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Free Will vs Determinism: Where do you stand?

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I think I worded it wrong, I meant Earth just even having all those conditions feels like.......not exactly fate, but like this wasn't mere randomness or probability.

Again not random. It is bounded and "guided" the laws of nature.

Think of crystal formation or sand dunes. Order arises from very simple rules.

Yeah i think it is also fallacious to remove consciousness from the brain. My thoughts are that it's an emergent property. Build a system with sufficient complexity and self reflection and self awareness emerges.

Also, sense of self is an illusion. All you need is present self awareness and memory and small gradual changes over time.

Consciousness is an emergent property of the physical structure of our brains which changes slowly enough and we have memory of being conscious in the past. Bam sense of self, even though day to day, moment to moment we are changing.
 
Why does it matter
What difference does it make
Am I choosing to post this sentence
Am I fated to write this post
Did my destiny force me to make this free choice
Did I freely choose to make writing this post my unavoidable destiny
 
Gross ... a Sam Harris book.

Not a fan? I thought Waking Up was really good.

Why does it matter
What difference does it make
Am I choosing to post this sentence
Am I fated to write this post
Did my destiny force me to make this free choice
Did I freely choose to make writing this post my unavoidable destiny

You are not in control nor moved by an outsider force to infer a destiny. Why is this so hard to understand? :P
 
Why does it matter
What difference does it make
Am I choosing to post this sentence
Am I fated to write this post
Did my destiny force me to make this free choice
Did I freely choose to make writing this post my unavoidable destiny

In the way that law and religion intersect it matters.

If somebody does something bad you could handle it two ways. One way is that the person is broken and can you can try to fix them or reduce the harm they cause. Another way is that they have some sort of hidden core of evil that influences them to make one bad decision when they could have freely made a good decision. The solution to this is forced suffering to try to send a spiritual message to the insubstantial souls.
 
Haha as I said the characteristic of this debate is that it goes round and round because people don't use the same terms. So what if it's neurons? what's missing here? What does it mean for the will to be free? Does it mean that it has to not be neurons but some magical entity outside the laws of nature?

Compatibilism states that free will consists in doing what you want, in the same way that I am writing this post because I want to write this point. The laws of nature and the fact that they determine outcomes simply don't count as a limitation of our freedom. In a world without laws, actions cannot follow patterns and plans are impossible. Freedom consists of doing what we want, and therefore it is imperative that our desires be determined by factors that include our personality, motivation and circumstances. Just because you want an apple because of your brain chemistry, doesn't mean that you don't actually want an apple.
Take for example the choices regarding sex. Sexual orientation is outside your control, and so is the gender you ascribe to, and generally people don't want to have sex with their siblings, it is believed this is the result of tne hypothesized reverse sexual imprinting(the westermarck effect).

Perhaps a parent wants a child to be gay or heterosexual, what if they changed the genetics perhaps with influence above even naturally occurring influences thus making it more predetermined.

Clearly if the parent predetermines a child's gender, sexual orientation, etc. Clearly that's not the child's choice. Yet if nature and the environment does it, all of a sudden it is the person's choice?

I don't think so, again suppose this were a simulation and someone predetermined say that you would have sex with X, perhaps with the very person who started the simulation. Are you willing to defend compatibilism to that extent? Or would you say that there is no truly free choice in that circumstance, that there is no consent, and that it is a form of rape. Again my point is that if you consider yourself free when faced with a predetermined will, then you should likewise consider yourself free when that predetermination is the result of another person and not just some mindless process.
 
Take for example the choices regarding sex. Sexual orientation is outside your control, and so is the gender you ascribe to, and generally people don't want to have sex with their siblings, it is believed this is the result of tne hypothesized reverse sexual imprinting(the westermarck effect).

Perhaps a parent wants a child to be gay or heterosexual, what if they changed the genetics perhaps with influence above even naturally occurring influences thus making it more predetermined.

Clearly if the parent predetermines a child's gender, sexual orientation, etc. Clearly that's not the child's choice. Yet if nature and the environment does it, all of a sudden it is the person's choice?

I don't think so, again suppose this were a simulation and someone predetermined say that you would have sex with X, perhaps with the very person who started the simulation. Are you willing to defend compatibilism to that extent? Or would you say that there is no truly free choice in that circumstance, that there is no consent, and that it is a form of rape. Again my point is that if you consider yourself free when faced with a predetermined will, then you should likewise consider yourself free when that predetermination is the result of another person and not just some mindless process.
Not to derail. So its your hate of Reed Richards . not your secret love for Susan. Right?
 
Nice discussion.

The problem with the idea of free will is that, given current understanding, its not possible to come up with a mechanism by which it could work without breaking the laws of physics. And no, quantum mechanics will not save you.

If we ignore quantum mechanics for a moment and assume that all the matter and energy in your head interacts according to simpler deterministic laws, then knowing the initial conditions at t=0 could allow us to calculate whether you will post, or not post, 30 seconds later. Exercising free will would mean not always conforming to this determined outcome and thereby breaking the laws of physics.

Now, quantum mechanics. I am no physicist, trying to understand the nature of reality is just a hobby of mine, so I may be a little off the mark here.

As I understand it, the core equations of QM are deterministic. You can describe how the wave function of something like an electron will develop over time deterministically. The "randomness" comes in when you try to predict the actual position of the electron when measured. The maths does not enable you to determine exactly where the electron will be when its wave function collapses, only the probability of it being at a particular location. However the probabilities of it being at any given location can be calculated very accurately.

So if we knew the initial conditions of a brain at t=0 then, rather than there being one pre-determined outcome of post or not post at t=30s, there may be a probability of each outcome determined by how the quantum chips fall in the chain of causality leading to the decision. If, after some funky maths, the probabilities are calculated to be post=40% not post=60% then to exercise free will would be to deviate from these percentages over repeated tests, thereby breaking the laws of physics (the fact that rewinding a brain back to the exact initial conditions for repeated tests is not practically possible does not invalidate the thought experiment).

So, while QM complicates the situation it does not avoid the essential problem with the idea of free will.


If anyone with a better understanding of QM can correct me I would greatly appreciate it.
 
Sam successfully rebranded neoconservatism and gets a lot of grief from the left for it.

Not a fan? I thought Waking Up was really good.



You are not in control nor moved by an outsider force to infer a destiny. Why is this so hard to understand? :P

Was Waking Up the one that starts with him describing why Islam is different from other religions in how evil it is and how it promotes terrorism? I forgot which book it was but it was the first chapter. I have tried giving him a fair chance -- but I don't have a lot of respect for his Islamaphobia. I wouldn't really call what he does philosophy either. It seems like his opinions come down to: science can answer all philosophical questions.
 
I always find this discussion amusing. Some will argue quite vigorously that free will does not exist, which proves nothing (they "have to" do so, right), but it seems quite a perfect contradiction for sentient beings to devote effort to disprove their own sentience, much less to convince others of its non-existence.

What's even funnier is when people mix the two views together. It was actually here on GAF, IIRC, where I saw someone argue that criminals shouldn't be held accountable for their actions - specifically, that they shouldn't be imprisoned - because of lack of free will. This person didn't seem to realize the self-contradicting nature of this argument. If the criminals lack free will, then so do the jailers. How could they then decide not to enact their "destiny" of imprisoning the criminals?

Good stuff.
 
If anyone with a better understanding of QM can correct me I would greatly appreciate it.

While I don't have a better understanding of quantum physics. It is only under the assumption that there is a difference in nature between the present the future and the past, or alternatively some form of branching that something truly probabilistic would take place.

While we may only be able to tell probabilities, if the future and present are identical to the past, in nature, then even quantum events are as determined as anything can be. For example the odds of a radioactive atom decaying in the past at a time it didn't decay are zero now and forever. Just think, what are the odds that one of the radioactive atoms in young hitler's body will decay and mutate one of his cells into a cancer that will kill him young and won't allow him to become chancellor? They're zero, the past is set in stone, and unless the present and future are different in kind, they too are set in stone.

There are deterministic hidden variable models of quantum mechanics, they haven't been ruled out and there are the nice deterministic fluid models that seem to visualize the wave particle duality. And as always for those that posit the existence of true randomness, they must also posit some process capable of producing this true randomness. It would bend credulity to say that true randomness just is without explanation nor mechanism behind it.

EDIT:

“The work of Yves Couder and the related work of John Bush … provides the possibility of understanding previously incomprehensible quantum phenomena, involving 'wave-particle duality,' in purely classical terms,” says Keith Moffatt, a professor emeritus of mathematical physics at Cambridge University. “I think the work is brilliant, one of the most exciting developments in fluid mechanics of the current century.”
-another article on fluid deterministic quantum mechanics
 
Quantum probability in the discussion of free will is only used as a god of the gaps style argument.

I mean qm affects all matter but i dont see anyone rushing to pretend that all matter therefore has free will. Nor are the mechanics by which quantum uncertainty gives rise to free will or even just human like intelligence articulated.
 
If anyone with a better understanding of QM can correct me I would greatly appreciate it.

I am certainly not that person with a better understanding of QM, but that is my understanding as well. Nevertheless, I propose that, given our obvious perception of having free will, we should continue to assume that we do until proven otherwise. Despite all the amazing discoveries of science (all discredited, don't you think, if they were pre-determined), we haven't actually disproven free will. Far from it. We've only made the question of whether (or how) it exists more intriguing.
 
I always find this discussion amusing. Some will argue quite vigorously that free will does not exist, which proves nothing (they "have to" do so, right), but it seems quite a perfect contradiction for sentient beings to devote effort to disprove their own sentience, much less to convince others of its non-existence.

What's even funnier is when people mix the two views together. It was actually here on GAF, IIRC, where I saw someone argue that criminals shouldn't be held accountable for their actions - specifically, that they shouldn't be imprisoned - because of lack of free will. This person didn't seem to realize the self-contradicting nature of this argument. If the criminals lack free will, then so do the jailers. How could they then decide not to enact their "destiny" of imprisoning the criminals?

Good stuff.

This sounds like "if there's no God, y u spend so much time trying to prove he don't exist???"

You can have choices without free will, it's just that those choices are predetermined by everything that led up to that point, so whether you "feel" like that's a choice is entirely on you.

You still jail criminals because they're likely to do it again. Jail is supposed to reform them so they will one day be released and not do it again. If you don't see the deterministic qualities just in that, you have no right being so smug.


Despite all the amazing discoveries of science (all discredited, don't you think, if they were pre-determined), we haven't actually disproven free will. Far from it. We've only made the question of whether (or how) it exists more intriguing.

"Despite all the amazing discoveries of science, we haven't actually disproved God."
 
Was Waking Up the one that starts with him describing why Islam is different from other religions in how evil it is and how it promotes terrorism? I forgot which book it was but it was the first chapter. I have tried giving him a fair chance -- but I don't have a lot of respect for his Islamaphobia. I wouldn't really call what he does philosophy either. It seems like his opinions come down to: science can answer all philosophical questions.

Waking Up was mostly calling out almost all religion as wooly but that a claim many of them promote - ego death and feeling a sense of unity with the universe - is an accountable phenomena that be studied and experienced beyond the domains of religion, where it often remains.

I think maybe he had about a sentence or two about Islam, but the first chapter was focused more on calling out theology and new agey claims, and that there are some truths that can be exported from those poisons and be used by anyone. Meditation, for example, demands no dogma: it's merely a conditioning of the mind to be in the present. Of course, that can go much deeper regarding understanding one's own awareness, but that type of application seems to be left exclusively to Buddhists and Hindus, even if the claims of no self are a scientific fact.

I always find this discussion amusing. Some will argue quite vigorously that free will does not exist, which proves nothing (they "have to" do so, right), but it seems quite a perfect contradiction for sentient beings to devote effort to disprove their own sentience, much less to convince others of its non-existence.

What's even funnier is when people mix the two views together. It was actually here on GAF, IIRC, where I saw someone argue that criminals shouldn't be held accountable for their actions - specifically, that they shouldn't be imprisoned - because of lack of free will. This person didn't seem to realize the self-contradicting nature of this argument. If the criminals lack free will, then so do the jailers. How could they then decide not to enact their "destiny" of imprisoning the criminals?

Good stuff.

One can ask a question here: which is more flimsy evocation? That one is not a free agent, or that one should be punished under the assumption that one is? Free will doesn't exist, but that doesn't change the fact an individual can absorb incorrect ideas about things. Jailing people is not a destiny of free will, but conditioning of society and various individuals that free will exists, so that lens, however shoddy it may be, becomes the social canon. It's no different than an ascribed canon of creationism or flat earth.

The key is to offer information and understanding that one can absorb while being accountable to reality. Free will is absolutely something that needs to be shied away from for the dangers it makes if taken as reality, for it infers a principle of there being an outsider to the happenings of nature and people. If people are the results of happenings, the same applies to ideas. Look at our culture, for we literally run on the idea that paper makes things happen. This is literally only an idea, but we are so collectively bamboozled about it we create depressions and recessions and actively let people suffer in them. Bad ideas need to be called out for their fiction and their poor roots in reality.

Of course, a very paradoxical problem here is that one may ask "how do you offer this to people with no free will?" in the sense you are typically speaking to one's false ego, which itself is the image aligned with free will. The oddity is it doesn't exist, yet we think, act, talk, and convey ideas in such a way that only feeds such a thing to be true, making the entire effort here very confusing for those who don't already get it. The same thing with nondualism: we think, act, and talk in ways that infer a cosmos of separated, cut off events, even if nothing is separated or cut off in the ways we make it. Even when we speak of the unity of forms and processes, we are still doing it in a way that in it's description, these are seen as separated things. It's very messy.

Consider for a moment if I say "you do not think your thoughts." You will, by default, take this from the perception of the ego concept of yourself. You will be caught in an image that apparently thinks thoughts and tries to wrap that concept with the concept that it doesn't think thoughts. Conveying may not be enough, but experience to correlate the data might be, and perhaps why Eastern traditions often argue against intellect to understand the points I've raised. It's not that one needs to be dumb to get it, but one needs to see the futility of their ego or the nonsense of division in order to see them for the fictions they are. The data is quite clearly not enough for one to taste it.

One can very easily see free will as a falsehood when they see the image of themselves to be a fraud. The I identity has to be seen, firsthand, as a non-entity. No doer to deeds, but just the deed happening. No thinker of thought, but just the thought happening. To see what happens in and of itself with any principle of an outsider, both of the cosmos and of the mind. If one does not have an experience to see through the illusion, one will be caught up in it. For those who believe in free will, these are people still caught in the fiction by defining themselves as a separate self.
 
If indeterminism is true then the past and future are different in kind.

There is also nothing strange about an indeterministic physics, or any a priori reason to favour determinism. While an indeterministic theory can always be incomplete and emulated by a deterministic reality, the reverse is also true.

And determinism being false doesn't mean that all our decisions are random. There are many examples of how randomness can be employed in pursuit of purposeful goals. Consider how creativity might work. Creative types are often advised to separate idea generation from idea evaluation. The latter is a structured process of enforcing criteria derived from an understanding of your overall goals. The latter on the other hand benefits from a different mindset and a dose of randomness.
 
I think having criminal justice is compatible with determinism. Even if you don't have ultimate control over your actions, you make decisions based on the environment and the world you live in. It's a lot easier to make the decision to commit crimes if you knew you lived in a world without any consequences. Having prisons is a simple measure to reduce crime.

Is it ethical to incarcerate people for crimes if you believe that there is no free will? I guess my answer would just be utilitarianism. It's better to punish people who commit crimes than it would be to have a world with a lot more crime because you refused to do so.
 
While I don't have a better understanding of quantum physics. It is only under the assumption that there is a difference in nature between the present the future and the past, or alternatively some form of branching that something truly probabilistic would take place.

While we may only be able to tell probabilities, if the future and present are identical to the past, in nature, then even quantum events are as determined as anything can be. For example the odds of a radioactive atom decaying in the past at a time it didn't decay are zero now and forever. Just think, what are the odds that one of the radioactive atoms in young hitler's body will decay and mutate one of his cells into a cancer that will kill him young and won't allow him to become chancellor? They're zero, the past is set in stone, and unless the present and future are different in kind, they too are set in stone.
:

This has definitely been a sticking point for me. The probabilistic nature of quantum mechanics doesn't jive with the idea that the future already exists. I would like it if QM was deterministic in a way which we don't yet understand but we can't make that assumption. Perhaps the many worlds theory solves this problem: the futures already exist, all of them.

Thanks for the links, interesting stuff.

Quantum probability in the discussion of free will is only used as a god of the gaps style argument.

What I attempted to show in my previous post was that free will does not even fit into this particular "gap".

Edit:
I'm way outside my depth here, but that's my understanding.

I mentioned the many worlds theory in this post ;). I don't think it helps free will though.
 
This has definitely been a sticking point for me. The probabilistic nature of quantum mechanics doesn't jive with the idea that the future already exists.

This is what the "many worlds" interpretation of quantum mechanics is about. Every time a probablistic event occurs, a set of parallel universes is spawned. Which universe does our consciousness travel to? I think that's the basis of the woo-woo quantum mechanics theory of free will.

I'm way outside my depth here, but that's my understanding.
 
I think having criminal justice is compatible with determinism. Even if you don't have ultimate control over your actions, you make decisions based on the environment and the world you live in. It's a lot easier to make the decision to commit crimes if you knew you lived in a world without any consequences. Having prisons is a simple measure to reduce crime.

Is it ethical to incarcerate people for crimes if you believe that there is no free will? I guess my answer would just be utilitarianism. It's better to punish people who commit crimes than it would be to have a world with a lot more crime because you refused to do so.

isn't it even better not to punish people at all and craft the system with the ultimate goal of minimizing the behavior regardless of the form that takes? IE a 'medical' approach to criminal justice.
 
Quantum probability in the discussion of free will is only used as a god of the gaps style argument.

I mean qm affects all matter but i dont see anyone rushing to pretend that all matter therefore has free will. Nor are the mechanics by which quantum uncertainty gives rise to free will or even just human like intelligence articulated.
Yeah. Even if the universe is nondeterministic, that doesn't necessarily grant us control.
 
This has definitely been a sticking point for me. The probabilistic nature of quantum mechanics doesn't jive with the idea that the future already exists. I would like it if QM was deterministic in a way which we don't yet understand but we can't make that assumption. Perhaps the many worlds theory solves this problem: the futures already exist, all of them.

Thanks for the links, interesting stuff.

Interesting. Why would you like that to be the case? Indeterminism of QM give you the heebie jeebies? Better unification with GR?
 
Interesting. Why would you like that to be the case? Indeterminism of QM give you the heebie jeebies? Better unification with GR?

I would be more comfortable if god did not play dice with the universe ;)

Edit: I suppose that's not really an answer. The truth is probably that understanding the nature of the universe seems easier if it takes a more classical form, and I'm lazy.
 
I would be more comfortable if god did not play dice with the universe ;)

Edit: I suppose that's not really an answer. The truth is probably that understanding the nature of the universe seems easier if it takes a more classical form, and I'm lazy.

Oh Einstein, you silly man.

Seriously, I doubt God has much to do with either but truthfully, determinism seems to lend more "credence" or be popular with Christianity, Islam etc. Fits better with their idea of an all seeing, all powerful deity that knows everything that has happened and that will happen; the future being pre-ordained/we're all actors on a stage and all that.

As for your edit, I can certainly relate to that. As far as indeterminism goes, I enjoy the uncertainty for some reason.
 
I was previously firmly Reformed-Calvinistic in theology, but I have gravitated recently toward Orthodox theology, which assumes a free will.
 
Your argument for free will is "Let me be dumb"?

If we can manipulate ants with 100% certainty of what their next decision will be based on our input, does free will exist because in their little ant brains, it's true for them?

Wow, I didn't say "dumb." Looks like I touched a nerve somewhere
 
I believe in determinism; however, I also believe that I have the illusion of free will, and that's just as good as the real thing.
 
I believe in determinism; however, I also believe that I have the illusion of free will, and that's just as good as the real thing.
And to throw more out, when does perception become king? If you have the illusion of free will, and it is just as good...I might be inclined to say you truly have free will.
 
He's probably referring to the Libet experiments and other studies that have examined that line. There has been a lot of discussion about how the conclusions are probably conceptually flawed, but I think it's a very interesting open topic for discussion. It's basically a modern discussion of the homunculus problem.

Good thing we never continued discussing then. Since our debate can be surmised in a couple of sentences. :)

The homunculus problem is very interesting in its own right. But that is for another rainy day.


----

Today, I was thinking about how, thinking backwards to a certain point, is an illusion. Time always travel forwards.

And I then thought of decision trees. And square pegs in round holes. Suppose you have a cube and you send it down three floors. The third floor has a square shaped hole. And it goes through that. The second has a triangle shape. And it stops, as in it is blocked. End of that decision tree.

Then suppose you had a very small spherical ball. And it goes through the square shape on the top floor, because it is smaller. And it goes through the triangle, because it is smaller, and then it goes through the circle at the bottom.

Both of these are deterministic. There is no choice. Just gravity working of its own accord. Along with size and logically what's happened makes sense. A person goes in through the ground floor door. And sees that these things do not have any really choice. As has been clearly demonstrated. Just gravity working.

To complicate matters. Suppose, the cube has free will, and it is allowed to change. I dunno why or how. For argument's sake, let's just say that it can.

And so we run the test again. The cube is a cube first. Then changes into a 3d triangle. Then changes into a ball, before changing into a cube hitting the bottom floor. And we see the same with the small ball. A person sees the ball and the cube on the ground floor. Hmm. He looks up. And cannot work out how the cube came to be on the ground floor.

So person A reasons that a cube could not get through the different hole shapes without evolving or change shapes. And so logically, only a cube that can change shapes or evolve so to speak, would rest on the ground floor. So it isn't that it willed into a different shape. Or had a choice. It was merely cause and effect.

So rational beings that we are, we are predisposed to make sense of the world. It just has to make sense. And when it doesn't. Well... we reason out the world in a way that does makes sense.
 
The illusion of free will isn't normally considered sufficient since we'd like to able draw a distinction around cases where someone is a victim of stuff like hypnotism and brain washing, i.e. people who also believe they are acting under their own volition but in fact are not.
 
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