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[Kasumin]

From Bloomberg Business:

One Japanese man, who goes by "Taste" online, began playing about three hours before midnight on Dec. 31, streaming his session in a game players’ chatroom. For hours he spent money in furious pursuit of Anchira. His audience swelled from a handful to more than 10,000 as the New Year arrived, and before he knew it, Taste burned through $2,665 without unlocking her. The chatroom crowd alternated from mockery to pity, wondering when his credit card company would cut him off. But Taste kept going, buying hundreds and then thousands of tokens. Finally at about 3 a.m., on attempt No. 2,276, he unlocked Anchira. The crowd erupted. He had spent $6,065.

The 2012 crackdown came after complaints about practices by the country’s leading gamemakers. One tactic that is now banned was ‘complete gacha,’ which would push players to accumulate a complete set of specific items. For example, users would be prompted to gather four different kinds of wizards so they could get an extra powerful wizard. But once users had three wizards, they could be enticed to keep pursuing the fourth at very high costs, regulators ruled. More broadly, the guidelines ban manipulating shako-kokoro, or the gambling spirit. Companies are not supposed to take advantage of people’s emotions to extract money.

CyberAgent isn’t the largest mobile gaming company in Japan by revenue -- it’s third after Mixi Inc. and GungHo Online Entertainment Inc. -- but it’s the best at getting its players to spend money. Granblue Fantasy took in a monthly 90,000 yen ($800) from each paying user, topping all other games. Mixi’s Monster Strike averaged less than half that at 42,000 yen, while GungHo’s Puzzle & Dragons gets just 6,200 yen, according to Macquarie.

More in the article, naturally. Just thought those paragraphs were particularly interesting.

I know mobile games get discussed quite a bit on GAF and there's varying degrees of attitudes toward them. I'd heard about the incident with this "Taste" person, but I had only heard vague accounts of it.

This Bloomberg article provides an interesting look into the Japanese mobile game industry while providing some context.

If this news is old, feel free to kill this topic. But I hadn't seen anything about this specifically and the article is from today.

 

[LumpOfCole]

Granblue Fantasy took in a monthly 90,000 yen ($800) from each paying user

LumpOfCole.exe has stopped working

 

[ponpo]

LTTP article.

Granblue art is nice, let the whales fund it until more figures can be made and then shut it down.

 

[bigkrev]

Granblue Fantasy took in a monthly 90,000 yen ($800) from each paying user,

Why is any Japanese company wasting time and money making games for consoles

 

[Outtrigger888]

This type of shit needs to be banned. Casinos sound childish compared to some of these mobile game stories.

 

[Kasumin]

Why is any Japanese company wasting time and money making games for consoles

Honestly, I keep wondering the same thing... and it makes me sad

It's amazing the amount of money you can extract from people when you abstract the value of money (you're buying "crystals" or "gems" instead).

 

[Trigonometrize.]

Why is any Japanese company wasting time and money making games for consoles

I mean, not everyone is going to make tons of money off mobile games with the legislation and saturation. And there's still an audience on console that will be nicher and nicher and easier to corner.

 

[ponpo]

Why is any Japanese company wasting time and money making games for consoles

You really can't make this kind of money unless your game is filled with qt gacha babes, so they probably want to not solely make those games.

That said, they make a lot. There's a new Square Enix gacha game like every month.

 

[SatoAilDarko]

A key reason why Nintendo has stated all of their mobile games will be free-to-play.

They stand to make much more off microtransactions than one time purchases.

 

[Nyoro SF]

Kataoka said he believes Cygames was targeting kids. He points out Granblue Fantasy advertised in manga magazines popular with children, including the Shonen weekly publications. The video ads in December featured a high-school student fixated on the game and included one commercial focused on his younger brother, about 10, telling his parents he wants to play.

Kataoka feels trapped. He loves playing Granblue, but he thinks Cygames is taking advantage of its customers. “You can tell how much thought and ingenuity went in to the illustrations, music and professional voice acting to make it popular, and the business side is now using that to whip consumers into a frenzy,” he said.

He vows to keep pressing the regulator to force Cygames to make public its gacha techniques and winning percentages. “Honestly, the industry hasn’t improved since 2012,” he said. “I don’t think anything has changed for consumers. They’re just looking the other way.”

Good luck.

I am honestly amazed myself that they haven't cracked down harder on it already.

 

[Aaronrules380]

A key reason why Nintendo has stated all of their mobile games will be free-to-play.

They stand to make much more off microtransactions than one time purchases.

Pretty sure they haven't stated this at all

 

[Kumubou]

Why is any Japanese company wasting time and money making games for consoles

The vast majority of money in the Japanese mobile market (IIRC, it's about 80% of so) are already being taken in by two games (Puzzles and Dragons and Monster Strike)... and then the remaining 20% or so largely goes to a few other big games (Granblue, Idolmaster, etc.). So if you're not in that top 1%, you aren't making much of anything. There's also secondary effects as the production values (and alongside that, production and marketing budgets) of mobile games start spiraling up.

Having a stable market of 20,000 to 100,000 buyers looks more appealing after that.

 

[Nanashrew]

Yeah, I've heard some vague accounts about this as well. The guy spent a lot of money for an in-game character that was 0%. There was no way of getting the character even through paying. I remember one of the 8-4 guys talking about it on Twitter.

 

[Kasumin]

Yeah, I've heard some vague accounts about this as well. The guy spent a lot of money for an in-game character that was 0%. There was no way of getting the character even through paying. I remember one of the 8-4 guys talking about it on Twitter.

But the article says he got the character eventually? That's the part I find interesting.

 

[ponpo]

The vast majority of money in the Japanese mobile market (IIRC, it's about 80% of so) are already being taken in by two games (Puzzles and Dragons and Monster Strike)... and then the remaining 20% or so largely goes to a few other big games (Granblue, Idolmaster, etc.). So if you're not in that top 1%, you aren't making much of anything. There's also secondary effects as the production values (and alongside that, production and marketing budgets) of mobile games start spiraling up.

Having a stable market of 20,000 to 100,000 buyers looks more appealing after that.

The sums they are making are so large that you don't need to really be in that top 1%. Obviously not everything will be a GBF level success but it's not like doing a little worse than that is all that bad.

Related, lol.

 

[Nanashrew]

But the article says he got the character eventually? That's the part I find interesting.

Yeah, I'm confused too. The whole thing is really messed up.

 

[border]

I don't really agree with making these games illegal. But I do think that Apple/Google should be pressured or persuaded into setting a hard cap on how much someone can spend on In-App Purchaes. I guess that will never happen though since they have a vested interest in taking advantage of these whales.

 

[Fusion Pizza]

Gambling addiction is treated just the same as addictions to substances right?

Personally, I find mobile gaming of this sort to be reprehensible, it's utter shit, and if you make this garbage, you should feel bad about yourself.

 

[ColtraineGF]

There were two videos I watched a while back that explained the GBF incident, as well as providing a general overview on popular JP social games, complete gacha, and other fun things:

The Granblue Fantasy Scandal and Japanese Social Games

The Granblue Fantasy Scandal's Aftermath (and also Japanese Social Games)

 

[Tizoc]

Yeah, I'm confused too. The whole thing is really messed up.

The percentage chance is more likely 0.xx%

 

[JordanN]

Why is any Japanese company wasting time and money making games for consoles

They still make games that either can't run on mobile or would be severely compromised if it did.

Ironically, that creates the market we know now. Japanese console developers are safe not having to compete with mobile ones, as their games exist on another tech and gameplay level.

 

[Kasumin]

Gambling addiction is treated just the same as addictions to substances right?

Personally, I find mobile gaming of this sort to be reprehensible, it's utter shit, and if you make this garbage, you should feel bad about yourself.

Pretty much the same, as I understand it. For people who are addicted to gambling, it isn't even about winning or losing anymore. It's about being in a constant state of flow while on the machine and doing whatever they can to extend their time on the machine.

I imagine addiction works similarly with mobile games. Similar mechanics and all.

There were two videos I watched a while back that explained the GBF incident, as well as providing a general overview on popular JP social games, complete gacha, and other fun things:

The Granblue Fantasy Scandal and Japanese Social Games

The Granblue Fantasy Scandal's Aftermath (and also Japanese Social Games)

Thanks for the links! Had no idea that these videos existed.

 

[duckroll]

I find this aspect of the article really fascinating because of how honestly expressed his addiction is:

Daiki Kataoka, who lost more than $800 during that period, was so incensed at what he saw as manipulation he collected 2,000 signatures for a petition calling for more regulation.

“Unless we change things from the very core, this situation will continue,” said Kataoka.

[...]

Kataoka forked over about 100,000 yen within hours, but failed to find Anchira. Inspired by Taste’s video and other angry gamers, Kataoka accumulated 2,000 signatures and filed a formal complaint with the Consumer Affairs Agency. The petition claims the company led a misleading advertising campaign and potentially violated the rules passed in 2012.

“I already had my doubts about their winning percentages,” said Kataoka. “But my doubts transformed into very strong suspicions after I saw the video.”

He accumulated statistics from his own games and other users, and came away convinced Cygames didn’t fulfill the 6 percent winning percentage it had advertised. An official at the agency wouldn’t confirm the receipt of the complaint or explain what action the agency may take, and Kataoka said he hasn’t heard back from the regulator yet.

[...]

Kataoka said he believes Cygames was targeting kids. He points out Granblue Fantasy advertised in manga magazines popular with children, including the Shonen weekly publications. The video ads in December featured a high-school student fixated on the game and included one commercial focused on his younger brother, about 10, telling his parents he wants to play.

Kataoka feels trapped. He loves playing Granblue, but he thinks Cygames is taking advantage of its customers. “You can tell how much thought and ingenuity went in to the illustrations, music and professional voice acting to make it popular, and the business side is now using that to whip consumers into a frenzy,” he said.

He vows to keep pressing the regulator to force Cygames to make public its gacha techniques and winning percentages. “Honestly, the industry hasn’t improved since 2012,” he said. “I don’t think anything has changed for consumers. They’re just looking the other way.”

Here is a guy who is clearly addicted to Granblue Fantasy, has spent tons of money on it, money which by his own admission he feels is wasted because he spent it specifically wanting to "win" a character which he did not, and feels that the game is exploitative and possibly cheating consumers with false winning percentages. He is lobbying for more government oversight. That's all cool except...

He's still playing the game after all this and continues to spend money on it. And he feels "trapped". All tell tale signs of a compulsive gambling problem. While it's good to lobby for better oversight for such services, people like this also need to seek personal help or have others recommend that they seek help. Of course, the mainstream media in Japan will never talk about these things because mental illness is one of those social taboos no one wants to address. Sad all round.

 

[Error]

Do they let players know the chance of getting these super rare characters? I think these gacha game devs should at least put a table with the drop rate of these characters whenever there's an event like this, so people know exactly the odds of getting a particular characters. The way they purposely hide this behind game mechanics is what comes off a scummy practice to me.

There's no need to hide that info from players.

 

[Man God]

There's actually recent research into a possible pharmaceutical solution to gambling addiction. Fascinating stuff.

 

[Achire]

I really hope the day of reckoning is coming with regards to gambling in mobile games. The problem might be the biggest in Japan, but EU might move first with its stronger consumer protection tradition.

The same goes for the gambling shit in EA's games (buy "packs"), and I guess that's a popular model in AAA multiplayer in general? Some good ol' regulation couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of sociopaths.

 

[border]

There's actually recent research into a possible pharmaceutical solution to gambling addiction. Fascinating stuff.

Is it the same as the drugs that can supposedly help to cure or curb substance abuse? Radiolab recently did an episode covering how certainly muscle relaxers can block certain brain receptors and negate an addict's pleasurable response to drugs and alcohol.

 

[ChasingComets]

Why is any Japanese company wasting time and money making games for consoles

Exactly, everyone should just follow Konami

 

[SatoAilDarko]

Pretty sure they haven't stated this at all

“Games currently in the pipeline are all free to play,” said DeNA Chief Executive Isao Moriyasu said at an earnings briefing Wednesday.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/first-nintendo-smartphone-games-will-be-free-1447237490

 

[Man God]

Is it the same as the drugs that can supposedly help to cure or curb substance abuse? Radiolab recently did an episode covering how certainly muscle relaxers can block certain brain receptors and negate an addict's pleasurable response to drugs and alcohol.

Yep, it's part of the same research.

 

[BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO]

Why is any Japanese company wasting time and money making games for consoles

Too much completion on mobile, it's like playing the lottery IMO.

 

[tuxfool]

Too much completion on mobile, it's like playing the lottery IMO.

But lottery tickets are dirt cheap. There are many people that buy a dozen plus tickets in the hope it increases their chances. It does, but the chances of winning are still statistically unfavourable.

The difference is that in a mobile game there is a degree of control in the execution but still remain lottery ticket cheap to develop.

 

[duckroll]

But lottery tickets are dirt cheap. There are many people that buy a dozen plus tickets in the hope it increases their chances. It does, but the chances of winning are still statistically unfavourable.

The difference is that in a mobile game there is a degree of control in the execution but still remain lottery ticket cheap to develop.

This is deceptive. Many mobile games are cheap to -develop- yes, if by development we look at just the cost of programming the title, creating the assets, and designing the game. But if you think any successful mobile game, especially in the Japanese market, is cheap to make and maintain overall, you're wrong. They invest -so- much into stuff that isn't even part of the game. Everything from marketing, market studies, tons of R&D incubation before coming up with the next big time, etc. All of this can be as costly or more than the money that goes into a console game. There's a reason why all the big mobile companies in Japan hire hundreds of employees and buy up more TV advertising slots these days than videogames.

 

[tuxfool]

This is deceptive. Many mobile games are cheap to -develop- yes, if by development we look at just the cost of programming the title, creating the assets, and designing the game. But if you think any successful mobile game, especially in the Japanese market, is cheap to make and maintain overall, you're wrong. They invest -so- much into stuff that isn't even part of the game. Everything from marketing, market studies, tons of R&D incubation before coming up with the next big time, etc. All of this can be as costly or more than the money that goes into a console game. There's a reason why all the big mobile companies in Japan hire hundreds of employees and buy up more TV advertising slots these days than videogames.

Then neither my statement or the previous poster is accurate. They don't move forward on a game unless there is a high possibility of success. It isn't a lottery at all. Or at least it is mix of surefire and cheaper gambles.

 

[duckroll]

Then neither my statement or the previous poster is accurate. They don't move forward on a game unless there is a high possibility of success. It isn't a lottery at all. Or at least it is mix of surefire and cheaper gambles.

I think there is a level of risk, but not on a lottery level. It is probably more comparable to investment speculation or forex, where some people have their own systems which they have invested a lot into refining, or they pay "experts" to help them.

 

[dracula_x]

Too much completion on mobile, it's like playing the lottery IMO.

Yep. Just saw related news on Gamasutra:

Over 500 games now submitted to iOS App Store every day – http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/..._now_submitted_to_iOS_App_Store_every_day.php

500 games per day, this is insane.

But lottery tickets are dirt cheap. There are many people that buy a dozen plus tickets in the hope it increases their chances. It does, but the chances of winning are still statistically unfavourable.

The difference is that in a mobile game there is a degree of control in the execution but still remain lottery ticket cheap to develop.

Not anymore.

 

[Kasumin]

I find this aspect of the article really fascinating because of how honestly expressed his addiction is:



Here is a guy who is clearly addicted to Granblue Fantasy, has spent tons of money on it, money which by his own admission he feels is wasted because he spent it specifically wanting to "win" a character which he did not, and feels that the game is exploitative and possibly cheating consumers with false winning percentages. He is lobbying for more government oversight. That's all cool except...

He's still playing the game after all this and continues to spend money on it. And he feels "trapped". All tell tale signs of a compulsive gambling problem. While it's good to lobby for better oversight for such services, people like this also need to seek personal help or have others recommend that they seek help. Of course, the mainstream media in Japan will never talk about these things because mental illness is one of those social taboos no one wants to address. Sad all round.

I thought this bit was interesting, too. I doubt the whole gambling addiction thing will get very far for the reasons you stated. But it's sad, in a way. This guy realizes he's a victim of the system he's trying to oppose and it seems like the infrastructure in Japan just isn't willing to engage him on that level.

I don't know anything about help for gambling addictions in Japan. I mean, pachinko is a thing there... but again, mental health issues are taboo there.

This is deceptive. Many mobile games are cheap to -develop- yes, if by development we look at just the cost of programming the title, creating the assets, and designing the game. But if you think any successful mobile game, especially in the Japanese market, is cheap to make and maintain overall, you're wrong. They invest -so- much into stuff that isn't even part of the game. Everything from marketing, market studies, tons of R&D incubation before coming up with the next big time, etc. All of this can be as costly or more than the money that goes into a console game. There's a reason why all the big mobile companies in Japan hire hundreds of employees and buy up more TV advertising slots these days than videogames.

Never really thought about this aspect, actually! I guess that's kind of like an MMO. Thanks for pointing that bit out. I've been oversimplifying mobile development when I think about it, now that you mention it.

500 games per day, this is insane.

And a lot of them are probably ripoffs of each other. Sounds like complete and utter chaos.

 

[ColtraineGF]

Top mobile game business is rough. If you don't want to be some one shot game that stays on the top charts for a day before sliding down into obscurity, you have to spend constant time tweaking the game to maximize the amount of people willing to spend at the top, and make it easier for new players to join (and lapsed players to reengage). Regular daily/weekly/monthly events, constant updates, DLC - it's a lot to spend, and requires a lot of revenue to keep it up. User acquisition is tough when you have literal hundreds of other games that play the same way, and there are only so many hours in a day and so many minutes of advertising.

That said, there are enough phones out there that if you plan out for a small niche of people as a target... you'd still have to work to be noticed by that niche, especially if you're doing a game that's already been done, and doesn't look as good or play as good as competitors B through Z, and the 50 other competitors right behind them.

 

[Candescence]

I think there is a level of risk, but not on a lottery level. It is probably more comparable to investment speculation or forex, where some people have their own systems which they have invested a lot into refining, or they pay "experts" to help them.

No wonder the whole mobile industry screams "speculator bubble" to me. And we know what happens to bubbles...

 

[Terrell]

Why is any Japanese company wasting time and money making games for consoles

Because the level of success you're seeing squeezes all the money out of the market. So until you get to that same level of success, you gotta make good money elsewhere.

The sums they are making are so large that you don't need to really be in that top 1%. Obviously not everything will be a GBF level success but it's not like doing a little worse than that is all that bad.

Related, lol.

Sorry, no, there's not really a "little worse" scenario in Japan's mobile industry. Monster Strike and Puzzle & Dragons accounted for over two-thirds of ALL mobile game revenues about a year or 2 ago. 2 GAMES. The biggest names in the business there legit squeeze everyone else out of the equation. You'll never not make a return on your investment in the initial phase, but if you're expecting a high return, you're living in a fantasy world.

Game makers aren't in mobile because it's making them crazy amounts of money, they're in mobile for the PROMISE of making crazy amounts of money. It's really kinda sad.

 

[The n00b Avenger]

On a related note, Cygames actually started posting gatcha percentages in response to the outrage.

http://nlab.itmedia.co.jp/nl/articles/1603/11/news162.html

Apparently the rarest item has a .007% chance of dropping. Good luck with that.