wow... was always hoping for this ... to play against "learned" AI from human profiles ... should make for some incredibly real racing... MP like feel without the asshats in SP
the in game racing looks beautiful...
Yes he said you can play it offline (up 24hrs obviously) but caches the drivatars to play against
the in game racing looks beautiful...
Yes he said you can play it offline (up 24hrs obviously) but caches the drivatars to play against
PairOfFilthySocks
Member
Can some technical bastard please get the fuck in here and explain to us why everything the Forza guy said about the cloud was complete bollocks? What exactly is stopping the game from analyzing and creating the player's 'drivertar' entirely from the clientside?
LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
Only possible with the cloud
I have to see this in action instead of just taking their word for it though.
NullPointer
Member
If creating these AI don't require cloud processing than is the benefit purely B-spec credits grinding?
Will Forza 5 have dedicated servers?
Will Forza 5 have dedicated servers?
yes lets try to prove this is busllshit instead of just appreciating... geezus
they are offloading all the driving tendencies of al the drivers in the world and matching their drive styles with yours on varied levels of difficulty to give you a realistic experience. It does the compute on servers to create AI drivatars even when you are not playing.
Dan also said this number crunching saves processing power client side to let machine focusing on graphics physics etc
The relaunched Drivatar is fantastic news. If the aim is to get the unpredictable personalities of online opponents fed into the AI cars in offline races then it could be amazing. They'll obviously filter out all the fucktard crashbastards and round off sharp edges to driving styles (maybe only using the drivers with top laptimes for the hardest difficulty settings etc) but anything that gets us further away from on-rails AI in driving games can only be a good thing.
The original GRID had very believable human-like AI that would lose control, defend aggressively, run wide, spin out etc so if FM5 produces opponents with real personalities and human traits then it can only be a good thing.
The game is looking utterly incredible from what they've shown so far.
The original GRID had very believable human-like AI that would lose control, defend aggressively, run wide, spin out etc so if FM5 produces opponents with real personalities and human traits then it can only be a good thing.
The game is looking utterly incredible from what they've shown so far.
Forza Motorsport already had the same system. They subsequently dropped it for the 360 Forzas because it sucked.
Jinfash
needs 2 extra inches
Ghost battles? It's the same in theory, and it was available in many other games before Tekken (off the top of my head: VF). Bet let's hope they justify it with better implementation and results.
Hari Seldon
Member
The difference is that with the cloud they can use data from many different players rather than learning from a single player.
AlanzTalon
Member
You want someone to come in here and re affirm am opinion you have already formed? Why is it ?
Anything that they can do to make the Single Player racing better is a net win. I completely abandoned the sp campaign in Forza because the races were boring. I played nearly 100 hours of online multi though. Adding behaviors and correct techniques is great, whether they use the cloud of not.
Also overlooked in here. Single Player races get populated by friends tuned cars and liveries, hopefully their Drivatar as well.
This sounds pretty big. They basically have a learn program on the cloud end processing the data creating ai drivers that will improve as the community improves.
The Skynet is coming true. I can't wait for Activision to do this with a future COD and through some bug the AI it finds it's way on to the internet and decides humanity should be purged from the earth.
The Skynet is coming true. I can't wait for Activision to do this with a future COD and through some bug the AI it finds it's way on to the internet and decides humanity should be purged from the earth.
The AI they are using for this probably far beyond what a home computer can achieve.
Salvor.Hardin
Banned
That sounds pretty cool and is exactly how I imagine the cloud will be used this generation.
Given how choppy their latest live demo of the OS functions was, I doubt that segment was live at all. Plus it's Turn 10, bullshots and trickery ahoy.
Except that it's not what they're doing.
uncledonnie
Banned
Really? I'm pretty sure those sequences were in-game. Guess we'll have confirmation soon enough.
PairOfFilthySocks
Member
They said nothing about having other drivers' data impact your play. All they said is that it analyzes your play and uses the 'cloud' to create new AI. What is so fancy that it can't be achieved on the console? The adjusted AI is obviously not going to be streamed in real-time from Microsoft's servers, and the game can only hold so much AI data in memory. Why can't the game do the number crunching on the console itself? It's not like it's going to get truckloads of data from one player playing a racing game. Sounds like marketing BS to me.
This is insanely cool. It builds AI based on crowd gathered data, so the more people play the game, the more complex and intelligent the drivers will become. Depending on the algorithms, it'll really feel like actual human opponents.
I hope other developers are thinking along the same lines with cloud usage.
I hope other developers are thinking along the same lines with cloud usage.
Hari Seldon
Member
So a supervised machine learning algorithm (a neural network, a support vector machine, et. al.), relies upon massive quantities of data to generate "parameters". Once you have the parameters, the AI algorithm is straightforward. The hard part is calculating these parameters, since you need lots and lots of data, and lots of computing horsepower. What the cloud does that a single user cannot do, is collect lots and lots of data, since it can collect data from many users. And it can crunch on the data without blocking the game itself. (A program that calculates machine learning parameters for a moderately complex problem might take hours or even days to run).
So for example, assume you have a race with maybe 3 turns in the race, and you record at what point the driver started to turn, their velocity before breaking, the amount of turn, etc. You also record their total time in the race.
You take this data from lots and lots of people, and you can generate parameters that will predict that if you take all these turns in a certain way, you will achieve a total race time of X seconds.
If this sounds complicated it is because it is, and people who do this well get paid lots of money.
1. Doing it locally is a waste of resource
2. The cloud lets them tweak and update their analysis algorithms without having to push updates to the user
3. The resulting ai is probably based on ALL of the data collected about you, which might not be available to you locally.
Punkster_NY
Member
Erm. No. Learning can take an enormous amount of processing power depending on the kind of learning its doing. Whether that is the case with Forza depends, of course, on what their learning algorithm is and what it is doing.